What are the elements of a vibe?

Faraz: [00:00:00] welcome to Sense of Space. This is a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with. I’m Faraz Shah.

Ella: I’m Ella Hazard. How are you,

Faraz Shah?

Faraz: I’m doing very well, Ella Hazard.

Ella: Good. I’m glad to hear it. excited to talk about, the elements of a vibe, like what makes a vibe. So that’s, that’s what’s

on deck. But first and foremost, like, how the heck are you doing?

Faraz: doing pretty well. Um, I feel like this is going to end up being a recurring theme. but I spent my last week going down a YouTube rabbit hole. again. This may turn into a bit of an AA thing. But, I was watching some late night YouTube videos. Uh, as one does. And I got sucked into this show that’s called, um, Walkie Talkie.

so it’s a, it’s a photographer. Um, his name’s, Paul Boldinato, and he’s this New York based photographer. And he basically does these videos where he walks around with street photographers who are either in the city, visiting the city, or sometimes he’s on other locations, but he does these great interviews with them and understands a little bit of day in the life of, of what they do. super interesting, right? They talk about their process and what kind of draws them in. you know, there’s this like focus on people and everyday life and kind of these moments.

There’s some really interesting conversations. One of the highlights from from this was a photographer. His name is Trevor Wisecup. He’s a younger photographer. You know, like his whole thing is he’s about like, kind of, it’s this duality between confrontation and permission, right? So, you know, you’re in New York City, you’re walking around, and you’re taking photos of, of these moments of life.

And sometimes people don’t always appreciate that. And I think there’s an interesting dichotomy. But the more I watched these, right, so Trevor’s was interesting, he’s really entertaining, um, the more I watched, I started to kind of pick up on something that was really interesting, was that a lot of these photographers, they start out by shooting the city, right?

Like, they’re actually looking at buildings, right? It’s, it’s the architecture, it’s the design of, of the city, but at the end of the day, like they all transition into kind of observing, um, life, and appreciating those moments, but it drills even further down into people?

Ella: Hmm.

Faraz: And I thought, you know, it’s something really interesting because I think there’s a lot of parallels to design, right?

Even in some of our other conversations we’ve had, or maybe we will have in the future, you know, you, you go through this process of, of doing design, doing architecture, and you’re, you’re trying to find what that genre is, right? Like, what fits in? What is architecture? What’s design? Um, how is it supposed to be done?

Who’s supposed to be able to participate in it? What’s it supposed to look like? You end up going through the same process that a photographer does, too, of having to think about composition, depth, like complexity, simplicity, right? Like, what do you keep? What do you remove? But at the end of the day, it ends up all coming back to

people.

Ella: People. Yeah.

that’s really cool. I like the way that you describe it. It starts out with sort of buildings, ends up with people, and then somewhere in between there has to be some sort of, like, capturing of, like, the interaction between those two, or, like, what, what the buildings are, sort of, or, like, the environment around people are, sort of.

I guess composing or giving for people to react to, respond to, or

interact with somehow, right?

Faraz: absolutely. And I think you hit the nail on the head, like that that interaction is where, where it’s at, right? Right. None of these exist in a silo, right? It’s not just the person just kind of exists in the void, and it’s not just a building that exists in land, like, people have to be in the buildings.

People have to be in those spaces. And yeah, I think it gets quite interesting and complex.

Ella: Interesting. I love this. I definitely want to check that out. Question about this. Was there, so I understand that it sort of centers or like lands in the people for them and for you, but is there something specific that the, like, is there a common thread about what it’s like, what these photographers are looking for, like what good looks like to them, like what’s intriguing or like spicy or like juicy for them to capture, like what

defines.

Faraz: I think that it’s actually what’s interesting is that the common thread is that the photographers are challenging those expectations. Right? And this is one of the things that I thought was really interesting as I was going into this rabbit hole. Yeah, there were some photographers who, you know, they were looking for permission to shoot certain types of subjects or to, like, shoot in black and white versus color,

because there’s expectations, just culturally, societally, of, like, what street photography is supposed to be, and, like, should the, like, person be looking at the camera, or does that take away from the [00:05:00] integrity of the image?

is it exploitative to be, like, taking photography or photos of poverty, right? Things like that, all these considerations, and I think the common thread is that people want to challenge those expectations and push some of those boundaries to be able to find something that resonates with them, right?

Like,

Ella: Mm hmm.

Faraz: maybe that thread is there’s a search for personal meaning.

Mm

Ella: quotes, real. Like, what’s the, what’s the reality or what’s like a truth that can be

shared, right?

Faraz: that was such a, an interesting journey to hear all of these photographers. And, you know, it was kind of cool seeing some of these videos because it was a range of young photographers, like early 20s, to people who are more established, more mature, you hear a lot of the same things from that side of trying to look for that, that truth.

Ella: I love that. That’s a good, you, you have, you always, you really do have good YouTube

rabbit holes, I feel

Faraz: You know, the algorithm knows me.

It understands

me.

Ella: I was like, could you share this algorithm? I feel like between your YouTube and Moti’s TikTok,

Faraz: Right.

Ella: I’m getting some version of like, of, of social media. That’s like secondhand.

Faraz: You know, we’re just prepping the AI overlords to be good

caretakers of us as a society

right now.

Ella: There you go. you want to be

on the good side of things

Faraz: Yeah, exactly.

But how, how have you been? What have you been up to

Ella?

Ella: this is my first week back in the saddle. I’ve been on vacation doing a whole lot of nothing, which has been awesome. I won’t lie. Um, part of what I was reading and like thinking about over the course of my trip was Like why we travel to different places.

I was in mexico. I didn’t go that far but like You know, trying to like go experience, like, why do we leave where we are? Which is to like go in some ways, experience something new and different with like food, smells, sights, sounds, language, like all of these things. And I like, it kind of actually strikes me that that’s kind of what we’re here to talk about today, which is like a whole new vibe, right?

Like I wanted to go try, try on a vibe and like have a different experience that kind of offers new perspective and puts our, our, I guess, our current lives into perspective. So that was like helpful. Um, and. really freeing. And so I’m kind of excited to explore this topic and I guess Understand maybe from you, like you’re a creator of vibe, right?

In so many senses, designers are, I’ve, I’ve been thinking in my head, as we were like working our way up to this episode, like, like who are the different kinds of, like, what are the different vibes? And we can talk about it in terms of like built environment, but I also realized like event designers, like there are all kinds of like, vibe doesn’t have to be permanent.

And in some ways, like, The less permanent it is in some ways, the better, right? It’s like kind of ephemeral. So I don’t know. Tell me, what do you think if we, are you okay? If we just like talk about this now,

I’m kind of

Faraz: Sure. Yeah, let’s jump in. I mean,

Ella: Like, what do we think are like the core elements?

Like, Oh, like what, like, is it just like our senses? Like, what do you think?

Faraz: a lot Just because this is actually what we get paid to do also, so that’s helpful. But you know, I Turf, as some of you may or may not know, right? We work on acoustic products. So we, we focus on at least one of those senses, if not two, maybe three actually. Um, but what’s been really interesting is that it isn’t just one, right?

Like if you think about, um, a vibe, it’s got a hit on all of them and maybe it’s not just the five, right? It’s actually like that sixth sense and not in the, like the Bruce Willis kind of way, but in the. Like sense of self kind of

way

Ella: Yeah, Yeah,

I hadn’t heard of this actually until Neocon and the conversation that you had with Carolyn there, actually. She brought up the term, I think what you’re describing is like proprioception?

Faraz: proprioception exactly,

Ella: Okay, I had to like, I had to fully google this in complete honesty.

I was like, what does this mean? And I came up actually with some other like, interesting, there was two different terms. It was proprioception and interoception

were two different things.

Faraz: not familiar with the second one. What’s that? What’s

interoception?

Ella: proprioception, in my understanding, I’m going to paraphrase the internet, and say that I think that’s like, kind of like your, your body’s ability, or kind of like a muscle memory of like your body’s awareness of what to do in space.

And then interoception is like knowing how space works. space makes you feel inside. Like what that’s evoking in you. Like, so one is like more of a, like a kinesthetic thing. And the other was like maybe more of a, like an emotional thing, which I thought were like really cool.

Or like maybe like a

Faraz: I actually really really like that

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: Yeah, I mean it’s it’s actually something that’s really I think important, but like, even as we go through some of that research, like even thinking about that, that connection of being able to articulate and identify,

[00:10:00] you know, how you’re feeling like, that’s actually kind of a big deal,

right?

Ella: Yeah, absolutely. I guess I would say from my own personal experience, like, I think from the interoception side, if we’re, if I’m interpreting this properly, like, I can understand, like, when I walk into a space, like, my whole life, like, how something made me feel.

And I think as a designer, like, understanding now, with, like, a body of experience and a wealth of experience behind, how to create that feeling for myself and for other people. But I think also, like, learning to identify and, like, specifically name how I feel, like, it’s taken me time

and therapy and, like, the, the wheel of emotions to, to, like, understand how to give language to, like, that feeling.

And I, like, that’s something that, like, I think I’m still learning how to do. How are you, like, where are you at

with all that?

Faraz: You know, I echo that, like, it’s taken years of therapy to be able to articulate that. But also, like, I’m noticing that, you know, this isn’t something that either one of us maybe had planned. been taught in school, right? Like I went through an industrial design program and this was nowhere in the curriculum.

What was it like for you?

Ella: Not at, not at all. And I think, I mean, I don’t think it was part of the conversation at large. And I think that that’s maybe in some ways tied to the sort of our broader understanding of that not all of us experienced things the

same way. And like, not all of us learn the same way, not all like, right.

Like there’s, we, we had a pretty narrow for a long time definition of what normal and like what the sort of expected response to something was. And I think that’s starting to shift,

which feels helpful.

Faraz: 100%. I think that actually like what you’re, you’re talking about is so important. It’s nuance, right?

We’re not all the same. So how do we treat design with respect to that.

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: And I, you know, I think there’s some really, um, like key topics there, right? And I think part of it is just being able to acknowledge, right, that that’s the case, right?

That it’s not one size fits all design. And I think the other one is even asking yourself, right, as a designer, or someone who, you know, practices this, What are things that you can do to either take into consideration certain populations or certain ability levels, certain senses, maybe more, uh, more sensitively, I guess?

Ella: Yeah. how do we, how do we become more empathetic as designers and creators of space, and like how do you, how do you better learn, so if you were to remove sight, for example, and just walk or be in a space that, like, following by your ears or using sound, like how do you, how do you put yourself in the position of, differently abled people, um, and understand that like any one of those senses could, could be more impactful to a certain individual.

And how do we use that empathy to create like the spaces or a variety of spaces so that there’s, you know,

room for everyone.

Faraz: Totally. And I’ll even add some more color to that we were working on, um, one of our recent color

launches. And part of the research that connected to some of the, um, continuing education work, there’s, I think, like a baseline understanding that, um, there’s a lot of bias, sensory bias towards sight, being able to see

things. And that ends up being I mean, honestly, right? The bulk of what design school is, right?

Whether you’re in architecture, interior design, um, industrial design, whatever, right? Even graphic design, right? Um, it’s all about what you can see, like color, scale, shape, form, right? All of those things end up impacting major design decisions, but then there’s all of these other senses that you have to take into consideration, right?

So when you’re talking about like that sound walk, it’s putting. The acoustics of a space or an experience at the forefront. So we had this conversation with, um, with Kim Terry Kim. She’s an acoustician and, um, really just super smart person. And she was walking us through this process called a sound

walk, where you basically go into a space and you’re just listening.

Nothing more, right? So this is a project you’re working on, right? As an architect, you can come in, or a designer, you can come into a space, take note of what it is you’re, you’re hearing. So you’re being this really active observer and saying, okay, well, if I hear traffic, do I hear HVAC? Are there, conversations that are spilling in from adjacent areas?

And then the next part of that process is asking yourself, is that a problem? Is that something that bothers

you? And I think maybe that’s not always an easy

answer.

Ella: I think that’s true. It’s making me now think of like, [00:15:00] could you do like a smell walk? Could you do a vibe walk? Like, like, how do you, like, what are the other things that like you could, like, I’m trying to figure out how would you not isolate, but like how, like with intention move through space and understand like

all of those aspects.

And I don’t know that you

could do them all.

Faraz: not programming like open office desking right next to a

bathroom, right? That may affect your smell walk, right?

Ella: Or that person that always needs to microwave something with tuna fish in it at lunch. And like, not having that next to, yeah. But I wonder, like, I’ve always wondered about that, like, scent scapes. Like, smell is so important to me. And like, I’m one of those hippie dippie people that’s always burning a candle or incense.

Or like, I’ve got something going. But I also realize, That that to other people could be like incredibly offensive. Right. If like, there’s,

did you just

Faraz: I just sniffed a candle?

None of our

viewer, uh,

Ella: Love it.

Faraz: can, can see

that.

Ella: Favorite.

Faraz: a very nice candle.

Rob: Can I pop in for a quick second?

sorry, this won’t

be part of the think it’s great. Doug, our producer is going to be a guest.

Wow. Rob, what do you

Big, big stuff happening. there’s a big thing going on right now where American culture is a

scent

Faraz: Oh, tell me more about

Rob: And how, take it for what it is based on like the two Tik TOKs I saw, but, uh, there were some people from, I believe the UK who were saying they couldn’t connect. What the smell of fresh cut grass was, but an American’s like, Oh, it smells like fresh cut grass.

And they’re like, Oh, I never even thought about that. But like, we are a culture with like, we connect sense to things and memories.

Ella: I wonder why that, that’s a really interesting thing, Rob. And maybe this should be a part of the conversation. Cause I wonder if it’s also like partly like, Like a cultural thing. We’re a country that’s made up of a lot of different mixes of culture and like culture is connected to memory and like sense of history and like place and past and so sense of places that were familiar like I wonder if that’s like rooted in like just the way that this

country was founded.

Faraz: We could probably do an entire episode where we change the name of our podcast to

Scents

of Space.

Ella: Oh, oh, Oh,

Faraz: Come on, guys!

Rob: and I wonder if just to add to your point, Ella, if. Something like, just the different topography and, like, zones of, like, such a large country. Like, I live in the desert now, and I haven’t smelt fresh cut grass in years, right? But immediately, what am I gonna think of when I got tasked as a chore when I was 14 to mow the lawn,

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: That’s super interesting. Yeah, and my experience in the Midwest was allergies. So, like, you couldn’t even appreciate it because you were just

gonna, like, sneeze yourself to death.

Ella: You’re like, that looks like death right there. That’s a pile of death.

Faraz: Yeah, flowers. Mm mm.

the reason I was smelling that candle is. I, I think that you are exactly right. That scent is a huge part of this. Um, even showrooms in uh, in Neacon, right? Or Jordan

Econ.

Ella: had candles going, didn’t

you?

Faraz: We did, and this is one of said

candles. It smells wonderful. Um, good medicine for anybody. Uh, that’s the name of the

brand. Oh, got it. plug.

Ella: There you go.

Faraz: but we were actually really intentional about it, right? We brought in fresh flowers,

some eucalyptus, uh, we had candles, which I’m not really sure we actually had permission to light.

Oops! Um, Ask forgiveness.

For forgiveness. Sorry, Mart. Um, and then we also actually, we opened the windows in our showroom, which I didn’t realize this, but not all of the windows in that building worked.

So we cracked it and like you actually had this draft and it was like one of those things where when you walk into the space for context, right, the rest of that building is a little bit stuffy. Right. Um,

So when you walk into space and it smells really nice, you’ve got a breeze, right? So it’s like

that

Ella: Tactile. Yeah,

you feel

Faraz: right?

Sensory experience. We had awesome music going. So, you know, acoustically, you’ve got a, an interesting kind of vibe and experience going. Visually, it’s something compelling. we had cocktails, so you had taste, but like you had to activate all of those senses to create. That vibe and that experience. So you’re 100 percent

correct. It’s all of those

things.

Ella: I love that. I think that’s something that I feel like really strongly, personally about, like in my own space, in my personal space, and I feel like I’m very good at doing that here, in my home, or like any place where I would consider it, like, mine. Like an office or, you know, whatever. I think what’s interesting is I realize, looking back at my past as a designer, I have designed some, like, Horribly insensitive space, it’s like great [00:20:00] for like, you know, daily users, but for people that have to like be there long term, or I haven’t, I have designed things that I’m like looking back at it, like, maybe that was not the most considerate or, and, or like didn’t fully consider all of the senses, um, or wasn’t considering all of the users maybe, and so I would probably do that differently

now.

Faraz: do you think the I mean, because you came from an architecture background, what do you think the responsibility is of architects and interior designers? Or maybe it’s the opportunity, maybe not just responsibility to create spaces that are I think not just like well intentioned but like functional for different ability levels or different sensory experiences.

Ella: Yeah, I think, well, I have a lot of thoughts about this. Like, I’m gonna break it down into, like, two or three different components. One is, I think we have a huge responsibility, but I think we’re just sort of waking up to the fact that this is a thing that we should, like, not just design to ADA, but, like, maybe beyond that, that’s, that there’s some importance and or validity and or, I don’t know, user satisfaction.

And I think The other piece of this is, like, the operations side of things. So, maybe the one comment I would say is that, like, bringing folks in from, like, the ops side, the maintenance side, like, like, they, like, you can, you, the architect can do so much, but if it doesn’t work with what, actually, how the space is going to be used, maintained, upheld, and operated, like, those things have to work in concert, and, like, you have to make sure, I think, it’s on us, To at least invite those people into the conversation.

To make sure that what we give them or make for them is, will be Useful and upheld in the way intended, or maybe, maybe not in the way intended. Maybe this is the other point is that like, we don’t ever really have to eat our own cooking, right? Like, like we don’t do a very good job of like checking. We’re very good at like theorizing about what something like what a space will do.

But how often do we actually go back at the end of something and like, we don’t have to live with it, somebody else does. And so I’m wondering if there’s maybe a bit of responsibility on our sort of Post occupancy, uh, follow up, and or maybe on the front end, designing spaces that are flexible, so if it doesn’t work exactly as intended, there’s some sort of wiggle room for the occupants, so they’re not sort of pinned into something that isn’t suitable for them.

Faraz: it’s a bit of a double edged sword, I think, where on the one hand, I think there’s a need to have those conversations and like you’re saying we don’t really Maybe it’s make the time to go in after the fact and understand, like, what the impact was.

But, at the same time, I also wonder, like, do I, as a designer, feel equipped through education or, you know, even being in the profession now for a long time?

Do I feel equipped to be able to have that that knowledge now? Like, I feel like we’re having to actively go out and pursue and seek out some of this information and guidance from, you know, experts. It’s not it doesn’t feel that readily available or that part of the the conversation

right now. Like, we’re just on the cusp, I

think.

Ella: I agree with that. I guess, well, I think that there’s also like a huge burden on architects and designers to help Or they feel like they need to educate their clients. And it’s not like, I’m not, I’m gonna say this badly bear with me, but it’s like, how do we make better clients? And it’s not putting the burden on our clients, but it’s saying like, how do we, like where are the tools and the resources so that we can all have a good conversation and come to this the table with like a good understanding of what’s actually important and are we values aligned and what we’re trying to achieve here, you know?

Faraz: Yeah. That’s probably going to vary from client to

client. And I think, you know, we were talking a little bit about this offline where it may even vary regionally. Where like, that nuance, right, that happens on so many different

levels.

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: You know, that sound walk conversation we were talking about. what would that look like on the East coast? versus the Midwest, like the middle of

Iowa.

Ella: Yeah. Like, expectations,

Faraz: Right.

Ella: Or like, what you’re accustomed to?

Faraz: Absolutely. I think that’s, I mean, I I’ve, I’m on these conference calls with, um, folks in New York and every now and then. You know, you’ve got a fire truck, an ambulance, police cars, whatever. And like, it’s just casually happening as if it were background

noise. And I’m just thinking back to myself, you know, I grew up in the Midwest.

It was really quiet. If I heard any of those things, it’d be like, holy shit, what’s going down? Do I need to turn on the news? Like, what’s, what is up?

Ella: Yep, something’s going down.

Faraz: Right? So like, even if I’m thinking through this as a designer, right? Well, how do I treat, a space [00:25:00] of the sound like that doesn’t get transmitted or, Is it a problem? Do I need to deal with it?

Ella: Yeah. I guess maybe also curious, like, because of where you’re geographically located, but, but also because of what you do, like, what is your personal sort of preference for like noise levels? And does that change throughout the course of like, for different experiences? Like what,

what are you

Faraz: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t consider myself, um, like hypersensitive to, to any particular noise for the most part,

but I can definitely tell you that there are preferences for noise and other, just other sensory stimulation, depending on what I’m doing. Anyway, if I think about that as far as work goes, right, if I’m doing heads down work, right, I need a space.

Like right now, I don’t have really any lights on. I’ve got some mood lighting, um,

Ella: You are wearing a black, a black shirt in a dark room. It is a floating head.

Ha ha ha.

Faraz: know, that’s a happy spot for heads down work. Um, but I also like to have music going and also like my personal preference in music could. maybe be irritating for others, right? But that for me is something that I feel like I’m in the zone.

if I’m trying to extrapolate that to an architect or a designer, right? It’s like you’re matching up the nuance of the individual with the nuance of the the task or the programming and trying to find some kind of happy spot where you’re kind of considering all of those elements and trying to come up with a solution that feels relevant

Ella: Yeah.

And I, I,

guess it also makes me kind of think about like, well, what’s the objective? Is it to make people happy in space, comfortable, uncomfortable, productive? Like what are, like, what are we looking to achieve with this? You know?

Faraz: I

Ella: I

Faraz: it’s a, it depends,

right?

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: And maybe that’s the big takeaway, though, is that there isn’t a clear

answer.

Ella: Yeah.

that’s fair. I have like, a weird aside about like, objectives and like, clients. Which is, one of the books I was reading on vacation was um, a book called Visual Thinking. By a woman named Temple Grandin, and we can talk more about this book at some other point, but this is a person who self identifies as being on the spectrum, but doesn’t use that as a part of their identity, but she’s a designer, but she doesn’t design for people.

She

designs for animals.

Faraz: Oh,

interesting.

Ella: It’s so in so much that like she came to sort of big fame or like acknowledgement around her design work to make the cattle shoot experience more real. pleasant for, for slaughterhouses, essentially,

which is like a very bizarre thing. So like the objective there was actually efficiency, like the, like the ranchers couldn’t understand why cattle, uh, weren’t going down a chute.

And so her, her first inclination was to

just get Get in the chute and like see what the cattle are experiencing, like first hand. But what she attributes this to in this book where she’s talking about some of her previous experience was like the willingness to do that had never occurred to anybody else.

But in some ways because of her need to see things visually and to like experience it, like she, she couldn’t not do that. And so she attributes that to the way that her brain works. And we can know whether, whether that’s because of her sort of position along the continuum of humanity or what have you, but like the fact that, I don’t know, the way that she’s inherently wants to see things or the way that her brain works allows her to problem solve in a completely different way.

And I thought then to design in a different way, which I thought was really kind

of cool.

Faraz: that brings up an aspect of this that if I had to give one wish of what I wanted architects and designers to take away from this is just ask yourself the question, right? Like, Am I thinking about other people in very different ways, right? Is it about their sensory experience?

Is it how they perceive senses? And, you know, is there more weight given to some over the other, just asking the question, I think, is a great place to

start.

Ella: Yeah. Well, the

No, but I think like the common theme I see there is like the sound walk is like

getting in the cattle shoot, right? It’s just

like how do you how do you do like forcible

empathy?

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: Sure, but like what she found in that example was that there was like, there was either like a rope that was hanging across it that like the cattle would register as like snake or like threat or like, The light in a weird way, like startled them.

And so they wouldn’t go in and it [00:30:00] was creating stress, which actually is not helpful for the end product of meat as well. But like in that analogy, transferring back to humans, like what is the equivalent of like harsh lighting or like something that looks out of place or lines that are jarring or something that like signals threat to us as humans, right, in spaces.

And I think we do this all the time without

really knowing it.

Faraz: totally. I actually think that, um, you know, whether we talk to talk about that in a future or past episode, TV, but like, that is a huge element of biophilia, right? And being able to take these instinctual responses to stimulus, and think about it as part of design, right? Like Where do you position your desk?

Like, do you like having your back towards other people that could feel very vulnerable? And like, it is these, like, almost primal, instinctual responses to stimulus.

Ella: I, I kind of love that. I think, I, I know we think of ourselves as like, at the top of some sort of food chain. I don’t know that I believe that. I think we’re kind of like, we’re in the mix with everybody else. I’m like, at the core, we’re still kind of, we’re animals, right? Like, that, that lizard brain is still in here, and we’re still responding to, like, these primal things, and, like, in this very anxious society that we live in, like, you’re right.

There are things that we can do as designers, if we’re conscious about this, and get in touch with that sort of, What did I call it?

Interoception is the word. Learning new words today. Um, that like being able to identify, Ooh, how do I feel right now? Inside translate that towards something that’s like usable and actionable.

And then I guess also help other people to do that so that they can voice how they feel as well. Right.

Or

Faraz: comes out of just a series of choices for architects and designers,

Ella: yeah.

Faraz: And it’s not just about making the right choice, but just making a choice. There was a, uh, a gentleman I had spoken to a while back. Um, he used to be the, I think it was the Director of Inclusive Design for Microsoft.

Uh, Ben Tamlin was his name. Uh, I think he’s since moved on to other things. But, he had this, uh, this statement that he made. You know, at some point, you know, you’re designing for He was talking about like an Xbox controller, right,

Ella: Mm hmm.

Faraz: they had made a special controller for people who had, um, maybe they were an amputee So the size of the object was, was really exaggerated so that you had like, instead of like a joystick, like it was a really large contact patch. But what he was saying was at some point you have to make a choice and sometimes. The choice to include a certain population is at the same time a choice to exclude another.

But there’s always going to be compromise, um, and there’s always going to be this give and take, but just starting down that process was a huge step forward,

Ella: I think that’s a really fair point. I don’t think, like, you can’t satisfy everyone all at the same time. At least, not all at the same time. But I think at least being intentional about who we are, including, or intentionally excluding. I think, I think this has been really sort of unintentional for a long time.

And I, I don’t, I’m excited by the conversation that’s happening, and I don’t, I don’t know that there’s a good answer. Like who to intentionally

exclude,

Faraz: no, but I think at least maybe that’s our, you know, Pee Wee Herman word of the day is intention, right? And that that’s the thing that drives us forward is, right? Whether it’s about being inclusive of certain populations or exclusive of others, but you’re being intentional about it so that it doesn’t feel accidental, right?

You’re, you’re really trying to actively address a problem or help someone in the design of your space. And I think doing that through maybe choices you’re making around sensory stimulation around, you know, color, sight, sound, right. All of these elements that could really affect, everything you specify in a space or how you specify a space, I think is a good place to

start.

Ella: I think that’s really true. the challenge I would set for myself as a designer is like, how do you set up the conditions to like, let vibe evolve, do you, I guess what I’m thinking about is like, when I just was in Mexico, I was in this like cute little, like surfy hippie beach town called Salulita had like cobblestone and dirt streets. People mostly drove golf carts. It was like live music. Like it was basically like a seaside town. There were some buildings, but like lots of like open air, like kind of shacks.

Like, it was like, it was a vibe and it was not a vibe that anybody had curated. It just kind of, you know what I mean? It was just like, it was an outgrowth of like, The environment there, it was kind of tropical. It was just like, all of these things had kind of happened. And like, I don’t know, I feel like I’m always trying to create [00:35:00] something, but sometimes things create themselves.

And I’m curious about what, like how

that happens.

Faraz: I guess as a, on the client side, we’re open to new things and open to creating. a vibe and we kind of trust our partner, like our architect or designer to help guide us through that process? Or does it need to come from the other end to like, push us as a client?

Ella: Maybe that’s like a little bit of both. I like, have you ever had one of those like magical projects where like everybody is kind of doing their own thing, but like aligned enough. I guess sort of on a high level that it all kind of like falls together. And like the vibe is, is created, but like, you haven’t had to like steer the

whole thing.

Faraz: For sure. I mean, honestly, like, we’ll just flat out put out NeoCon Um, you know,

how TURF does that? Like, it’s, it is such a shared vision. but I also think to your point, It requires the, there to be like a chemistry, or, chemistry and a vision.

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: That has to be

shared.

Ella: and values, I guess, too, like in a, to be like corporate speak this, like, but just like, you know what I mean? If you’re, if everybody sort of values, like, I don’t know, interaction or, like, whatever it is that you’re looking for. But, like, everybody on the team has kind of a similar vibe in and of themselves.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: Then, I’ve had it go the other way, like, more often

than not. Where, like,

nothing, yeah, I will, like, I’m

Faraz: ha ha ha

Ella: nothing is values aligned. The vision is, like, agreed to, but not really adhered to, like it, like it was in sort of name only and like the project and the work that came out of that was horrifying.

Like it was just such a struggle the whole way. Um, I think it also requires personally just like setting down ego in some ways too. It’s just like, like, I don’t need this to be mine, but I need it to be what it’s supposed to be for the people who are going to like use it or enjoy it. Right.

Faraz: You know, it’s interesting, I’m kind of, Absorbing all of, all of our conversation, and I, I kind of think about it in this way, where There is a struggle to Maybe define what this is supposed to look like and feel like for, for architects and designers, right? Like

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: How are you supposed to design for the senses?

How are you supposed to design for different populations? Um, who has the responsibility to do it? And right, and kind of like that, the photography thing, right? It all comes back to the people.

Ella: Yeah.

like, the few create spaces for many, and so it’s a privilege and it’s a service to

the many, right? Yeah.

Faraz: it’s not even like cut and dry.

Ella: Yeah, And I think that, that’s, like, The point that we were talking about earlier, like where you are in the country creates different sensitivities to things or like America is a huge place with like a lot of different pockets of like very different geography, different culture, like all of these different things.

I feel like we should take this show on the road for us. Like we need to like van life this and go, go talk to

people about their organic

Faraz: I could, I could guarantee you that the organic vibes in LA and Chicago are going to be different than my family was just in, um, near our hometown in southern Indiana, and they were at the 4 H fair,

Ella: Oh,

Faraz: uh, and, so, I think even the various senses may be activated in different ways.

Ella: Totally. I can tell you which kind of animal poop I think is the best and worst.

Faraz: I guess I wonder to, um, what do we want our listeners to take away from all of this?

Ella: I think you hit the nail on the head. Intention. So whether we’re curating that in a, in a very sort of careful way, or even the places that aren’t curating or organizing, self organizing, there’s still intentionality there, right?

In

creating something, whether they know it or

not.

Faraz: So maybe we’ll see if our listeners take the bait or not, but I’d love to hear from them like, What, in their mind, makes a great vibe, and what do they

wish architects and designers were more intentional about in their process?

Ella: I think that’s a very good question. I also would be curious to know, like, how does, how does the vibe differ between what they create for themselves and sort of what they either like about public spaces, or wish could be different? Because I think in the pandemic, everybody holed up and like nested in their homes, and so we’ve all had like this kind of deeply personal experience with this semi recently.

And so I’m curious if that’s sort of shifted over, or if people are being more intentional about their own spaces, and if that has changed the way we view public space and what we require out of our

built environment.

Faraz: Public space, shared [00:40:00] space,

office

space, it’s all affected by all that.

I know, at least for myself, I can speak to that, and I’m sure everyone can too. They’ve had these very, visceral reactions to what they experienced for a few years to now and, or maybe the fact that they hadn’t been able to, you know, have this different experience.

I feel like that’s a, both of those

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: up informing how we perceive space now

Ella: All right. Do you want a random word that I selected for today that is unverified, not fact-check, and also unpronounceable

Faraz: So, this

Ella: for that? This is great.

for

Faraz: me your unverified,

unpronounceable,

Ella: gonna direct you to our shared board because I cannot, I don’t even know how to pronounce this, so I probably put . I

will, I’m gonna spell it

Faraz: we have, we have to try and pronounce

it

Ella: No!

before I butcher it,

let’s butcher it together.

Hippie tinnit

tippitittitus.

This is bad.

Faraz: Hippie

Ella: d I mean, that sounds like a person with like a hippie that has ringing

ear.

Hippie tinnitus.

Faraz: It’s a very like, Boho Greek person.

Ella: Right, there you go. The origin is Finnish, however. According to said interwebs, again, un fact checked. But the word, the meaning of the word I really like. It says, the bouncy, the translation is bouncy cushion satisfaction. The pleasure and satisfaction derived from sitting on a bouncy or bouncing on a cushion.

Which I thought like, from like a tactile or like, it kind of is a vibe in and of itself, right? Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That’s

Faraz: I really so maybe we’ll find a clip of someone natively actually

Pronouncing this

so

that we’d I think that’d be great.

Ella: Sounds great. But I like this word. It’s like, it’s very tactile and it’s a description. I like words that like describe something. You’re like, oh yeah, I’ve felt that, but not in a while.

I’m going to pay attention to that now.

Faraz: And now you, well, now someone has a word to describe it.

If they can pronounce it.

Ella: Happy tinnitus? Is that what we’re going with?

Faraz: Sure. Let’s roll with that.

Ella: Okay.

Ella: Thanks for listening to Sense of Space. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte with help from associate producers Moti Tavassoli and Patricia

Gonzalez.

Faraz: Sense of Space is a TERF podcast and is brought to you by the Surround Network by Sandow Design Group. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surroundpodcasts.

com make sure to leave a five star review on your podcast platform of choice. And for any of you guys who actually have comments and questions that you’d love for us to address, Please feel free to slide into our DMs or find Ella’s address and send her a letter.

Ella: Thank you. Carrier pigeons accepted.