Jenna Lyons

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Jenna: [00:00:00] It’s not that I’m resistant to change. You could change anything in my apartment. It’s hard for me to let go of the actual thing. Like I’ll be okay. I want that thing to feel that I love it, but change, I look for it. I feel more comfortable with it and I’m not sure why that is.

Jeremiah: Welcome to Ideas of Order, a podcast dedicated to answering the question, what does home mean to you? I’m Jeremiah Brent, you guys. Jenna Lyons is a force to be reckoned with. She’s a dear friend, a mother, a visionary fashion icon, celebrated for her cultivated eye that goes beyond the realm of design. From her influential roles at J.

Crew, to Ventures, now into interior design, she’s a fan favorite in the season of Real Housewives, and the founder of the lash company, Lovescene. I’m so excited to welcome her to today’s episode.

Anybody listening, we have a very important family member in the background that’s very vocal. So just letting you know, it’s There must be food in

Jenna: here, because otherwise he wouldn’t be There

Jeremiah: probably is food. Yeah, he They just hide it from me. Thanks. Food should be hidden from me. Food should be hidden from me, but it’s not hidden

Jenna: from me.

This company Jenny’s Ice Cream has, like, they send me ice cream all the time, which I love, but Are you an ice

Jeremiah: cream person? Is that your guilty choice? An ice cream person

Jenna: is a really, like, very sort of shallow version of what I am. I’m a devotee. Like, it’s a problem. It’s actually a problem. I

Jeremiah: cannot stand ice cream.

I know. I’m sorry. She’s lost, guys. Um, all right. So I wanted to talk to you and go back a little bit. You were born in Boston and then you moved to Southern California as a child. Um, can you describe for me, like what was home like for you growing up?

Jenna: Well, I had, um, we lived in a sort of quiet neighborhood called Pelsverdy.

So it was. pretty visually idyllic in the sense that, you know, it was simple. We lived in tract housing, so not fancy with our house was [00:02:00] 1500 square feet. My mom was a piano teacher. Uh, so, you know, it was quiet in the house in that sense. We didn’t watch TV or listen to music or anything like that because we couldn’t make any noise.

So, um, that was an interesting, but visually it’s beautiful. We live near the beach and I had, you know, a pretty, again, visually, like, Simple, nice upbringing. I think what was happening inside was maybe a little bit harder just because it was so quiet. And, um, my mom had some challenges and that as a kid kind of made it hard for me.

So I kind of reclused into my room and spent a lot of time trying rainbows.

Jeremiah: What was it like being in a house that was quiet all the

Jenna: time? I, you know, it’s funny, I didn’t totally understand how different my growing up was until I would go to other people’s houses and I’ll never forget there was a woman named Mrs.

Stays and she lived up the street from us and I would go over to Mrs. Stays house and like, Mrs. Stays had friends over and had dinner parties and had, there were multiple kids and there was just laughing and talking and everyone was engaged and I was like, Oh, oh, this is really different. And again, I didn’t really understand how different it was until I started to really get a sense of other people’s homes.

But I didn’t spend, you know, I would go to the state’s house every chance I get. Was

Jeremiah: there a space in your home that you really remember in particular loving the most growing up? I

Jenna: mean, I spent most of my time in my bedroom, so I guess I spent a lot of time making my bedroom look cool.

Jeremiah: Did you do it all over, over all the time?

I

Jenna: mean, I didn’t, we didn’t really have bedrooms. money to do that. But I remember my mom let me, uh, paint my room white and then I took black paint and splashed it all over the room. And you know, this was like kind of, you know, if you remember, this was the time when like black flag and the punk era was kind of big.

So I was trying to be a little rebellious, but it ended up looking kind of chic and like everything else was white in the room. And I had some stupid piece of furniture that I got white paint and painted it. And then I had Phillip William Klein photographs that I got in Paris. I mean, it was kind of cool.

Jeremiah: So you were always. into self expression, like through your space. Was it the same [00:04:00] with clothing? Like, I mean, I’m just interested to know you were doing that as a kid in your room.

Jenna: Yeah. I mean, I think I was constantly trying to make my surroundings suit what I, my visual sight line. Like I was constant need to like, Put things in a place that I wanted them to look nice.

I couldn’t get away from it. And I, and I still do it and I do it too. And it’s also a problem. Like I do it to a fault and I can’t walk into someone’s house and not be like, Ooh, wow, that shouldn’t be there. And it’s hard and it is annoying. And if you don’t like that, it’s. It’s not fun to

Jeremiah: be around. I don’t say anything anymore.

I just keep quiet. I’ve, I’ve, I do too. But like, we move hotel rooms around if

Jenna: we can. Oh, I will, I’ve gone into places and taken art off the walls and like, and said, can you please remove this chair? Like, I can’t, I don’t want to look at it if it, it, and it’s, something happens, like, and I feel better when a space is beautiful, like I’m so, I’m never doing a podcast anywhere else.

Anyone else who doesn’t, You can come here anytime you want. Only if we do it at Jeremiah’s. You

Jeremiah: describe yourself kind of as a maximalist. How do you think that kind of shows up in your style, um, both personally and in your home? I

Jenna: think if you come to my house, there is not an inch that is uncovered. Ha ha ha.

Have you always been that way? No, I think it’s, I, I think that growing up without a lot of stuff and, and such an appreciation for objects and I’ve gotten to the point in my life where I’ve been able to afford things that are Really special. When I see something that moves me, I went, I have to like I am.

I probably collect things in a way that I should not. I need to divest myself of something. Do you think you can have too many things? Yes. Yeah. Oh, have you been to my

Jeremiah: apartment? I mean, listen, I am a minimalist. I like, you know, Nate always says I’d be over.

Jenna: Well, yeah, honestly, I’m not joking. I actually I’m 100 percent serious.

I would like to You to come over and take everything out and then put only back what you want to put back. No, you would have

Jeremiah: it full again in two seconds. No, I

Jenna: wouldn’t. You don’t think so? No, no. I honestly, I need, I guess I don’t have, it’s hard. Someone else can do what you can’t do. I can’t look at things and be like, it’s time for it to go.

I was just going to ask, how do you edit it? It’s impossible. I can do it for other people. For myself, it’s [00:06:00] absolutely impossible. Just because you get emotionally attached to the things? Well, also what I realized is over time, I, you know, it’s like, I have a whole, so one of the unique things about my building is that I have two massive storage spaces in the basement.

So I have 2, 000 square feet of storage, which is crazy. One of them is carpeted and has 14 foot ceilings. The other one is like a lower one that I put like, you know, so I have. It’s filled with clothes. But what happens is like thing that I haven’t worn in 10 years comes back around and I go back down and get it or like the chair that I didn’t like.

I’m now one again. And so I have seen that cycle happen over and over again, where I’m like, I, I hate something and then I love it and I hate it and then I love it. And so I’m a little bit afraid to get rid of things, especially when they’re, you know, valuable because. No one’s gonna love it like I will.

Oh my

Jeremiah: god, you sound like my husband. He’s a maximalist too. I

Jenna: just love, I love

Jeremiah: beautiful things. And when I met him, he had a table in his house and it was like all these small like llama figurines. I’m like, what the fuck is this? Why is there

Jenna: a herd of llamas? Why do I have like 17 pieces of malachite?

Like, who needs? Who needs another malachite

Jeremiah: box? That’s beautiful. Perfect contrast. But do I need

Jenna: 17 malachite boxes? No, you don’t. No, it’s, if you look, it’s a problem. I come over what, what day do you want to come?

Jeremiah: Have you been able with, with raising your son always maximalist with the house? Oh yeah. You should see his room.

Same. Is he the same? Yes.

Jenna: And he’s the same with me. He looks around. I said to him the other day, I’m like, we should clean your room out and make it like completely, like, let’s just breathe, you know, he just turned 17. And he looked at, he goes, mom, look at the shelf. There’s nothing. Everything on here is beautiful.

I was like, Oh, God, apple tree.

Jeremiah: I think what’s really interesting to me when we talk through like the psychology of design and people and life is you have gone through some of, I think, at least from knowing you, some of the most major transitions over the last few years, career, CastingWords Sexual identity.

And so when you talk through your home and these things and you can’t let go and the resistance to change, how do you embrace change as a person that so [00:08:00] easily? It’s

Jenna: not that I am resistant to change. You could change anything in my apartment. It’s hard for me to let go of the actual thing. I’m sentiment like I’ll be okay.

I just, I want that thing to feel that I love it. I know that sounds crazy, but change. Yeah. I actually, I look for it. I feel more comfortable with it. And I’m not sure why that is. I think probably just because I’ve felt so stayed, I did everything by the book for so long. Even with in my previous career, when I was at J.

Crew, I was constantly excited. Fashion is change, fashion is the next. You’re always looking forward. And I really enjoyed that. I think, Probably serves my a DD. Yeah. That constant ability to think about, oh, well I’m, and also like in that way I’m not getting attached to that thing, but fashion, it’s nice because you, once that thing was in the store, I didn’t care about it anymore.

Would not show with the amount of clothes I have, but Yeah, exactly. I

Jeremiah: know. Speaking of, speaking of, although I clothing’s the one thing I can get on board with with you, I’m not, I’m not good at editing clothing. It’s

Jenna: hard. Well, it also comes back around, but So do things like I don’t, I know it

Jeremiah: all comes back around.

It all comes back around. I know. I was not in fashion nearly. And the level or scale or time that you were, but I was in fashion for a brief time before design. When did you know it was time to move on to something else? Because I knew just because I would sit in a photo shoot and be like, I don’t care about her.

David Web jewelry. I care about the sofa. That’s genre A. It’s in the original fabric.

Jenna: You were using a genre sofa? Yes. For David Webb commercial ? No,

Jeremiah: it was the first shoot. Oh. And I was obsessed and I was like, she’s sitting on it. It’s gonna rip something. It wasn’t me styling Rachel, but I was obsessed with the sofa and she’s like, you’re in the wrong business.

Um, Rachel. Yeah. Well, I, I was her basically, which is her lacking. Yeah. So it was her professional bitch. I just cried all over her house in the studio. It was super charming. Um, but needless to say, got out, um, love her, got out. She’s great.

Jenna: Um, I don’t know. How’d you know? No, I mean, well, I think, I don’t know what is going on with my dog.

I’m so sorry. He’s like, howling. I kind of love it. It’s so funny. [00:10:00] Um, I think a couple of reasons. That I knew first of all, the, the, the actual work, like fashion and, and interiors, I don’t know if you agree, but are so similar. It’s like finding mix of materials and a sense of proportion and a way to layer and, you know, Matt and shine and, and it’s all very, very similar.

And so tell her stories even, I mean, it’s like that all goes and that was easy. I think the part that made me realize that I needed to move is that. I was just managing. I wasn’t creative anymore. I would sit in meetings and I started to clock the amount of time that I was spending just being a manager and clock the amount of time that I was actually like inspired or looking at a magazine or getting to play with fabrics.

And it was beautiful. I mean, we were at 99. 9 to zero. It was just insane. And I was like, I wasn’t having fun anymore. And so much had changed. There were things that needed to happen at the company that I didn’t think I was the right person to, to take them there. And I also, the real issues and the thing that really happened to me and why I decided it was time to go is I remember really specifically being in a meeting and we didn’t have walls to go all the way up.

So I heard on the other side of a wall, my team saying, Oh, we’re not going to show that to her. She’s never going to go for it. And what I realized was there is this inflection point in your career where if something needs to change, if you’ve got this well oiled team, they’re making decisions on your behalf because they’ve seen you make the many times and they’re rightfully so not bringing you something because you’re like, Oh, that’s not what she likes.

So great. But the problem is when you need to change, that’s actually a hindrance. And I realized that my mere presence was probably not going to allow for the changes that needed to happen in the company. And so it was sort of a twofold decision. It was like, I wasn’t the right person to take it where it needed to go.

And I wasn’t feeling fulfilled in the way that I wanted to. And I was like, it’s time. Do you miss it?

Jeremiah: Not at all.

Jenna: Oh, good for you. It was really hard. I mean, I, I get to touch fabrics and be creative and dream. I didn’t realize, you know, I, I, I, Being bored is paramount to being creative. And I don’t think, you know, with the invention of phones and all [00:12:00] of that, I think the opportunity to be bored is paramount to being creative.

And I didn’t realize that I thought I should just work as hard as I could. And I worked till 10 o’clock at night and I was on my Blackberry, you know, Blackberry. I love my Blackberry. I know. Oh,

Jeremiah: I didn’t either.

Jenna: I would be in this email. I know I can’t do email. I could do emails And a black guy cannot do it on an

Jeremiah: iPhone.

Yeah. How do you like the client component of design? Because styling for me was a nightmare. Like I’ll be fully honest. It was an absolute nightmare. It was a grind and the work and the payoff wasn’t the same for me. And the people, I sometimes I’d be like, Oh God, I know. Um, but don’t get me wrong, design also has a complicated relationship, but how has the client relationships been with you?

Jenna: I mean, it, it really depends on the client. I think, um, having had an. multiple experiences working with people. One of the things that has the biggest challenge and that I’m trying, I’m trying to figure out the best way to approach it is most people don’t have any idea how much things cost. And that is a huge stumbling block.

And so I think they assume that I’m just picking something expensive. I’m like, Oh, no, oftentimes I’ll get people who this is their first time working with the designer or they’re so excited. They’ve never really done a house before. And that is hard because what happens is they’ve only ever seen like a restoration hardware price point.

They don’t understand that like a lamp can cost 8, 000. Right. And that that’s okay. And it doesn’t all have to be that expensive, but it is very hard. So I’ve gotten to the point where I sort of will put together a list of like, here’s what I would estimate a rug, a couch, like how did these numbers sound to you?

So that’s one thing that’s helped a little bit. The other thing that I think can be really challenging is I find that things don’t happen in an order that makes sense often. So for instance, I like to use a lot. Sometimes I’ll do a whole room. Off of some weird vintage piece. It could be a vase. It could be a painting.

It could be a table in the entire room will come around to that piece. But I can’t put that into a mood board. I don’t really do that. It’s not the way I work. I can say like, Tell me what you love. And if you like this, I can, I can create that for you, but I, I can’t actually do it in [00:14:00] order because I’m not necessarily going to find things in order and that is so hard with clients, especially if they want to prove something on a one off I’m like, listen, you like this picture.

I’m going to show you this picture. If I took every single item in this beautiful home and showed it to you in isolation, you would not like them. What’s working here is this moment. Like they’re all singing together and that is what you like. So if I show you everything on a one off. It’s never gonna work.

And that is the part that I think is the hardest. It’s all through your lens. It is. But I think people want, you know, they want approval. I get it. They’re

Jeremiah: spending money. It’s also super vulnerable. I mean, it’s your heart. I mean, it’s crazy.

Jenna: And it’s also people are, you know, there’s this thing. I think when we grow up, it’s like we understand.

We assume that a doctor is a doctor and they have a skill that we do not have. We assume if we go to a tax person, they’re going to take care of us or a lawyer. But for some reason, it’s We do not culturally understand that you do not have to, you are not supposed to understand how to design a room, so you don’t need to feel bad about it, like, no one feels bad about going to a doctor, but I think people have this weird vulnerability, as you said, of coming to someone else and saying, how should I do my house?

You’re not supposed to know, but we don’t, like, allow people to be vulnerable enough and say it’s okay for you not to know, it’s, that’s why we’re here.

Jeremiah: Yeah, and also go through the journey of the discovery, that’s the best part of the process. Do you think your style has changed, you know, personally, and?

Design wise, or is it stayed consistent? I mean,

Jenna: there’s a root that will always be. I think I will always like opposites. I will always like a mixture of materials that is very deep. I don’t particularly work well in like monitor. Like I’m just not a monotone person. I never will be. Um, I think, yeah, things change.

I find appreciation for things I didn’t find before. I get old, tired of other things. I, you know, I think that happens. I think it’s mostly, I don’t know if the styles change, but the materials and things I gravitate towards probably shift over

Jeremiah: time. I love that. How has it been for you when we talk through change, you know, kind of becoming a little bit of an icon in our little queer community?

Jenna: Oh my god, I think you’re an icon in the community. Oh yes, you are. You’re far better known [00:16:00] than I am. Everybody knows who you are. I’m a chimney sweep.

Jeremiah: Oh, you kind of are giving me a chimney sweep. I’m giving you a chimney sweep. I’m the chimney sweep of the queer community. Where did you grow up?

Jenna: Modesto.

Was it, what was it like growing up there?

Jeremiah: Um, awful. Was it? Not awful, it was actually a really nice place to grow up, but it was, you know, Trump’s America, Central, um, California. Wow. You know, and we had, we had a really beautiful life there, but, you know, I was definitely anxious to get out. How old were you when you came up?

Oh, I got 23, 24. I was old. Oh, wow. Yeah. Everybody around me knew I was gay except for me. Love that. Yeah. That’s fun for you, right? They’re like, well, yeah, that’s your girlfriend, huh? Sure. How’s your girlfriend feel about it? Yeah. Not good. I got quite a few messages. Do you feel supported and connected to the community?

Oh

Jenna: God. I mean, it’s funny. I think because I came out so late. Yeah. And. When I did come out, I was already in a relationship, so I wasn’t dating. I never really was part of any community. I mean, I don’t mean that I’m not embraced. I’m not saying, but I, I didn’t have a lot of friends that were gay other than men because that was in the fashion industry.

And, you know, I feel, um, a kinship, but I also, I know this is going to sound real, but it’s a little bit like being adopted by a family that was different than you. It’s like, I feel like I didn’t grow up that way. So I don’t feel completely like I’m a member, which is weird. And I, I’m grateful and and glad that people are proud of me for It’s a big deal.

Yeah, it’s a big deal. I think it’s nice to be embraced. I think the thing that I appreciate the most is, you know, I remember when I came out years ago, it’s often the parents that are the scared ones. It’s not the kids. Mm-Hmm. It’s the parents who are afraid. And it’s not that they don’t love their kids, it’s just that what they’re afraid of is that your kid’s not gonna be okay.

They’re not gonna find love, they’re not gonna be successful. People are gonna pick on them. And the fear is what drives. The rejection, of course, and that is the thing I found [00:18:00] most proud of is that I think people seeing me, they’re like, Oh, you look just like I thought. A regular person to me. You sound and act like a regular person and you have a regular job and you’re successful.

And so, okay, maybe my kid can be okay. And it has helped some parents move through some of their fears just from some feedback. I’ve gotten my

Jeremiah: favorite moment. Ever doing the show that Nate and I have done is that this woman came up to us It was like my son came out last week and was I was so upset and you know I didn’t handle that correctly and later that evening We were sitting on the sofa and your show came on and we saw I watched you guys with your children and your family and I looked at him and I realized that he could still have the life that I always wanted him to have and that was such a Gift and I thought to myself what that’s really All it’s about because totally, you know, I am obviously I feel like a responsibility.

I’m sure as I’m sure you do to some extent and as part of this community for visibility. Um, but I really believe that people can change. I believe in that. I really believe that I’ve seen it firsthand. Do you feel a responsibility being in the public eye? I mean,

Jenna: I think more so now. I don’t think I did originally.

I think I was so, you know, at the beginning I had so much going on when I came out and I was in, my life was just in such turmoil and things at work were just so overwhelming. And so I wasn’t really feeling any connection to anything, honestly. And it wasn’t until someone said to me, you don’t really do much for the queer community.

You should really get out there. And that is actually how I ended up. On the Real Housewives, because I did a podcast called Diking Out, and I’d never done anything. And part of me was afraid to get overly connected to, like, I didn’t want that to be my calling card. And a lot of people were like, you’d be on the cover of this magazine.

I don’t want to, that’s not what I want to be known for. Actually no one’s business, honestly. And that was sort of how I looked at it at the beginning. And now I’ve changed my perspective. And now I’m like, I want to be more present and be more vocal and be more open about it for other people. So that there’s not necessarily a sense of like shame.

And I don’t have any reservations about [00:20:00] being attached to it or talking about it. I’m actually, I feel much better about it. Not that I didn’t feel bad. I just, I was, I was resisting. Being overly connected to.

Jeremiah: That makes sense. Being queer. Well, you’re part of the family now. Thanks, babe.

You moved into your Soho loft 10 years ago. Did you know immediately that it was your home?

Jenna: Well, no. I, I don’t, I don’t know if I’ve told this story or not, I’m sure. I, I was in a crazy place. I had to find a place very quickly. Um, I, so I, this was after Hurricane Sandy, uh, the house that I was living in, the apartment that I was living in was completely demolished and grew mold.

And so I had to move out. And so I had moved very quickly into another apartment and I was like, I was spending so much money on a rental. I was like, I have to buy something. Okay. And I started looking and I, I, my job was, I was on full tilt. I looked at maybe six apartments. No, I didn’t love the apartment at all.

I walked in and I was like, this is exactly not what I wanted. Really? Yes. However, the apartment has had a very strange setup, which is these two huge storage spaces, which sexy I had had. A lot of challenges from my other apartment where I was constantly moving stuff around and taking stuff to storage and it was a nightmare.

So two huge storage spaces in the building. And on top of that, the building has no maintenance fee. And not only does it not have a maintenance fee at the, when I bought the apartment, it does not, it no longer has this after COVID, but before COVID, Got a check every month from the rentals in the ground floor downstairs.

Yeah. So I was making money living there and I was renovating and renting another apartment and I was like, financially, this actually makes a ton of sense. And so it was literally a financial choice. It had nothing to do with the apartment. The apartment was actually not nothing to speak of. It was kind

Jeremiah: of ugly.

That’s so wild. What was the design [00:22:00] process then for you? So you, you get the apartment, you’re on fire at work.

Jenna: It was crazy. You know, I had been for years, like compiling all of these things that I wanted to do in my next apartment. And it just so happened that J. Crew had been taken private not that long before, which meant that I had a nice moment there financially.

Yes. And, uh, and so it was the first time I’d actually really had enough money to do what I wanted. And so I kind of like I mean, everything I wanted. I was like, I want literally, I want like a marble head cheese bathroom and I want it to like be the biggest bathroom you’ve ever seen. And I want a brass countertop.

You know, the guys from tomorrow studio had that beautiful brass island on the cover of older interiors. And I pulled that off and I was holding onto it forever. I want more and more and more. Um, I wanted herringbone floors. I want to, you know, it’s like, I just kind of. Really put a stake in the ground of all the things that were important to me and love that went for it.

And I’m so happy I did because I had fun and it was also, you know, I had to be really careful about my choices. I had to pick anything and everything through the lens of the company and I also was really price conscious and this is the first time in my life that I got to be like, whatever.

Jeremiah: Is there anything that’s changed since you moved in?

Or is it stay consistently kind of the same? Oh, God,

Jenna: so much has changed. And it’s about to change again. It is? Yeah. I’m like, so done. I’m like, what are you going to do? I can’t. Damn it. I don’t actually totally know. Yeah. I just want to, I literally want to take everything out. I’m getting rid of my couch.

I’m getting like,

Jeremiah: is it just decorative or you want to do like a full

Jenna: change? I don’t think I can do a physical change just because there’s kids and it’s like, there’s too much going on with the children and that’s a lot. Um, but definitely decorative.

Jeremiah: I love that. I can’t wait. Next evolution. This is the perfect opportunity for you to edit.

I know. But will you? No,

Jenna: I’m, you’re coming

Jeremiah: over. I would be done. Come. I can’t wait. My, I go through this whole exercise with my clients where I’m like, is it beautiful or is it functional? And if it doesn’t [00:24:00] fit into one of those categories, then we set it into the,

Jenna: get rid of it. Well, there’s not something in my apartment that’s not going to fit into one of those categories.

Jeremiah: I’m sorry. But the problem is you’re going to make it into one of those categories. The idea is that you don’t, not everything is totally beautiful, absolutely beautiful and absolutely functional. Oh, wait, it

Jenna: has to fulfill both? No, it has

Jeremiah: to be one of those. Well, it will be one of those. It will be one.

Jenna: This is

Jeremiah: why I can’t, this is why you don’t edit. This is why. Absolutely beautiful. Okay, the only

Jenna: thing that’s going is the fucking treadmill.

Jeremiah: You need to make a pretty one.

Jenna: Honestly, yeah.

Jeremiah: They’re rough. Not, no. Something that folds away, preferably. Okay. Um, how do you, um, Can I ask, like, with everything you have going on, like, how do you create space for yourself?

Do you have any ceremonies? What do you do to recharge? You know, how do you stay connected to your creativity?

Jenna: The best thing I ever did was Take away visibility for everybody. No, no one can see my calendar. I used to have a calendar that everyone had access to and everyone could put stuff on it and it would fill up.

And I realized that a lot of times it filled up with things that didn’t really need to be on there. No one could put anything on my calendar without me and my assistant who Kate, who’s very, I know you’re very connected, but I like guard my calendar with my life and I don’t do anything that I don’t want to do.

And it has made a, Massive difference in my life, like massive. I don’t know if I can possibly, I mean, literally I was booked all day, every day through lunch, no breaks all the time. And I just never took a breath and I don’t do that anymore. And it’s made a huge difference. So it’s not necessarily about like specifically setting aside time.

It’s just really making sure that I don’t overbook myself and like I’ll block out a day. And I just block it out. And I don’t put anything on there, but I might go to a museum. I might lay in bed. Like, it doesn’t matter. Ugh,

Jeremiah: honestly, my girlfriend calls it the beautiful no. I’m so bad at that. Um, I’ve

Jenna: gotten much better.

But you have to do it. You do, and it makes a huge difference. Yeah. It’s hard to do.

Jeremiah: It’s, oh my god, it’s hard [00:26:00] for me to sit at home on a Saturday if it’s raining. I have a good problem.

Jenna: That’s a problem. I know. I will say like leaving my job was a good, like I just completely ripped the, like ripped it apart and I had to stop.

And it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Jeremiah: Are you obsessed about like keeping your house clean and everything’s in the right spot? No, no. Even with the teenage son? No. You just chill?

Jenna: I mean, someone comes and cleans it twice a week and I, in between, it’s absolute chaos. I’m not a neatnik. I mean, I, I want things to be clean and I care for my things and I do put things back, but I’m not obsessed.

You’re not like David Beckham with

Jeremiah: his hangers. No. Yes. But I mean, love that. Do you know what he? Did, did you watch that document? I’m in

Jenna: the middle of watching it. Victoria was just at my house the other day and she’s great. And I love her, but she’s so, she’s so easy. She came in, but she came to my apartment.

She noticed everything. Yeah. Literally. Quick as a whip too. It was unbelievable. I watched her, she scanned the entire room and she went right over to this and right over to that and she, I mean, she noticed everything. I know. I’m into it.

Jeremiah: Yeah. She’s super smart. But the thing that he did that, the one thing that really resonated with me the whole thing is that he sets his outfits out for the week and I thought that is a really beautiful way to live.

I can’t

Jenna: do that though. Really? No, because I, first of all. You just change your mind? For most of the time I just wear what’s on the floor from yesterday. Yeah. But if I don’t do that, I will absolutely like, I, It depends on how I feel. I don’t know how I’m going to feel on Friday.

Jeremiah: Is it true that you have a new cat?

I do. We rescued a cat. You did? I just got a new cat too.

Jenna: He’s a

Jeremiah: terrorist. First of all, have you ever had a cat

Jenna: before? No, this is my first cat and

Jeremiah: I’m, I’m It is fucking awful for us. I don’t know how it’s going for you.

Jenna: It’s kind of a nightmare. He’s tearing apart the furniture. Yeah. And he’s, he literally will go, whatever thing is on the edge of the counter, he’ll go over and hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it until it falls over.

This morning I’m laying in bed and I hear, I was like, really? Two of the things he’s broken have been valuable. That’s hers. And he’s, and he’s grabbed a [00:28:00] plant and ripped it off of a plant. Yeah.

Jeremiah: I found her in our, I have an olive tree in the entrance of the house and I found her in the olive tree because apparently cats, like, it’s like catnip, an olive tree.

Oh shit. I mean, you know what I’ve gone through to get, keep that fucking thing alive? I can only imagine. And I, we got a cat cause I was like, this is great. Poppy’s wanted one for so long. Oh, it was intentional. Yes, she earned it. At least you found yours.

Jenna: I know. She was just like literally at a deli for five days.

And our neighbors, our friends found the cat and were like, they took it home to take care of it. And their, their dog lost, like, literally was like, absolutely not. I was going to get the cat. And they’re like, do you want to take it? And I was like, Oh, okay. What’s his name? Charlie. Oh, he’s more like Chuckie.

Yeah.

Jeremiah: Charlie, the

Jenna: Chuckie cat. He’s an orange cat and he’s an absolute terrorist.

Jeremiah: Was it weird for you? Um, to just because when you talk through, I know how much home your home means to you and obviously what it’s served for you for the last 10 years. Was it weird to invite like the world in with housewives and everything?

Jenna: Honestly, no, I’m not super I don’t know. Um, I don’t know. I don’t really have that weird sense of like privacy and provide. Obviously. I mean, you can’t if you are doing. I don’t know why. I’m not sure why that is. I think I think I’m just like, so happy to have people around.

Jeremiah: Yeah, I feel the same way. I’ve never been weird about it.

I’m like, yeah, come on over. I don’t know why. Yeah. Why do you think people are so enamored with your house and your space?

Jenna: I think it’s just like, there’s just so much to look at. Well, then

Jeremiah: that’s a little bit of an

Jenna: understatement. There’s a lot to look at. I think also, most of the, I am probably one of those people who enjoy taking risks.

And I think people are often, you know, like, I can’t believe you painted your hallway so dark. Or I can’t believe you did all this marble and this huge, like, because I usually try to, you know, Have this thing called a totalizing gesture, which is my thing. It’s like, if you’re going to do it, just go big.

Don’t, don’t do a, like a splash of color. I don’t believe in, I don’t think it actually works. I feel

Jeremiah: about an accent

Jenna: wall. It stresses me out. An accent wall or an accent. Commitment issues. I’m like, no, I have, yeah, I’m like, go big or don’t do it at all. And so I think for a lot of people, it’s like that permission of [00:30:00] like, Oh, Most people when they come over, they’re like, Oh, I can’t believe you like have a pink couch.

Like I would never do that. Or you painted your hallway dark. I would never do that. And I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if anyone’s an emperor, but I think people are usually, and it’s also the mix of materials are unusual. Like most people don’t have a brass countertop. They’re like, I didn’t know you could do that.

Or all of my doorknobs are insanely high. Cause. I’m really tall. Because you’re not short. And I like to pretend that I’m French.

Jeremiah: Were they like 46

Jenna: inches high? They’re so insane. They literally, on cast, they’re at her armpit. Oh

Jeremiah: wow. She’s not tall. She’s a baby. She’s so perfect. She’s tall. I feel tall next to her.

Do you think, um, this is your forever home? No.

Jenna: Really? No. No. I don’t. Where do you see yourself? I want to be out

Jeremiah: at the beach. You do? Yeah. Do you have a house

Jenna: out there? Yeah. Both. We both do. And I think we’re probably going to try and figure out, like, do we? Yeah. We would both like to end up there, I think.

It’s just, I grew up by the beach. I, New York for me, at this point in my life, has gotten a little chaotic. I like being here and I want to be Always have a place here, but I think I would probably get something a little smaller. And, um, and I think I, I just love being out there. Yeah.

Jeremiah: I feel that way too.

I’m, I love the city and it gives so much. Um, but I, especially with our two young kids, I like strangely lately just miss land, I know, you know, in a

Jenna: Vista. And also like, Food that I, that going to the farmer’s market and getting corn, it’s, I don’t know. I’m not as enamored by New York as I used to be. Well, that’s the

Jeremiah: one thing, the one thing that LA does right is their food.

Oh, it’s so true. I’m like, I would kill for a good kitchen here,

Jenna: folks. Right. Yeah. Can we please, where is my ear one? I want a 75 smoothie. Honestly,

Jeremiah: what would I do for that smoothie? Make me buy her one. Do you go to that new one by in Soho? There’s a brand new, like, it’s like the New York

Jenna: Erewhon. Oh, it’s, I just opened, uh, yeah, the, what is it called?

Something grocer.

Jeremiah: I don’t know. Happy grocer. Yeah. Have you gone

Jenna: to it yet? I know, which is so funny. They follow me and I was like,

Jeremiah: I think that’s where I’m going to go next. My tattoo parlor is right around the corner.

Jenna: I just got my first tattoo. Who’d you go to? So I was at, Jack Atenoff and Margaret Qualley’s wedding, and they had a [00:32:00] tattoo artist at the wedding.

Taylor Swift gave a 15 minute speech that was unbelievable. I’m like, that girl, I’m like everything about her. I changed

Jeremiah: my whole, I changed my whole tone around

Jenna: her. I was blown away. I was really late to the party. I was too. Yeah. Now I’m into it. I’m into it. Yeah. Well, they, we both got, we held hands and got a line across.

So when we hold hands, it’s so

Jeremiah: cute. Yeah. It’s very addicting. You got to be careful. And I have a guy that you don’t even really feel it. What? Yeah. Who? He has like a special needle. Is it Scott Campbell? No, it’s Mr. K.

Jenna: Mr. K. Oh, I’ve seen his. Mr.

Jeremiah: Epping. It’s right around the corner. It’s not far from you. Okay.

Let’s go. Um, all right. Should we get matching ones? Let’s go. We have our new rainbow flag logo.

Jenna: That’s not a bad idea. How many do you have?

Jeremiah: I have like 15. Really? Yeah. But they’re all really subtle. They are. They’re really bad ones that are hidden. Like carpe diem across my back. No. Yeah. How big? It’s big enough to where my mother goes, well, at least you’ll give the boys something to read.

It’s like, that’s lovely. And awfully presumptuous of your mother. Your mom said that? Yeah. How old were you when you got that? I was 18. I was like a surfer. And I was like, I don’t know, bro. You gotta live your life.

Jenna: I wish, like, I want to see some pictures of you as the surfer boy. I had bleach blonde hair.

We were

Jeremiah: taking care of each other in so many ways. We still are. Just today, our lives took quite a shift. Wow. Um, thank you for coming today. Oh my God.

Jenna: Thank you for having me. It’s so nice to see you. That’s so fun. Yeah, it’s so fun. Next time we do dinner. Keep talking. Yes, please. Dinner. We could do tattoo, grocery store, and dinner.

Oh, and vintage. And then editing. Yes. We have a lot to

Jeremiah: do. Do you vintage shop for clothes?

Jenna: For clothes? Yeah. Yeah. Obsessed with denim. I only buy vintage denim. I am obsessed. No one does nice denim anymore. I like, I will vintage shop for pretty much anything.

Jeremiah: I found some really good vintage denim on Etsy.

Do you go on there at all? Oh, yeah. I’m okay. I’m Etsy. Yeah, you’re probably, Etsy is a [00:34:00] treasure trove.

Jenna: It really is. Yeah. The guy who’s the CEO is on the board of Shake Shack, and I’m on the board of Shake Shack, so I, I get to talk. I

Jeremiah: really vari the Le Shake Shack. Oh, I know,

Jenna: right? Don’t you just want a burger right now?

That sounds so good. We could go get one. Oh my God.

Jeremiah: I just wanna say a special thank you to Jenna. I love seeing her. I love our chats and reconnecting. I’m excited to see the next evolution of Jenna Lyons, not only her apartment, but what she does next in life. And I’d love to hear more about the special places in your life that maybe you’ve shared with a loved one.

Be sure to post, comment, or tag us on Instagram at ideasofordercaliforniaclosets. Ideas of Order is a California Closets podcast. Thanks to the team behind the scenes, this episode has been produced by Rachel Senatore and Rob Schulte at the Surround Podcast Network by Sandow Design Group.