Try Again?

The following transcription was made in part by an automated service, in some areas it may contain errors. 

 

Faraz: [00:00:00] Welcome to Sense Space, a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with. I'm Faraz Shah.

Ella: And I'm Ella Hazzard, and today we have a special guest daytime Emmy award-winning composer, songwriter, producer, and performer. Under the name Black Light Smoke. Jordan.

Faraz: Welcome to the show

Jordan: Hey, thanks for having me.

Ella: everybody here knows who Ferraz and I are. We've been talking about condiments and architecture and all kinds of ridiculousness the past couple of years, but it's very seldom that we have a guest on our show. But tell us a little bit about yourself,

Jordan: so yeah, I'm a musician by trade. I've been doing this for professionally for over 20 years. my first job in the music industry was, I had moved to New York City after college and I almost gave up after a year. I was working in a used record store, um, and then somebody, and I was like, I'm leaving.

This is too [00:01:00] hard. And the person I was talking to was like, well, let me, let's do you wanna try working in my studio? And I had been doing internships in recording studios up until then, and it was clear to me that I was. Not gonna follow that path.

it just seemed like too much waiting to get to the part that I wanted to do.

Um, and I had been already just write, you know, producing, writing in my bedroom for like years leading up to that. and so I took this job not totally knowing what I was getting into. And I was hired as an engineer, sort of an engineer in training at a studio that writes music for soap operas,

Faraz: I'm pretty sure my mom used to watch these, so

Jordan: Well, if she watched One Life to Live, she may have heard my music.

Faraz: No,

she actually might have actually.

Jordan: they at some point gave me a shot writing and writing music and, you know, I kind of like [00:02:00] gelled. And I, and I was there for a couple of years and while I was there, we got nominated for a daytime Emmy award and we won. I did that for a couple years and then kind of got antsy and I went freelance and I decided to try TV commercials because they're, my main reason was because they're shorter. Like 30 seconds seems easier to write than three minutes.

Ella: Yep.

Jordan: eventually I got hired at a studio doing that, and I stayed at that studio for a decade.

And then I moved to another studio and I've been at a second at that studio for another decade. So I've had a pretty, like, as far as employment and musicians go, I've had a very stable, career path. you know, those jobs and working in those media forms have taught me so much about writing and composing and I mean little things that you don't think about.

File organization, workflow, deadlines, things that are so [00:03:00] invaluable, Parallel to that, I've always been doing my own projects and playing in other countries, playing in clubs. I mean, that, that world kind of took me, to a lot of different spaces and sort of, my life has been going between the studio and live performance spaces and sometimes there's harmony there and sometimes there's not. so I still do that, but now I'm, a dad and I'm in my mid to late forties

Ella: The best decade as we call it

Faraz: Yeah. The best decade. The

Ella: the best decade.

Jordan: definitely, definitely. I'm glad to hear you

Ella: Uh.

Faraz: Yep.

Jordan: So things change, priorities change, and um, I started a kids song, YouTube channel with my family and my kids,

Faraz: Oh,

interesting.

Jordan: it's called Adventure Family Team.

Ella: I love this. Okay,

Jordan: really well.

Faraz: I have to look this up.

Jordan: like the most surprising development. In my musical and [00:04:00]artistic life because like all of a sudden I'm channeling the most positive, happy, and silly. It's still me 'cause it's still, well, it's still weird and it's still kind of edgy in its own way, but it's so like safe and loving and positive and silly.

Faraz: Future

Ella: that's so exciting. I can't wait to listen to that and share it with all my nieces and nephews.

Faraz: I say all my kids are too old for that, but, well, maybe, I don't know. We'll

Ella: Who knows?

Jordan: you never know.

Faraz: That's true. You never know. I mean, I do have to kind of build a little bit of a bridge here too. One of the reasons why you are our special guest is not just because of your daytime Emmy award, but

Ella: Oh, that's part

of it.

Faraz: uh, was also because

you

are the creator of the, this season's sense of space.

Kind of theme music, right? Uh, we're licensing one of your tracks, but also you created some tracks for us to use, I guess, transition spaces. And, I'm guessing the aesthetics might be a little bit different from that for [00:05:00] compared to what you were doing for the daytime, uh, soap operas. But I am really interested to understand how you think about creating and designing sound because I think there are probably a lot of parallels in how architects and designers kind of create space in how you might be creating sound for people to experience, because they're both these like physical, emotional kind of reactions to some stimulus, right?

Like the, the space that you're experiencing and seeing around you versus, you know, what you're hearing and, and kind of internalizing.

Jordan: working in the television music,

Faraz: Hmm

Jordan: space has really sort of like, if anything, like trained me to, understand what a brief is, what's the brief, what is being asked, what is being expected. there were a lot of years of like ego, deflation,

Faraz: Tell me more about that.

Ella: sounds familiar.

Jordan: [00:06:00] you create something as an artist and it, it's automatically precious

to you. It's your

Faraz: Don't kill my baby. Yeah.

Jordan: And you know, you're in this situation where you're, you're putting your music up against other people's music and maybe up against, you're competing to a different, with a different music house. And in the beginning it was be like turn, you know, little stuff like, Hey, this is great, can you turn the tambourine down? And I'd be like, what?

Faraz: It's critical.

Jordan: That's like.

the best part. You dunno anything about music.

that flares up every once in a while. But I've really learned to take on the attitude of, sure, how can I help?

How can I help? Now it's different when I'm creating something for myself because I'm the critic and I'm the decider. And so just now starting this kind of series on Instagram of, um, how I make music. the first part is about inspiration. Like where does inspiration come from? And I break it down into four, four categories. The first one is inspiration by [00:07:00] gear, which is basically pull up a guitar or a synth and start noodling around and let the sound of the instrument sort of guide you to, oh, I think I'm gonna make this now.

The second one is, um, kind of like, I liken it to being struck by a divine idea where it's like all of a sudden I see clearly, oh yeah, I want to make this cold, cold wave track, and the drums are gonna be like that and it's gonna have, vocals are gonna be like that. And it kind of comes and it's rare, but sometimes it kind of comes in one flash and it's like, quick, quick, quick.

Nobody talk to me. I gotta try to capture this. Um, and then the, the second two are way more relatable, I think for, for the rest of us is like. Imitation is huge. I don't believe in originality. I think it's kind of an overrated concept.

Um, everything is

Faraz: Everything is a reference, right?

Ella: all referential. Yes.

Jordan: In fact, we love hearing things. We recognize, we love hearing references.

Ella: in [00:08:00] some ways, some of my most favorite songs or compositions or arrangements, like I hate them the first few times I listened to them because they're not familiar and

it's uncomfortable.

Faraz: no, I mean, you're spot on. I mean, I, curious if this translates to, to the built environment, but albums that I did not appreciate.

Jordan: Mm.

Faraz: First listen, and then you go back and like, oh, actually, okay. Like there's more here, there's, and then it grows on you, and then it's your favorite.

Ella: yeah.

Jordan: in rainbows. Like I didn't get it and I didn't love it. And now it's like, I, I can't, I have a hard time thinking of better albums than that.

Faraz: I

had the opposite effect when I was in, when it came out. I was like, this is amazing. And now I'm like, oh, oh, it's so overrated. I'm

Jordan: That is so funny.

Ella: do, do either of you guys know the track? Track Nautilus by Anna Meredith?

Faraz: no,

Ella: It's like, all right, we'll put it in the, the show notes, but listen to it afterwards. It's like this weird arrangement that's like very horn focused and then turns into like this [00:09:00] weird dubstep thing. It's like pretty long song, but somebody played this for me a few years ago and I've since heard it like, like in, in different, it's been licensed a bunch of times, but like, it, it took me probably 10 listens.

I was like, turn this fucking racket off. Like, I hate it. And now like I, I crave it and have to like be careful how much I listen to it, so I don't like wear it out, you know what I mean? I don't wanna get sick of it, that kind of thing. there's some of these parallels to like, to the space that people live in and, and work in. Like

Yep.

Faraz: if you were to go into a space that was completely, like, laid out, fundamentally just different than everything else you were familiar with, it'd be so disorienting. So I think that there's like the familiarity and structure that probably feels safe and you know what to expect, but then you're also maybe creating opportunities for surprise along the way,

Jordan: right? There's a difference [00:10:00] between,

Originality in this sort of like idealized, pure form and maybe new, new arrangements of things or new perspectives on things or in, in my case, like juxtaposing references or, I mean, I can go through my discography with you and tell you the song that each one was in the back of my mind.

And so I'm a huge proponent of imitation. And I, if any advice I give to new producers, it's like, pick a song you love and try to just try to remake it. Like just make it, make that song, make do it in a new way. Do it the way they did it. Like you will learn so much just imitating. So, and then the fourth one is sampling.

I mean, just, it's like if you're feeling stuck, just sample the shit out of

Faraz: I think a, a year ago we talked with, uh, another friend of the show, uh, black [00:11:00] Asteroid, and he was telling us like so much of his inspiration 'cause he was doing, um. Music for like some fashion shows, and his inspiration was like architecture and it was so interesting that it was like

Ella: like these

weird brutalist,

Faraz: architecture and photography.

Yeah. Like

Ella: but super brutal. Like brutalist, like very concrete, simple. Like incredibly modern.

Faraz: Like translating the vibe. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ella: Yeah. I don't know. But I, it's so interesting, so I always appreciate a, let me stop and Raz give you a quick compliment that you guys do so much to always work with musicians, both in, well, this experience here, but in any of your sort of NeoCon experiences, you guys really, you do a very good job of integrating and making this like a very authentic experience.

And you've introduced me to people that I wouldn't have met, like Jordan, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm so excited about our, our music this year. Like Rob did, our producer did a great job last year with what we had. But like this, like, it makes me even more enthusiastic for how [00:12:00] we will present ourselves to the world.

Um, and so I appreciate for us that you and

Patricia worked so hard to make this happen.

Faraz: it's such a, an extension of the culture. Um, like actually the reason like Patricia's here is we, we hired her, uh, a couple of times. For how many, Patricia how many shows did you, you did two. Two sets of us, right.

Patricia: I did, yes, I did Halloween.

Um, the, Um, yes, but it was the blade, the. Yeah, it was a bleed. I mean the blood rave, not the,

Faraz: Yeah.

Patricia: yeah, and then the death to love. 'cause I got a message that you needed someone to play like techno, but also dark wave, but also electronica and just kind of a lot of weaving in and out of genres us.

Faraz: I think that's the thing that's so interesting is that we have all of these folks that are, uh, other employees who, like, it just speaks to us in a, um, I think [00:13:00] a way that's near and dear to our heart that we're all a bunch of little goth boys and girls at

heart. And we're, we're, we're, trapped in, in the, a corporate, well, not even that corporate, let's be honest, right?

Like,

Ella: I'm still stomping around in my dolls Kills boots like.

Faraz: were all the, like, the kids who had like, I mean I had very, very large pants

Like

the jco, but like very, very, very large. There is a, a print photograph somewhere at my house or my parents' house. Like it was so big that like a kid could like literally crawl up the leg of my pants

Ella: can you unearth that and make that a part of the social

media situation

Faraz: it, but like we all grew, we all kind of grew up and then so now we just work, you know, regular people jobs,

But like, this is such a critical part, I think of like the, the experiences that we try and create at turf that I think resonate with a lot of other folks in architecture and design [00:14:00] is that, um, you are creating an experience

and like you're, you're trying to curate what this thing is supposed to look like.

Well, what's this place? And, you know, things supposed to sound like as well.

Ella: Yeah. One thing I kind of wonder and think about Jordan is like, so architects are trying to create spaces that people will come to ostensibly, either need the space, it's got some sort of function, or it's a destination serving a purpose. Music used to be something that you would, would go to see, but now we can take it with us everywhere.

So you can kind of change your context and maybe not everybody has context for how they

are aware or what they would listen to something. if we're thinking about sound and space together, if you're creating things that are for a specific purpose, maybe talk a little bit about what you're creating for in. The experiences that you do for yourself or for your other

audiences?

Jordan: When I am creating something for music [00:15:00] release, I'm very picky. I'm very hard on myself. and it's funny because it's for an audience that I'll never meet, I mean, very rare are you like with somebody when they're hearing that music.

And so I'm fighting, I'm probably fighting internal demons or whatever, but when I'm, when I'm preparing music to play live, you would think, oh, just take all that music you made and play it live. For some reason it something switches over I start to put together live sets, like just to play live.

I'm way, I get way more loose. I have way more fun. I'm like, Ooh, let me do this crazy remix of this and lemme

Faraz: like what's the, like, what's the difference?

Jordan: Maybe because the experience is just a transient experience.

Like, if it doesn't go well, it was just an hour and it's

Ella: Yeah.

There's like less pressure in a way.

Jordan: it could be, I think the harder to [00:16:00] answer question would be why am I so hard on myself when I'm writing music for a record? I mean, it's kind of makes sense, right? This is your, this is your one statement, right? I find it more interesting to go into why is, why do I start having so much fun when I'm creating music for a live experience?

Because I'm starting to imagine, okay, like if it's a club that I've already played, I start picturing the club and a lot of times I am insane. I will like write a whole new set of music, like for that gig. I'll like write. Yeah. And I'll be like, why do I do this every time? It's so hard. Why don't I just, why don't I just play the last set that you played at the other place?

Like, I start projecting what this is gonna be like, and maybe there might be some validity to it, right?

Like, okay, I know these people are booking me, I'm playing with so and so, like this,

Faraz: Like you're trying to match the vibe of like who else you're, you're booked with.

Jordan: Yeah. And I think there's some logic there, right? Like [00:17:00] I, last time I, this last gig I played in New York with Tig, with Tigga, and it's like, I, I'm not gonna play really intense industrial EBM tech techno before him.

I'm gonna play all this kind of like electro funky

techno. And, and then I was like, I don't actually have a lot of that. I think I'm gonna have to write that all.

Faraz: So you like are basically a, like a chameleon. You're kind of code switching based off of who you're co performers are and the audience and matching their vibe, meeting them, kind of where they're expecting to be.

Jordan: And sometimes that's really toxic for me

because it becomes not only What do I think is gonna get your approval as opposed to just be yourself. They just wanna see you be yourself. But then what I'm trying to get approval from imaginary people in the future,

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: and that's

Faraz: that. Like, uh, for turf, like [00:18:00] we do these showrooms and we've become gluttons for punishment of like doing it new every year. Um, which is not an affordable, super sustainable practice. However,

like

we've had Well, thank you. But like, it's the, you know, the whole team. Yeah. At what cost, but there was also like a pressure to that and like a, a, a, I think the expectations, the pressure or the trying to anticipate what the, the, the visitors or the guests are, are, we think they're wanting, Striking a balance of that is hard

Jordan: it's hard. Yeah. But I, I would say what's a, the, the good thing, the beautiful thing that's at the heart of it is striving for that sort of like shared experience that you're gonna have with the crowd. And knowing that you really put a lot of hard work into it. I rehearse a lot because I don't wanna be caught off guard by [00:19:00] myself or by my gear.

I wanna know everything is

going to sort of, all the presets are correct, all the volumes are gonna come incorrect. And, you know, it's, it's always different from your, what you imagined from your future tripping. Um. Things that you were worried were gonna be horrible went well, and things that you thought, oh, they're gonna love this.

Like kind of fall flat. And so it's always like, you know, an interesting ride. But at the heart of it is striving for like, I really wanna have fun. I really want them to have fun. And I really work hard to choreograph it. And it's totally different from being a dj. 'cause a DJ can just bring whatever, whether it's a creative records or the USB stick and add that last moment right before they go on.

They can read the room

and pivot I have 60 folders of music I can pivot to. I'm literally stuck on a single [00:20:00] track moving forward.

Faraz: We're riding this train. Yeah.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: I wrote. this for you.

Ella: For better or for worse,

Faraz: Yeah.

Like there's a permanence to it.

Ella: I think, I think there's something interesting in all of this. I wanna, I wanna pick on one thing you said for us, but I'm gonna do it, do it one better. Not one upper, but give us better language. If I might. You can be critical of this is strong. I, I understand the concept of being a chameleon, both from being like mixed race and like having to code switch all the time, but also from being like.

Having a yard sale of a career where I'm an architect, but it's always been architect plus something else where it's just like, it's never very clear what you're doing. And so like I can easily fit into lots of places. And I think I used to use the term chameleon because I was trying to fit into lots of different places.

I've started to change my language and use the term shape shifting because it

Faraz: yeah.

Ella: agency into who I want to be in a certain space and still [00:21:00] gives me an identity there. And so it also takes some of the power back that like you wanna participate in something, but that doesn't mean that you're giving away your selfness or your agency or your identity.

And it puts you, I don't know, in some ways as like a strategic sort of, the ability to maneuver through lots of different spaces, um, is actually quite powerful, I think. And I think it's actually what's necessary to help translate between, it's like what we're doing right now in this conversation, but between like design and music, it's like that's, we're all shape shifting a little bit to have this conversation right now.

Right?

Faraz: I do like that framing of like being strategic and choosing rather than being like responsive or reactive.

Ella: Yeah, exactly. But I think you have to start out being kind of chameleony, like you were saying, Jordan, in the beginning of your career, having to learn all these different genres, but like doing that, like maybe you're becoming a bit of a chameleon to start. You're like, okay, I have to. But once you have mastery of a bunch of different things, then you actually become like a, you can, you can play and choose things at will and mission mash with the knowledge, right?

[00:22:00] Like, does that resonate at all? Like I want to, I wanna give you power back to say that you're not trying to, you're not future tripping. You are.

Jordan: Well,

Ella: I mean, you might be, but you know,

Jordan: well, I can't help it sometimes. No, I love that. I think that's really, um, generous to yourself and,

um,

Ella: Therapy. Not free.

Jordan: Right. Oh, I didn't come up with that one.

Ella: No, no. We did, but it was work. Yeah.

Jordan: I'm, well, I'll just say my experience is that has, that has come with age and maturity, right? I, and exhaustion, like, I'm exhausted from people pleasing, you know, and actually kind of like hitting a bottom with that a couple years ago and just yeah. Sort of just out of becoming tired of that.

Um, but also becoming more confident over the years and owning it and wearing it more and forgiving myself. 'cause there's periods where I look back and like see that I really wanted to be [00:23:00] accepted. And, um, there's periods where I'm like, kind of like bummed that I put a lot of energy into wanting to be accepted.

Um, so, but I think that's, I think it's really valuable. Like, and I do think, speaking of being in your forties, I, I just, I, I could be wrong, but I feel like you, you can't have that until later,

Faraz: I would. I would a hundred percent agree. Yeah.

Ella: I think you're right. It does come from exhaustion. You're like, I have done it this way for forever and it is no longer sustainable. Like, what are we gonna do?

Faraz: I think we even were talking earlier this year, like, 'cause I was like, when I turned 40, I was like, I don't know what it is, but I feel like switch was just flipped. And I was like, okay, I have so fewer fucks to give.

I wanna make sure that the ones I have are for the right things.

Ella: yeah. You prioritize the ones you have

better, but you've also, you've, yeah. You've given, you've doled out your last fucking at 39, so.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: Yeah. No, I totally [00:24:00] agree. I think it's also, I had like this weird image in my mind. I'm gonna be 44 soon, but when I turned 40, I had a similar moment for us where I just was like, in my head, I was like.

Grownups are 40 years old. And then when I turned 40, I was like, well, I guess I'm a grownup now. I was like, oh, does my opinion finally count? And like it was, it took that, like, not that, that was literally turning

40 is what gave me Yeah. Of like grownup

hood, appreciate emotional excavation, Jordan.

And I think it's something that in some ways, all creatives face, right? Like when you're putting something into the world is like one of the most vulnerable experiences that there is, right? Like you're putting a piece of yourself out there and once it's out there, like you, you've, you're, you've, you, you don't have control over what it is, but other people are there to respond to it.

And I, I guess what I would say to commend, is that like you [00:25:00]continuously put work out there, that's like the cont that's the hard thing to do. And I think you're right. Over time you start to care less about what people think and you love yourself more because if you don't, you'll implode or like, you know, you'll just be a puddle on the floor constantly.

But I

think it's like going to the gym, like you have to build these muscles of confidence and competence, I guess. I don't know,

Faraz: I mean, I think that you brought up an interesting point too, where you're talking about the, you could only do this now right after maturity and after growth, but I think a lot of that has to do with the variety of, uh, experience that you accumulate in your early years as, you know, an architect, a designer as a musician, the trial, the error, error, the failure, the, uh, frustration, the excitement, all of those things kind of culminate in having a more refined palette of [00:26:00] flu to give.

Yeah.

Ella: Yep.

this makes me think about sort of self-care in general as a creative, what are the things that you do to.

Keep yourself fresh rejuvenated in your creative space. Or when you do do something

that Like

Faraz: alive.

Ella: Creatively alive. Yeah. Or when you do something that does feel exhausting or taxing, like how do you recover from that

Jordan: Yeah. well, I will qualify this by saying I have two little

Faraz: Mm-hmm.

Ella: so you

Jordan: so I'm I'm never refreshed. I'm always exhausted,

Ella: Got it.

Jordan: but, but that has brought to the forefront. For me, the preciousness of the time that I have and sort of all of a sudden I care about eating heart healthy food because I have little kids.

So on the one hand they kind of like take away from this sort of like that, my ability to be this singularly focused artist.

And at the same [00:27:00] time they put all the important stuff in pers into perspective. And so, you know, I have always sort of been split between being a live performing musician and a studio musician.

And I, the majority of it has been studio. I mean, I've done touring, I've played gigs, but I have friends that I started with that just went full gig and they signed big record labels and their life is on the road. And I used to be jealous. I used to be jealous. And I'm no longer jealous because I, First of all, there's no off ramp for that.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: There's no health insurance, there's no off ramp. Um, there's no retirement plan.

Faraz: The pace.

Jordan: well among many other things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Faraz: Mm-hmm.

Jordan: So being, it's sort of like between, going between this external space, internal space, and so I have a lot [00:28:00] more say over how much energy I put into going into that external space because I play, when I play live, I play techno music.

Techno music does not happen before bedtime.

Ella: No it does not. Well could, but it's not

better.

Jordan: depends when

your bedtime is.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: before sunrise and sometimes not even then.

Faraz: right.

Yeah.

Jordan: So it's so different now at my age where I am in my life and I don't drink anymore. So I don't have certain motivators to be up late. In fact, I'm more exhausted. And so anytime I fly in, before I fly in somewhere, I let them know, Hey, I'm gonna be going, I can skip the sound check 'cause I'm going to the hotel 'cause I need a, I need a nap.

And they're like, really? I'm like, no, I have four. I have two little kids. They have me up every [00:29:00] day at 5:00 AM I need a nap. And they're

like, oh. Oh, okay. Okay.

Yeah.

Ella: Got it.

Faraz: heart. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Jordan: And that kind of stuff was hard at first. You know,

I don't drink, I'm not going to the after party. Like it was very awkward because I spent so many years just going with the flow of the party.

was difficult at first. Was awkward at first, but has been like so rewarding. Like if you're older and you're still in that game.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: You're either like on your way to rehab or you're taking good care of yourself, which means you don't care about after parties and you take naps and you eat healthy and you go for a run in the morning and stuff like that.

And I always, and I'm so curious, like other, I ask other people who have been out there for a long time, how do you do this? I was talking with TGA after the gig. I was like, honestly, man, how do you still go? He goes, oh, I'm like a professional napper.

He's like, he goes, I sleep like eight, nine hours a night, and then I take a four hour nap during [00:30:00] the day.

Ella: I love that.

LeBron James. Famous napper, like, you know what I mean? Like, yes.

Faraz: In college I was an epic napper, but now

Jordan: It's hard for

me. It's a challenge.

Ella: I can, my, I think the secret is no more than 20 minutes actually, if you're gonna do like a power nap,

Jordan: That's me, that's me. After that, my brain goes, wake up work.

Ella: Yep.

Jordan: Um.

Ella: too long, then I'm just sleepy.

Faraz: Well, that's what, yeah, like I've gotta commit, like I'm going into bed or I'm like awake. If I don't have the, the self-control to be like, I'm napping and like I'm just gonna have like a little nap.

Ella: Just like have a little sip of a nap. Like just,

Jordan: I never just,

have one. Yeah.

Faraz: Nope.

Ella: love, I love your candor with that. And I think, I don't know, does it change the quality of the music?

Faraz: Yeah. Or change your creative approach.

Jordan: Everything, everything changes. Everything changes. Like my experience of being in a club is different. My experience of socializing is different. My experience of of the [00:31:00] other people's music is different. I have such little tolerance for bad

music. Like,

Ella: Yeah. I love that

Jordan: I'm like, I don't, I don't care for this. This doesn't please me.

Faraz: Mm-hmm.

Ella: This

Jordan: Um, yeah, this is not for

me.

Also focuses like what is my primary purpose? I'm actually here to work. I'm here to work. They're paying me to work. It's a job. So act professional. And the, the benefits have been just on, I can't tell you all the benefits, but one of, one of the great ones is leaving when I'm done, not making a mess, not feeling guilty about anything, not wondering what I did.

I, I don't feel like, are they gonna call me back? That I, you know, and, and just knowing I did like a professional job. It's like, oh, welcome to the world of these we're professionals. Actually all those other people are messing around. So, but that's in that, that's in that external space. In the internal [00:32:00]space, it's more about creating internal boundaries of like, um, you know, making sure I'm not on my phone too much.

Making sure, and the kids help a lot with that. Like, I used to be able to go back to work after dinner, go back to the computer, to now it's like that evening comes,

I'm like, done. I'm

done. I'm just done and then I could I go back into the studio at 9:00 PM I could, but nothing is that important. So there's a lot more self-care that gets thrust upon you just by having kids.

But also, yeah, like that's just a huge part of my life. Other things like keeping a clean work environment, keeping, keeping a clean studio.

You know, there's little things like that. It's just so important when you don't, when you're down on your art and you don't know what to do. Clean. Clean. Just

clean. That's

Ella: yep.

Faraz: peace.

Jordan: Totally.

Ella: protect that piece. I think that's important. I, no, I really appreciate you sharing. 'cause like, I [00:33:00] think this is one thing that I think we find across any type of type of creative, it's like, it's like it's vulnerable to create things. Part of creating things is messy. And so like, like there's these processes that we all go through and they, they might be similar, but I think I'm always curious about how people, I don't know, manage this and how that shifts over the course of their lives and creative careers as well.

So I really

Jordan: Hmm.

Ella: sharing that

Faraz: I do think there's a lot of parallels to like what we experience in the design community a little bit too. I'm like, you know, maybe it's not the performance, but like the after parties and stuff like that. Like that's a thing certain times of year. And it's like

Jordan: Yeah.

Faraz: if you don't participate in, in some of that stuff, like, um, yeah.

It gives you a little bit different perspective

about like

Ella: Or like,

Faraz: is you're doing here.

Ella: yeah, or like, yeah, or like taking your clients out to do like dinners and drinks and all of that kind of stuff. Or just like, the same way that you would release a song into the wild. [00:34:00] Like when, when your architecture is done and you open the space, you hope that the people that are using it regularly enjoy it, and likely you've been in more contact with them.

But that'll also be open to the architecture public for critique. Uh, there'll be commentary that affects your ability to do future work. Like, it's intimidating as hell. I mean, I've designed

things.

Yeah, it's, and it's expensive. Like this is the most money anybody is likely gonna spend on their home. Or like, you know, there's a significant investment in those things.

And so I totally appreciate the process and the experience and how gut-wrenching it can be, but also how delightful it can be, right? When you really nail something and like the crowds jump in, or like you get positive feedback on something, you're like, ah, we did something that made the world like just this much better today.

And that feels really good.

Jordan: the last time I played in Chicago, I was like literally in the car texting on the way to the gig, texting with Patricia. Like, I don't know, like I feel like I'm done. Like I'm so tired. It feels like the world is just such a dark place like.

Faraz: [00:35:00] oh, aw.

Jordan: I just feels like over.

And she's like, I'm, she's like, I hear you. I hear more, more people are feeling this way. And

then I had the best gig ever and I was like, darn it. 'cause I was so ready to like throw in the towel and then that went and complicated everything.

Like

you,

Ella: put it

Faraz: it would've been

Jordan: it would've been, it would've been it for me because, because everything is so messed up now. And it kind of was like, because everything is so messed up, you have to keep going. You have to put your heart into it, you have to double down. And all those records that you feel too precious, you have to fucking release them because time is almost up.

Just put them all out. Fuck it. Everything's going to help put all your records out. Like literally.

Ella: really true.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: But that, but that's really true as like a rabid consumer of [00:36:00]music. I would say that that is the one thing that whenever I'm feeling low or feel things feel hard, like music is the one thing, time and again, that, that brings me back and brings me

a, a sense of comfort no matter where I am in the world.

And like we all have the ability to have this in our phone. Right. But like, time and again, it's always music I could do without food. I feel like I could do without water, but

Faraz: It's creative fuel. It is creative

fuel

Jordan: I am jealous that you guys can work and listen to music at the same time.

Ella: Sometimes I

can, sometimes I can't.

Faraz: oh really?

Ella: I get too distracted 'cause I get so into the music.

Faraz: I think I sent this to, to one of my friends earlier, it was like some meme that came across my Instagram, but it was like how all these like, uh, like noise kids, like, they listen to like this incredibly, like loud metal and, and you know, they're doing like their Excel spreadsheet or whatever.

And then like, but like that's a really, like, I need the, the intensity and the noise and the, like, I need that to be able, uh, to kind of keep pace with what I'm doing. And [00:37:00]

sometimes, like that's how I get in into that head space is whether it's lyrics or not, but like I need that level of intensity and tempo to be able to do what I do

I'd like to understand more about the, the parallels, I think with just creatives in general, and I'm lumping kind of architects into your design, even like product designers into this kind of, uh, category of creatives alongside, you know, artists like yourselves on, on the music side.

But like, what does that creative process like, like from the inception of, of one of those ideas? Like you're talking about, like how it comes from either it's like a reference or it's, it's kind of this divine kind of inspiration, but like how do you go about. Staying, um, not deliberate, but um, I guess dedicated to like finishing, there's a certain, like, perseverance I think to like, okay, let me, let me [00:38:00] back this up for a second.

Lemme back this up for a second.

Jordan: I hate finishing things.

Faraz: I think as a, as a creative, right, like if you're doing some design work, it's, it takes a certain level of dedication, perseverance

Ella: Discipline.

Faraz: discipline, my God, thank you. That is the word. It takes a level of discipline to focus and stay with it, rather than just getting distracted.

Like, how do you do that?

Jordan: the last 10% is actually the last 90%.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: like, oh my God. it's discipline, which I define as, you know, doing something when you don't feel like doing it. And it's just, yeah, it's really logistical and it's, it's, and it's not just the A DHD, no dopamine at that part of it. It's like the beginning part is so open that there's so much possibility.

It's so, there's so much excitement and I don't know how you guys experience your own work, but oftentimes [00:39:00] I'm like, wow, this is it. This is it. I got it. I'm, yes. And I go downstairs and I make dinner. I'm like, I'm the man. I finished it. I know who I am. I know there's gonna be an acid track, and then there's gonna be this track and it's gonna be like this.

And then I go and listen in the morning. I'm like, oh my God, it's so squeaky and squeaky like, you know. So there's such this battle at the end. now I'm confronting my fears about putting it out there. And that's where the perfectionism comes in, where it's

like, and I really, in a lot of, in, in as many areas in my life as I can, I've just been saying, man, it's good enough.

Just

Faraz: Yeah, I do think that there's something though, like when you get into a creative flow, trusting what I first came up with. Like there's some learned intuition or whatever that, like that first thing that I'm like really, really passionate about, like if I've done the duty or the due diligence to be able to like burn through the obvious ideas.[00:40:00]

But like I've seen it light at the end of the tunnel and I'm just gonna go like full force on it. And then the next day, like I'm trying not to edit too much

Jordan: The editing, the editing. I can't, I can't tell you how many rough mixes were the best.

And I spent days like, oh, the kick drum has the balance with the

base and

Faraz: the broad strokes in and you're like,

no, this is, you've got the vision, you've captured it.

Jordan: it's when I didn't care if it was hitting the red, I didn't care if it was wrong. I'm like, I don't care. It's crispy.

It sounds great. And then when I went to make it right, I took all the teeth out. I can't tell you how many times I've done that. Now I just put out mixes that are wrong all the time.

say, I try to make that last period really short. what if I skipped it? What if it was done?

Faraz: Mm-hmm.

Ella: Yeah,

Faraz: how do you work well or not with others?

Ella: Do you play well with others?

Faraz: Do you play well with others?

Jordan: If I have, if I have to.

Faraz: Well, [00:41:00]

Jordan: I do, I really do. I'm, I love working well with others when our roles are clear and we're both sort of like on the same page. I, as a producer and I, sometimes I produce other people's music, you're really playing this supportive role and it's really psychological and I sometimes it's really therapeutic.

It's finding, you know, where, where am I most needed for this? And instead of making their track a me version of their track, how can I just highlight them? So I think there's a lot of different roles where I think I do work well with others and then. The ones where I don't, I've just decided, you know what, nobody does this the way I, I know how to do it.

You know? And not to say it's not an ego thing. It's like,

why do

you keep, why

do you keep, yeah. Or why do you keep de it's like, why do you keep doubting yourself? Why do you keep defaulting? Oh no, this guy's gotta [00:42:00]master it because he mastered everyone else's stuff.

Ella: Yeah.

Jordan: And can I just trust that I really love my finished product and, and be done.

So in that, in, in that instance, I try to be polite, but I really sick

of that battle, that ego battle,

Ella: Yeah. Like, don't trample my shit. You know, like,

Faraz: Yeah. I do see a lot of that though in like what we do in architecture and design of like how we partner with people.

Um, there's like a certain chemistry that you need to have to make that work.

Jordan: Yeah,

Faraz: and I've seen it not work and it's just hard. It's so much harder than it needs to be, so much harder than it needs to be.

Jordan: that's interesting. 'cause I put very, that's like an area I put very little thought into like architecture, design, you know, it's like, oh, all these places, all these things are intentional. All these, all these things are [00:43:00] planned. I don't think I'm alone in that. Like, you just go to a space and you're like, oh, this space is here for me.

I'm here. I'm gonna go get my hot dog

over here.

Ella: feel as though music is such a precious thing to me that I don't actually wanna understand. I don't want to see how the sausage is made because I don't want to think about any of that.

So I can just purely enjoy it as a consumer. And I feel the same way about people. Like the hope is that no, like if you're doing it right, nobody's like noticing things about your architecture they're just having, or your designs, they're having an experience

Faraz: Oh, I feel like

Ella: be

Faraz: opposite of that.

Ella: really, I, well this is why we do a podcast together for us.

Faraz: I'm like, so in love with the idea of like understanding like the context and like when, why and how, because then I'm like, oh, now I get, oh, I get it. Like I can appreciate this. Or like notice something that wasn't as obvious to me before. Like I, I don't know, I get something out of [00:44:00] that.

Ella: I do with the things that I choose to,

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: to do that about. But there are

certain things like cooking, for example. Parts of me would've loved to do that professionally, but I enjoy it so much that I don't wanna ruin it for myself and start nitpicking and, and become a perfectionist about something. I'm okay doing it wrong or having it be bad, but if I start to know the rules, then I will feel compelled in some ways to follow them or

Faraz: yeah, I think that's a distinction of

like,

Ella: yeah.

Faraz: does knowing. Force you or make you more inclined to like fit into a box?

Ella: Yeah. I mean, one could say also that I could stop doing that to myself, right? Like that's something I could choose to work on.

But the way I've

managed it

Faraz: you know?

Ella: yeah, that's a whole other Oprah. Yeah. But the way I've managed it is by keeping a beginner's mind and a beginner's experience about certain very specific things in my life that I really enjoy as a consumer, you know, or as a novice.

Jordan: I think a lot of people are like that with the way they [00:45:00]consume, like TV or movies, you know, they just, they just take it in, you know, they just watch it. and it's so annoying to watch a movie with a movie person.

It's the most annoying thing.

It's like, stop, stop. but I'm that way with, I'm that way with some music, just because I wanna know how something was

made.

Ella: That's fair.

Faraz: Jordan. It's been a pleasure to meet you, talk to you, learn a little bit more about how you do things and yeah. Where can people find you

Jordan: first of all, yeah, thank you. Thank you guys for having me. you can find black light smoke on, SoundCloud, Spotify, Instagram, YouTube, and every once in a while out in the world, and I'd be happy to see you there if we're in

the same

city.

Ella: Love that.

Faraz: Ella, what the hell are we gonna call this episode? We had so much fun.

Ella: What about, do we play well with others or,

Rob: like to hear from Patricia.

Faraz: I saw a post-it.

Ella: all right what she got.

Patricia: not good enough. Try [00:46:00] again.

Faraz: All right, well, thanks everyone for listening to Sense of Space. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte with the help from Associate Producer Patricia Gonzalez.

Ella: Sense of Space is a Turf podcast and is brought to you by the Surround network. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surround podcast.com.

Faraz: And make sure to leave us a great review wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and please shout this from the rooftops. This is a special request. We'll see you next time on Census Space.

Bye.