The Power of Diverse Perspectives

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How can we create a better future through inclusive design? In his episode of NeoConversations host and editor-in-chief of METROPOLIS Avi Rajagopal sits down with design powerhouses and speakers at this year’s NeoCon—Cheryl Durst, executive vice president and CEO of IIDA, and Jason Pugh, principal design manager and global director of diversity equity and inclusion at Gensler—to discuss the importance of diverse perspectives in interior design.

Listen as Durst and Pugh share their journeys to their various leadership roles, the values and methods at the core of their work, the missed opportunities for diversity they see in the design professions, and the concepts and ideas they are most excited about today.

NeoConversations is produced by the SURROUND Podcast Network in partnership with Turf.  Visit us at surroundpodcasts.com!

Avi: [00:00:00] Welcome to Neo Conversations. I’m Avi Rajagopal, your host today and the Editor in Chief of Metropolis. This year on Neo Conversations, we’re going to talk about some of the most exciting thinkers and doers in the design world about the power of interiors. Welcome to Neo Conversations. I’m Aviraj Gopal, your host today and the Editor in Chief of Metropolis.

This year on Neo Conversations, we’re going to talk to some of the most exciting thinkers and doers in the design world about the power of interiors. Today, you’ll hear some deep and thought provoking conversations about the power of diverse perspectives with design powerhouses. Cheryl Durst, who’s the Executive Vice President and CEO of IIDA, and Jason Pugh, who’s a Principal Design Manager and Global Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at Gensler.

This series of [00:01:00] NeoConversations is brought to you in partnership with Turf. So Cheryl, first of all, thank you so much for joining us today.

Cheryl: Happy to be here, Avi. I’m excited for this conversation.

Avi: Absolutely, because I don’t think anybody has the perspective on the interior design profession quite like you do.

And so the first thing I wanted to ask you was, you know, we’re about four years out from all the craziness of 2020 at the moment. How do you think the profession of interior design has changed?

Cheryl: Okay, so first of all, isn’t it amazing that we’re four years out? Like, people have started college and finished college, or started high school and finished.

I mean, four years is a substantial amount of time, and I, I think that we have yet to aggregate all of the lessons learned. I think somewhere out there is, is wanting to be a great book about lessons learned during the pandemic. I’ve seen a lot of great lists for sure. And given the amnesia that human beings have, collecting what we’ve learned, how [00:02:00] we’ve changed, what we’ve become as a country, as a world, as a society through the pandemic.

From a anthropologist standpoint, I’m fascinated about how we as human beings are kind of taking and internalizing those lessons as a profession, you know, very often, as much as design leads, design is very responsive as well. And so I think. design and being responsive to some of those lessons learned, some of those behavioral things or attitudinal things during the pandemic.

I, I have this sense, right? None of us were immune at all to the effects of the pandemic, but I think from a very human standpoint, we crave Simplicity and clarity and agility and belonging. And I see design in many ways, responding to those very human things, [00:03:00] especially, you know, the belonging piece, right?

I know that we talked about being inclusive. We talked about the places that we inhabit. Being accessible, but certainly in coming through the pandemic and post George Floyd, this greater focus on not just creating place, but creating places where people belong. I think that has been one of those then and now moments.

And then this idea of clarity and simplicity. I think that we, as a culture, we had so many things thrown at us during the pandemic that we didn’t quite know how to contend with. And I think that design is an amazing translator of the human experience. And so I hear more designers and more firms talking about inserting themselves more fully in helping clients understand exactly why a place needs to be this or why behavior [00:04:00] needs to be that.

And a greater reliance on evidence based design and research, not necessarily proving a case, but explaining a case for design being important at any moment in history or time, especially now, as we’re trying to figure out what the world has in front of us.

Avi:  Let’s take those ideas in two sets. Simplicity and clarity and agility, right?

Understanding and then responding and responding quickly and nimbly. And IIDA has always done such a great job of keeping professionals connected with each other and keeping that sense of support, helping everybody stay on track, keep an eye on where things are moving. Tell us about that IIDA’s work in building community and some of the initiatives you have going on, because I think that’s been also absolutely central in helping the profession stay connected and respond in the best way possible.

Cheryl: A couple things. I don’t [00:05:00] ever want to underestimate the sense of comfort that organizations offer to the communities that they serve and support. And so I know during the pandemic, IIDA became a rallying point for our community. I won’t just say for members, but for our community. And so offering this sense of We’re here for you.

We’re always here for you, good times and bad. So just having something to rally around for a comfort standpoint. And then the clarity standpoint. We had so many of our chapters who continue to do activities and initiatives, but we needed guidelines. How do you do a design awards program when people can’t convene?

You know, how do you deploy, um, the activities of sponsors when people can’t be together in the same room? And so offering some comfort in the midst of chaos, some clarity in the midst of chaos. One of the things though, post pandemic that I have seen in great proliferation is the [00:06:00] celebration of design and it’s not frivolous, it’s not patting ourselves on the back, but there is in advancing the profession and recognizing the great work.

That is done by, uh, designers and by firms, design celebrations have expanded. I have the great fortune of being able to emcee a lot of the local chapter design awards programs. IIDA, we do 12 international design awards programs. And so a little bit of that too, Avi, I think is the beauty of there are projects out there to celebrate that design didn’t stop during the pandemic.

And we’re now seeing the result. Of a lot of the hard work that was done remotely. Like I just recently viewed some hospital projects where folks were never in the same room together, but they were seeing some of these projects come to fruition where the designers and the clients were never in. A charrette or never in a focus group or never in a session together.

And we’re seeing the results of some [00:07:00] amazing hybrid work that was done during the pandemic. And so this celebration of design is, I think, is an incredible community builder. It helps advance the profession and it also shows clients as well. The beauty and not just the aesthetic beauty, but the beauty of what design can do.

And within those projects, we’re seeing a lot of focus on sustainability, on social justice, on belonging that a lot of our particularly chapters are calling out projects that nod toward EDI or that have special sustainability attributes. And so celebrating what sometimes we didn’t always celebrate in the past has come to the forefront.

Avi: Yeah, it almost feels like during Some of the most challenging times we’ve rediscovered and we’re kind of reveling in the power and the purpose of design. And I think that’s just been so wonderful.

Cheryl: Well, in those constraints, right? Sometimes the best design comes out of heavy constraints and If another word can be applied to the pandemic, it was indeed a constraint, [00:08:00] but we’re seeing some amazing work come out of projects that were worked on during the pandemic.

Avi: Let’s return to that idea of belonging. I mean, you personally have been such a champion for equity and diversity. In the design professions, in the world at large, under your leadership, I think IIDA, but also so many other organizations have been able to really put in some new effort and new energy into diversifying our profession.

How do you think those values of equity and diversity and inclusion can be strengthened within our A& E community?

Cheryl: Such a great question. And thank you for asking that, Avi. I think particularly now where efforts around equity, diversity and inclusion are being weaponized, where those are often words that can’t be used in a lot of places, that we still continue the work that before we even get to equity, diversity and inclusion, we have to be awake.

We have to be aware. I think now people are [00:09:00] seeing instances, they’re seeing systemic racism that was hidden under a lot of things, policies, tradition, ritual. I think there’s been a, an unveiling, as it were, of a lot of things that people took for granted. And so, whether it’s something as simple as thinking about the places where you’re recruiting talent from, I know that there are a lot of folks out there, Who never realized or they traditionally had never recruited from HBCUs that, you know, that becomes an avenue or thinking about neurodiversity or thinking about all the different ways we assemble.

I think just. Staying aware and whatever the ism is, right? Whether it’s ageism, whatever the ism is, I think we shouldn’t become numb to it. We should just stay awake and aware about all the places. That design can influence belonging, and that’s the conversation that we’re continually having at IIDA and increasing that awareness, not [00:10:00] lecturing people, not making them feel badly about what they were not aware of before.

But it’s just like, let’s all just keep our eyes open for instances where we can create belonging, where it may not have existed before.

Avi: Yeah, because I think that’s what designers do best, right? When we learn new things, we discover new perspectives, it becomes a part of our process. We then synthesize it into how we design space.

And I think this is just another thing for us to be aware of, as you said, learn and bring into our work, because you can’t unsee things once you’ve seen them.

Cheryl: You can’t unsee it. And I think particularly now, it maybe is requiring a bit more care. Courage than it perhaps did in the past, right? Because the societal and political pressures that are out there, it is requiring us to be more courageous about our conversations and about being intentional, all things EDI and belonging.

Avi: Well, as you said, constraints should empower us. So that’s right. That’s right. We should rise [00:11:00] to the challenge. Well, Cheryl, as you’re looking to the future, you know, I know nobody has a crystal ball, but if anybody has anything close to a crystal ball, it’s you. What has you excited today? What are you intrigued about in terms of what designers are thinking about, what designers are working on, what you see out there in the world and all the projects that you review day in and day out?

Cheryl: Um, I have about a million answers for that question. I have this insatiable curiosity about what designers are thinking and talking about. This revived interest in this connection between place and purpose and experience. Designers have always thought about the experience side. I don’t know that clients have always been aware.

That design is deeply invested in the experience of place. So I love that conversation is happening. I think confidence, consumer and client confidence. [00:12:00] Once upon a time, it was a predictable data point. It’s not so predictable now. And so how we are thinking about data and humanizing data in our industry will become increasingly important.

Place, how we have all of these, and I know Avi, you’re having this conversation, all how we’re reallocating excess. And so whether that is excess office real estate and how that could potentially be reallocated into residential spaces, excess office furniture, thinking leases are getting shorter, but we also know the human desire to Buy new every time they move into a new space.

And so I’m kind of fascinated around this movement of refurbishing office furniture and then reusing it. And then just excess places like malls are being repurposed as schools, as venues for [00:13:00] exercise. Retail isn’t dead though, because you think about entities like Allbirds and Wayfair and Warby Parker, who started out as completely digital, but now Wayfair just opened a brick and mortar store here in the Chicago area.

And so I think it’s just such a big thing. Fascinating time because of its unpredictableness. So I think for us as a profession to hone our skills around analytics and to hone our skills around being futurists, it’s a key competency of interior design. And to be more strategic in our foresight is going to be key to the future of interior design.

One of the things, Avi, that designers do best are put together these disparate set of conditions and facts. And while I wouldn’t say that designers can quite be fortune tellers, they are exquisite at strategic foresight. So [00:14:00] recognizing that as a skill set and a competency of interior design, but knowing that we need to expand that wherewithal, IIDA is debuting.

This is new information. We’re really excited about it. We are debuting a curriculum based around a certification and that certification is a certified design futurist, and it will be a six week certification course. That at the end of that course, the student will receive the Certificate in Design Forecasting and Strategic Design Insight.

And for us as IIDA, it is all about giving this opportunity for designers to expand their current scope of services and to expand the competencies and skill sets that are offered to clients.

Avi: Wow, that sounds so fantastic, and it’s exactly the kind of thing you’ve always done so incredibly well at IIDA, which is to, you know, really respond to the [00:15:00] times and provide just the right resources that our community needs at the moment.

Thank you, Cheryl, for taking the time to talk to me today. But also for continuing to do this work of helping us build both clarity and belonging in the design community. We truly, truly appreciate everything you do. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Avi. Happy Neocon. I’m always happy to talk to you.

Happy Neocon. Happy Neocon. Thank you so much, Jason, for joining us today.

Jason: Thank you for having me.

Avi: So Jason, tell me a little bit of your journey to. leadership position at Gensler as global director of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You’ve held many positions in the industry. You were a former president of NOMA and such a voice in our profession.

Just what, how did you get here?

Jason: Absolutely. Well, again, Avi, thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here and to speak with you today. So my [00:16:00] journey into architecture really started At an earlier age when I was in middle school and actually it was through visual arts. So like a lot of architects started out as an artist and I was growing up, born and raised in Denver, Colorado, and, um, found art through family and friends and really started to excel at art at a very, very early age.

I would create pieces, unique pieces, working in different mediums, and then I would sell my artwork at different. Street festivals and church functions and Juneteenth celebrations, cultural celebrations. And I was always featured as the, the youth artists, right? And my mom was serving as my business manager and she was kind of helping me at a very early age.

And I would go to these art shows and I would connect with a lot of the artists that were there. You know, again, I would always, there would always be some type of promotion or marketing around me. The youth [00:17:00] artists that was being featured at these are art shows. And so I would naturally connect with some of the other artists and then over time build some really great relationships.

And they started to serve as mentors for me in a lot of capacities and just work with me throughout the year, throughout the school year. And just teach me different aspects of the business. And, and I would tell you that these were some amazing, amazing local and national artists, but they all, with the exception of one who was really, really, I think on like a global stage, but the most of them really fit the cliche, starving artists.

I, at a very early age, well, one didn’t think that I could ever be as good as they were then too. Wanted to try to find a professional career path where I could utilize my artistic skill sets and talents, but there was also a clear path for me to follow. Right? I didn’t feel like I needed necessarily to go to school.

So to be an artist, I was already working as a young artist. And so I wanted to try to find a career path that was [00:18:00] respectable and that I could make a decent salary and living. And I had an art teacher that recommended architecture and Even though I didn’t know any architects at the time, I definitely didn’t know any, uh, minority architects for whatever reason, for somehow it just clicked for me.

And I knew early on, like, eighth ninth grade that that’s what I want to do. I want to be an architect. Ended up going to undergrad at Howard University, one of seven HBCUs that has an accredited architectural program. And, you know, it was there that I really connected. For the first time with my village and I found a lot of mentors, professors that would go on to become lifelong friends and really started to invest in me and see a lot of potential in me.

And it was also one of the first times that I actually got involved with Noma. I helped resurrect the student chapter of Noma on Howard’s campus and school of architecture and started to get engaged with local professionals and leaders in Noma in the D. C. area. And it was just an amazing [00:19:00] experience. At Howard, when I came out of the program, which at the time had a five year BA program, went to Columbia University in New York, where I got a master’s in architecture and urban design, I technically did not need to go to grad school.

You know, Howard has a professional degree program. I could have entered into the workforce, but for me, there was something about urban design that really struck me. I, I just love the community engagement component to it. And. You know how the local context could really influence a site or a project or a design.

And it really just encouraged me to pursue, to get a little bit more training and education around urban design. And that experience in another tough as Columbia was amazing. It was a three semester program, tightly condensed into a single year. I think one of the things that I really took away from my time at Columbia was there are about 40 students in my class and some were fresh, fresh.

Graduates from undergrad, like me coming to grad school, I just completed my thesis two weeks prior, and [00:20:00] I was starting the grant program at Columbia that summer. But then I had classmates, they were in their mid thirties, and they have their own practice in Prague and decided that they wanted to study urban design.

And so these were my classmates in every single project. Grad school was a group project. And so I really learned a lot from my classmates just in terms of like collaboration and just being able to, I think, effectively work across teams, be able to effectively communicate and advocate for your design and your concept and do this within a group setting.

And so there was just a lot that I absorbed and learned at that time. Unfortunately, when I was at Columbia, because the program was so intense. My involvement with NOMA was put on hold and there was no way I could really fully engage and participate in the local New York chapter of NOMA. And I don’t think Columbia had a NOMAS chapter at that time.

But when I graduated and moved to Chicago, I [00:21:00] completely re engaged and I was super excited to re engage with NOMA and started to kind of build my own connection and network here in Chicago. On the professional side, I set out a long time ago to get licenses in both disciplines as both an architect and an urban designer.

And so a lot of my projects I’ve been able to luckily oscillate between the macro and micro skills, working on a lot of large community based master planning projects. And every now and then I get to do some of that first phase architecture for those master plans, which typically Look is more in the form of mixed use developments, ground level, retail, residential, affordable housing projects, some centered around like TODs, transit oriented developments, or others serving as catalytic projects to help spur economic growth and development within an underserved or marginalized community.

So both my work and I would say advocacy piece and leadership as it relates [00:22:00] to NOMA. Really has just found a way to net together and I think just support, um, my thought and position around the impact of architecture design and what we can do for, for all communities.

Avi: Absolutely. I think there’s a, first of all, there’s a lot of parts of your story that I think many of us who are minorities in the design professions.

can relate to or would resonate with us. And so thank you so much for sharing that. I want to pick up on that last idea around your work with community. That’s really been a through line for you, as you said, whether it’s in your advocacy work or in your work in architecture and urban planning, are there a core set of values, like things that you absolutely hold dear that are at the heart of that work for you, things that motivate you through those projects and through those processes?

Jason: Absolutely. It’s interesting when people ask me about my work and, you know, if there’s any areas of expertise, you know, at this point in my career, you know, I often [00:23:00] mentioned that, you know, for me, it’s all about the work and underserved, marginalized, distressed and disinvested communities, right? And I don’t care in terms of typology.

I don’t really care if it’s a data center or community center. If it’s in a black and brown community and there is a community engagement component to it, I’m all in it. Those are a type of projects that I want to touch. Any project has the potential to change a community. And if you change enough communities, you can change the world.

That’s a quote that I, I really live by and I, and I believe, and it’s something that has really, I think, kind of guided my approach as it relates to Gensler being the largest Firm in the world that that’s no longer enough. It’s, it’s, it’s not enough for us to just be the largest architecture design firm in the world.

You know, we’re really focused on being the most impactful design firm in the world. And so what does that mean? And I think it means that we recognize that through the power of the inclusion [00:24:00] of diverse teams, diverse thoughts, diverse leadership, diverse experience, we’re really able to. Enhance the impact of design when you look at that potential, right?

And we talk about designing for a radically changing world, which was actually a new publication and book that our former co CEOs, Andy and Diane, uh, released, you know, it’s really much more than just the bare bones or the aesthetics, right? It’s about the impact and us really uncovering how places and spaces, these moments where we spend most of our time.

How we can shape these environments and really, really just profound ways. I think our innovative designs really help redefine that urban experience, really helping to find a way to integrate it and of all the needs of work life and recreation, right? Where we live, work and play. To restore people’s sense of wellbeing and stability and community and just help revitalize those human [00:25:00] connections.

I think we recognize that quality design services should be provided to all communities. And when you look at the work and the clientele base, Of most architectural practices and most of the global firms, you know, really, I would say like 99 percent of our work is serving the contractual clients of the 1%.

At least for Gensler, there’s a lot more focus and intentionality around us finding ways to actually flip that model and ensure that we’re able to provide those quality design services to the communities that need it the most, that other 99%. Um, of the world population that can truly, I think, benefit from the, the real impact of design,

Avi: you know, so much of our work is in downtowns in sort of business districts in neighborhoods that are undergoing change.

And I think there’s, there’s a whole other world out there of people of communities that need design. And so thank you so much for [00:26:00] acknowledging that and for talking about diversity, not just within the design profession or in the outcomes of our work or inclusion or justice and those things. But also diversity, inclusion, and justice in the types of communities that we engage with.

I would say maybe there’s a coda to your, to your quote, which is amazing, by the way, that when you change communities, you can change the world. I think there’s another thing is that when you, when you shape environments, you change communities. And I think that’s really vital. And I thank you for drawing that through line for us.

You’re at Nia Khan at the Mart. And of course we are on the official Nia Conversations podcast here. You are part of a group discussing diversity in practice. And I just want to bring your focus to diversity in the design professions itself, it’s advocacy work you’ve been involved in since you’re the first years of your undergraduate education, as you explained to us.

You know, where are some of the opportunities that still lie out there? Where should we focus our attention and efforts as an industry to make sure that, you know, we have the design professionals, the [00:27:00] architects, the urban planners, the interior designers, who are equipped to serve the needs of those communities that you mentioned.

Jason: There’s a great opportunity for us to really explore the intersectionality between climate change and diversity, equity, inclusion. I think that was really, that multiplier is pretty impactful and powerful and it’s pretty impactful and powerful. If you really think about it, when it comes down to the impact of climate change and our cities and our communities, you know, those communities, populations that are most impacted by natural disasters are the ones that Lower socioeconomic communities, those that don’t have a voice, those that are often, they have development and homes and communities that are built within these floodplains.

These are really, I think, the communities that are impacted the most, and we’ve even seen it just in with the most recent global pandemic that unfolded, right? As we were looking at these [00:28:00] multiplying crises around mental health, social injustice, and economic volatility, climate change, and just the heightened, uh, Global geopolitical tensions that are really starting to rise.

I think you saw that when it came to the built environment and our spaces and communities, access to healthcare, transportation, food, deserts, affordable housing, all of those things really, I think, exacerbated those population communities the most when it came to those who were impacted by COVID and passed away from the virus.

It was really distressing. I think in a lot of ways to just see the neglect, well, the impact of the neglect, the very intentional neglect, and to be quite honest, the intentional design of these communities over the course of the last few decades and generations, right. And to see all that kind of come to a head and impact under certain marginalized communities in such a detrimental way, I think for [00:29:00] us, we’re really focused on just.

Finding, again, I think, ways that design has the power to rectify the inequities and inequalities and, and welcome this unifying diverse populations and empower the historically disenfranchised communities and try to find a way to bring healing to the victims of violence and aggression and, and disinvestment that has really plagued at least the U.

  1. I had so many different ways and I think we must find a way the same way that design got us into this problem. I think design can get us out. We must use design to restore dignity and equity in our cities and our communities and try to correct these past instances that I was referencing where design was used to divide, separate and market the haves and have nots.

I think you do that through individual and systematic acts of equality and, and the intolerance that we’re, I think we’re looking for the injustice that we’re seeing across the built environment. And you just try to find a way to. [00:30:00] Build safer communities and secure housing, education, transportation, food and public space.

And there’s so many opportunities for us to have these touch points and find a way to do it effectively. And so design can truly be that catalyst for positive change. And I think a signal that the community is valued and supported and part of that process.

Avi: Absolutely. And I think, you know, you mentioned earlier that some of these communities have been Say marginalized almost by design.

And I think we used to call them fence line communities and it’s almost like, uh, these, we, we sacrifice these communities for us to have the, the life and conveniences that we have in the more privileged parts of our cities and our neighborhoods. And I think we just can’t continue to accept that anymore in the design professions.

Jason: I agree. I couldn’t agree with you more. This is an interesting moment. There have been a lot of gains in the last four or five years. I think. A lot of intentionality, and we’ve brought a lot of attention and focus, and we’ve amplified a lot of voices in this space. Even right now in this [00:31:00] moment, today, this year, when you look at the building design industry, you have a collection of black female leaders that are running the design organizations in the industry.

You have Ronnie Bellazar serving as president for IIDA. You have, uh, Pascal Sablon, my successor, serving as the national president of NOMA. You have Angela Brooks, who is serving as the very first black female president of the APA. And of course, you have Kimberly Del Del, who is my predecessor for NOMA, who is serving as the first black female leader The national president of AIA, this is unprecedented and to have four plus black women leading the industry in this moment and an opportunity for change, I think is just amazing.

I think one thing that we should try to be a little bit more intentional of, I’m a little actually disappointed that we haven’t really amplified and promoted this, you know, monumentous and historic moment or [00:32:00] occasion. You know, I think what we’ve done, we’ve done a good job of preaching to the choir.

We’re sharing this story with those of us in our industry, but this is something that when you talk about really amplifying the impact of design and trying to diversify the pipeline and really getting our story out there, you know, I would love to see more attention to focus in terms of sharing this historic moment with those outside of the building design industry.

So they can understand. That there are minority design practitioners that out there that are making a change and really having an impact on our industry. We have this amazing representation of leadership while at the same time, DE and I and ESG initiatives and efforts is under attack and they are rolling back affirmative action and with it, DEI principles and strategies.

It’s an interesting. It’s a moment that we find ourself in where things are politicized and super controversial. And I think there’s a lot of intentional, I [00:33:00] would say, separation, segregation, and even just dissent that’s really populating a lot of the conversations, which is making it super challenging in this moment.

Avi: Absolutely. And you know, and this, I would say. Our codes of ethics and our principles of design excellence within the built environment are, should be our guiding lights. And regardless of. What opinions may be on the impact of our work as professionals. We recognize that we have a certain impact and that there are certain ways in which we can maximize that impact.

And all big professions face this at some point in our lives. And I’m certain that we will pull through if we hold to our principles and our core values. And those are the ones you’ve laid out. So I’m with you there, Jason. Well, we’re so glad to have you in the position you’re in, and we’re glad to have many of your peers and others who are working to keep this going.

You know, a spotlight on how design can actually be a tool for systemic change. So thank you so much, Jason, for joining us today and for talking to us [00:34:00] about the power of diversity and the power of design. And that I really appreciate our time together.

Jason: Absolutely. Thanks. Appreciate you having me.

Avi: This series of new conversations. Is brought to you in partnership with turf. Neo conversations is produced by the surround podcasts network in partnership with turf during the econ. You can visit us at the surround podcast booth by snap cab on the first floor of the mark and after neocon head on over. to surroundpodcasts. com. A big thank you to our guests, to our producers, Hannah Viti and Bob Schulte, and the rest of the amazing Surround Podcast team. And thanks of course, to our partner, Turf. Stay tuned for more Neo Conversations, wherever you get your podcasts.

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Avi Rajagopal

Avinash Rajagopal is the editor in chief of Metropolis, an award-winning architecture and design publication. He is a frequent speaker and moderator at events related

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