The Science of Better Buildings

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Avi: [00:00:00] Welcome to Deep Green. I'm your host, Avi Rajagopal, the editor-in-chief of the Architecture and Interior Design Magazine. Metropolis. Metropolis recently released our first US Sustainable design report in collaboration with interface, a deep dive into the state of sustainability in American architecture and design.

I'm gonna be talking to people who have a bird's eye view of how we can build sustainably here in the United States, what wins we've had, what challenges remain, and where we should focus our efforts. My guest today is Holly Samuelson, who's the associate professor and Fairchild Career Development Chair at MIT's School of Architecture and Planning.

She's a building scientist, an architect, and an educator whose work focuses on how building design impacts health and carbon emissions. [00:01:00] At IT, she directs the Livable Spaces Lab and Interdisciplinary Research Group, advancing healthy energy, efficient buildings for people and the planet. The lab combines computational and experimental methods to tackle urgent challenges including heat, vulnerability, thermal resilience, indoor air quality, carbon emissions, and the future of building design in a shifting energy landscape for the Metropolis interface, US Sustainable Design Report 2026.

We turn to Holly as an expert on heating and cooling across the us, including the use of heat pumps in cold climates. Holly, I'm so thrilled to have you as a guest on Deep Pain Today.

Holly: Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here at Coffee.

Avi: why don't you kick us off by giving us an introduction to your work at the Livable Spaces Lab? A better introduction than the one I gave hopefully.

Holly: Well, thanks. That was a great introduction actually. the Livable Spaces Lab, or Liv Lab is my research group at [00:02:00] MIT. It's a group of students and researchers, and as you mentioned, we investigate how thoughtful building design protects occupant and public health, by reducing energy related emissions and enhancing indoor environmental quality.

we're working towards better livable spaces. current topics we're working on, as you mentioned, are thermal resilience. So how can buildings provide safer indoor conditions, whether that's in power outages or extreme temperatures, for example, in low income, older adult housing or in areas of the globe that are, heating quickly or emergency shelters.

We look at indoor air quality, and you mentioned architecture in an, in an evolving energy context. So we're thinking about how should or could architectural design best practices adjust to the changing, uh, context of switching, for example, to heat pumps from fossil fuel heating or adding more renewable energy to the grid.

Um, [00:03:00] are there things that we need to consider, for example, in window design to adjust to this new context? So those are some of the issues that we're working on now.

Avi: That all sounds really exciting. And one of the things I think that's really apparent in the work of Liv Lab and in your, you know, long career is, your focus on some of these really everyday concerns. how important is it to you that sustainable design strategies. really mainstream, meaning that we're incorporating some minimal level of, you know, energy reduction, thermal resilience, comfort, air quality, public health outcomes in all ordinary buildings versus some really high investment, high profile projects.

Right. why are you so focused on accessibility to these strategies as well?

Holly: Well. We're not gonna solve the problems of the planet, uh, just focusing on the [00:04:00] high profile project. So my ultimate goal is to have a scalable impact. Um, so hats off to the researchers and policy makers and design teams that are, um, working on everyday buildings to improve them. Um, I hope that I can look back and say that I have been able to, um, scale sustainable design somewhat to the.

Broader reach of, uh, the building industry, and I'm fortunate as an academic to be able to define my scope and to, focus on, issues, where we think we might be able to make a difference.

Avi: Holly, I think the other aspect of your work is. Your focus both on occupant health as well as outcomes for say, climate change. Right. and while there's a lot of people who are interested in both of those things, uh, I don't know that a lot of people look at them as connected to each other or consequences of each other.

are we getting any better at connecting those two things? And why is it that [00:05:00] you deal with them holistically in your work at Live Lab?

Holly: That's a great question. Well. I don't think that we've come up with one holistic metric where we can put a number and say, oh, we've combined all of the health metrics and all of the energy metrics and, and this is a better approach. I think that objective would be, uh, fraught with challenges. But I do think that the building industry has gotten better at considering both occupant health and, energy efficiency and thus public health.

we've certainly had some learning moments in history. you consider building design after the 1970s oil crisis in the name of energy efficiency, we turn to deep floor plates with little surface area buildings with, sealed dark windows and dialed back ventilation rates. In the name of energy efficiency.

We were delivering at best unpleasant buildings and at worst, an era of sick buildings. but next, if you consider, the first generation of LEED certified buildings and LEED stands for. [00:06:00] Leadership and energy and environmental design. But ironically, studies showed that many of the first generation of lead buildings actually used more energy than their non-green counterparts.

Several of them had all glass facades. Uh, and that was driven in part by wellness focused credits in the lead rating system, that gave credits for daylight and views, uh, without much penalty for the energy consequences of over glazing. So I think these were two learning moments where maybe we were focused on, um.

Energy without thinking about occupant health or, you know, focusing a little bit more on occupant health without, um, as much focus on energy. And I think we've learned from both of these experiences, uh, lead has improved. I think our buildings have improved, improved. Sue us. I think we have gotten better at considering both.

Energy performance and occupant health. And I love to point out, that the topics of energy and health are more related than they might [00:07:00] appear. studies have linked huge numbers of premature deaths to air pollution, specifically from burning fossil fuels. Meanwhile, heating, cooling, powering and constructing buildings are responsible for large portions of fossil fuel combustion.

Which is driving climate change, another public health crisis. So I like to tell my students that we need to protect the health of both our building occupants and all the people living literally and figuratively downwind of the fuels burned to operate our buildings.

Avi: at Metropolis we used to joke that we have an occupant problem. We focus so much on the experience of the people in the building and maybe don't think about the larger consequence of buildings. It's hard to hold both those groups in your mind as you're working. Both at MIT and then previously in your position at the Harvard Graduate School of Design, [00:08:00] in your work as an architect, you've seen the arc of the green building movement in the us. so I'm gonna ask you a really big question, right? Where, where do you feel we're at? You know, are we doing better?

Have we kind of plateaued? Are there places where we're falling short?

Holly: We are definitely progressing, no doubt. Uh, in my career I went from sneaking in extra insulation and wall sections and trying to talk clients into pursuing nascent certifications to then being able to make a full-time living out of sustainability consulting, to needing to go back to academia to learn more, to answer questions from, uh, the demands of the industry.

To then being able to teach others to go out and do this. So, I feel very unfortunate to see that, sustainable design has, grown and become more important and mainstream. So I definitely think we're progressing. is it fast enough to, abate all the climate problems we're getting into?

Maybe not. but we're definitely progressing.

Avi: You know, our [00:09:00] research shows that. broadly speaking, architects and designers in the US and, you know, we did our first ever US-wide survey on sustainable design, especially perceptions and, preferences around sustainable design. We found that, you know, the majority of designers. A, want to incorporate sustainable design strategies in their work. B, feel like they have the basic knowledge to start doing that work or to continue doing that work. And c, feel like the work is only going to get more important over time, I think, which is, you know, really, really important. But when we asked them, well, why aren't you able to do maybe more than you do right now?

Uh, we got some pretty, I would say, expected answers, right? both, the lack of external motivators like, you know, policy frameworks or regulation that would support the work they could do, and also the hard work of. You know, kind of convincing [00:10:00] clients whether those are, you know, tenants, owners, developers, to, invest in, in this work or to do things differently from the default they might have been used to previously.

And I think, that's pretty interesting. Where do you think. From your point of view, some of our roadblocks are in terms of, getting to that acceleration, right? So that we are able, we do feel we're on track to say, address the problems of climate change or to abate, you know, some of the sick building problems we've had.

Holly: Good question. I do think that the building industry has made great strides and is continuing to progress. Um, I think that the free market can't do it alone though. And so I think one of the roadblocks is, uh, lack of leadership, pushing for progress, especially at the federal level. to call for more progress in sustainable design.

Avi: Yeah,

You know, when we say that policy is one of the roadblocks, uh, I think. [00:11:00] Folks in the building industry, especially the architects and designers that you know, I interact with day and day out can feel frustrated because they don't directly influence policy.

Uh, one of the ways I think you found. A route to influencing public opinion, and therefore policy is in taking your scholarly work, say around energy efficiency, um, solar heat gain, um, thermal comfort, and translating that into strategies that. A wide audience can apply. You know, you recently worked with the Washington Post on a piece about energy upgrades that people could make to their homes now, right?

Um, affordable ones. Why is that work important to you? Why do you feel, um, why do you want to translate your scholarly work into that, you know, accessible, uh, into that accessible set of tools or strategies for folks?

Holly: Thank you for asking and thank you for noting that. most of what we're doing is [00:12:00] writing scholarly articles and, and hoping to reach other researchers or. Design teams that are implementing tools and, and maybe we're suggesting looking at things a different way, but it, it is exciting when I have an opportunity like this one.

So thank you for having me. Or with the Washington Post where I do get to try to translate some of that research for a broader audience. Um, because as we know that the building industry is one of the most fragmented industries. There are so many building owners and so many decision makers and, um.

Trying to get everyone the information needed to, to make the best decisions for their buildings is pretty difficult. So when I have an opportunity, um, I really appreciate it.

Avi: Yeah. Uh, I think that's a pretty good analysis of why, where the problem lies, right? We have so many stakeholders, buildings, I like to tell people buildings are maybe the most complex things we make as human beings. Um, right. And there's so many people involved [00:13:00] in making a building. Um, uh, why, where do you think we need to do more work, uh, between architects and other collaborators?

Like developers or clients or real estate brokers or contractors, manufac product manufacturers to move the needles, say in your work around, you know, um. Energy efficiency or energy upgrades in your work around indoor air quality, right? Where are the pieces where architects and those other stakeholders could come together in a better way to start making some changes?

Holly: Great question. This might sound strange in an era of information overload, but I think we need better access to information. So from let's say manufacturers, more information on building materials would be very helpful so that architects or owners could make more informed choices. In terms of the health impacts, in terms [00:14:00] of the lifecycle analysis, it would be great to know when our materials have chemicals that we don't need and don't want and can leave out like unhelpful state retardants, flame retardants, or antimicrobials.

I think in the real estate world. I think the industry needs to be able to price value appropriately. So, um, if you ask someone what's the difference between a $300 and a $3,000 laptop, they probably understand the differences. I think there's some difficulty with a building that is going to change hands in.

Communicating the value. So who, who is, making sustainable design choices for the long term and healthy choices for the long term? It tends to be entities that are going to own and operate their buildings for long times like universities, but in theory, um, I think because they, they realize that they will be around to see the payback, whether it's financial [00:15:00] or productivity or health.

and it's more of a challenge to. Make some of these long-term value decisions in buildings that are gonna change hands. We're gonna develop them and then sell them or, or rent them. Um, but if we had a perfectly transparent market, someone should be able to pay more for a higher value building that will pay back down the road whether they're reaping the benefits or if it's the next entity in the, in the line.

So I, I feel like if we had a better way to communicate value, whether that's through, Energy disclosure or, more information about the indoor air quality of buildings. I'm not sure what form that would take, but I think that's something that would, that would be helpful in the real estate industry.

Avi: What you just said is so, so critical. I just wanna put that in context for our listeners. So much of building activity in the United States is not ground up construction. It is retrofits [00:16:00] renovations to buildings, and those happen, you know. Yes. When owners own buildings for a long time, they want to keep them up to date, but very often they happen because of a sale, right?

Because or because of a lease, right? Somebody moves into a space, they want to make changes, or somebody buys a property and they want to make changes, and so, so much of the. Construction activity and economic activity in our industry is around those moments of change. And having a way to articulate value for sustainability at those moments of change is so critical and. every year architects in the United States report into the American industry of architects on, you know, uh, the broad trends in their billings, uh, on projects. And it's called the billing survey. And one of the stats that comes up that came, comes up over and over again, is the proportion of new construction to renovation retrofit work.

And that has hovered around 50 50 for the last few years. Um, so there's so much work going on around that, and we're. We [00:17:00] don't really have tools to articulate sustainability at that moment of change for our buildings. And I think what you're saying is just so, so critical. Uh, we are putting a small, we are putting small bandages on the situation wherever we can through energy retrofits or what we like to call adaptive reuse projects in the industry.

But I think we need a broader, systemic way to recognize that work. Um, and that is, I think, such a, such a key diagnosis that you have there. are there any developments in the building industry that feel promising to you? Things that are changing at the moment that you feel? Okay, great. I'm so glad this is finally happening.

Holly: first of all, thank you, um, for, uh, your last comment. yeah, there's many things that feel promising. I am heartened by new policies, especially at the city and state level. Um, existing [00:18:00] building standards for energy and carbon performance. I never thought in my career that we would see regulations not just for new buildings, but existing buildings.

They can't just go on being energy hogs forever. Um, and the number of cities and states with such mandates are growing and I've actually seen it, influence new building design too because, owners know that their building is going to become an existing building and eventually it's need to go, it's going to need to, to meet these reg regulations like becoming carbon neutral by the year 20.

30, 20, 35. and so it's affecting decisions about, whether we put in a electrified or fossil fuel based heating, for example. so I think I'm excited about, some of those policies, our new policies and new rating systems. Perfect. First steps never are, but I think we're learning. So, we don't have the luxury of time.

Uh, we, we have to address the, the climate crisis now. And so, um, I'm, I'm heartened when, entities are, are, are trying.

I think we're really [00:19:00] realizing how important it is to electrify buildings or switch from onsite combustion to electric appliances. Um, and I think the prospects have never been better with improvements to cooktops.

And as I mentioned in the other article, heat pumps, particularly cold climate heat pumps. I think post COVID, we're seeing a move towards better ventilation in buildings. This is an area of trade off maybe between energy slash public health or occupant health concerns, right? Since more outside air usually improves air quality, this means more air to condition.

So more energy. but we're seeing more and better energy recovery ventilation, meaning we can get more health benefits for a small fraction of the energy penalty. and I think we're on the verge of having much better affordable indoor air quality sensors, which I think paves the way for truly targeted ventilation.

Um, with all the health and energy benefits that come with that. [00:20:00] I think we'll look back on this time and think it was so strange that we had no idea what was in our air, like food before nutrition labels. And so I'm hoping that in the future we'll have better information about what's in our air. The ability to really exchange bad air when we need to and dial back on that energy use when the air's perfectly fine.

I believe that buildings with all their passive and potentially active thermal storage are an untapped resource. And as we're thinking more about, um, decarbonizing our grid, the timing of energy use and trying to align, Energy use more with times of clean renewable generation is pretty exciting.

Um, so I, I think there's more to come from the role of building design in that process. So I'm excited about a, a, a lot of new developments.

Avi: everybody seems to be aligned with the fact that we need to build more housing. Um, our downtowns I think are, I hate to say coming back, but that is what they are [00:21:00] doing. Coming back, you know, after some of the struggles in the wake of the pandemic, There seem to be economic indicators, that, you know, we're gonna start investing in construction again. and we're gonna be designing buildings, ground up buildings too, among them. Quite a lot. Is there a change you'd like to see in how we. Design buildings right now. Um, given all of these new promising things you've laid out to for us, how should that reflect in how we approach the design of buildings overall?

Holly: we've been talking technology and systems, um, but if I have to pick one change, I'm gonna go old school. I think we need better attention to window design. those low sun angles from the east and west are hard to control. Where possible can we shift some of the glass to the south for those of us in the northern hemisphere?

ideally with movable or vegetated shading, or at least some kind of shading, where necessary? I'd like to investigate the glass selection [00:22:00] more and for each orientation, um, and let's include more windows that open and open wide enough. To matter. Um, so, uh, I'm gonna go old school and say more attention to, to window design

Avi: I love that better windows, everyone, that that is actually

Holly: in the right place, the right size with the right glass, and the right amount of opening.

Avi: Absolutely. Holly, thank you so much for the time you've spent on Deep Green today. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Holly: Thank you so much for having me. Obvious. It's a real honor.

Avi: Thank you so much Holly. And for our listeners, you can find links to Holly Samuelson's research, including her work on Windows in the show notes. And of course, you'll find a link to the Metropolis interface, US Sustainable Design Report 2026. It's free to download from the Metropolis website. Deep Green is produced by the Surround Podcast Network.

This episode was produced and edited by Rob Schulte, with support from Rachel Santor, Lauren Volcker and Veryt [00:23:00] Lister. Catch our next episode very soon, wherever you get your podcasts.