PVC Perspectives: The Path Forward

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Welcome to Deep Green. I'm your host, Avi Rajagopal, the editor in chief of the Architecture and Interior Design Magazine, metropolis. Today we're bringing you a special episode of Deep Green, created with our partner, Mannington Commercial.

Polly Vinyl chloride is one of the most ubiquitous plastics in our lives.

You might know it better as PVC or vinyl and it's everywhere. Pipes, siding, wiring, flooring, upholstery, wall coverings, and yes, old school music records. I. 61% of all PVC produced in the world is used in buildings and construction. It's more fire retardant than any other common plastic. And when we add in chemicals called plasticizers, it can be as flexible as cloth or as rigid as wood.[00:01:00]

In certain types of buildings, like hospitals or hotels, any place where we need surfaces that can take patterns in color while still being long lasting and easy to maintain. PVC products have become absolutely commonplace,

But many sustainability experts at architecture and design teams are advising their teams to avoid PVC as much as possible. If PVC is not manufactured or disposed of responsibly, it can expose people in factories or living near incinerators to harmful chemicals called dioxin.

Also, PVC that isn't well regulated can have other chemicals of concern in it, like heavy metals. For these reasons, the International Living Future Institute still lists PVC on its red list. So how can we approach this conundrum? Should we invest in making PVC as cleanly as possible, or should we keep searching for alternative materials that can give us the same [00:02:00] benefits?

Today we talk to three experts who represent three perspectives on this situation. Shane Totten is the Director of Sustainability at Mannington Commercial, which offers certified and transparent PVC flooring as well as non PVC resilient flooring. I. David Brefa is a sustainability director and principal at the architecture and design firm, Gensler and one of the creators of the Gensler product sustainability standards, a set of requirements for products that are used on gensler's projects, including flooring and wall coverings.

1. And Ansy Barfield, who is an interior design specialist at Lab Bella Associates, where she works on the kinds of projects where PVC is often the first choice for flooring or wall protection, educational institutions, healthcare spaces, and senior living facilities. Here are Shane, David, and Ansy.

Avi: hin, why don't we start with you.

Can [00:03:00] you give us an overview of how Mannington has been grappling with the. Question of PVC and PVC alternatives over the last few years, both in terms of, you know, responsibly manufacturing the PVC products that you do make, as well as developing new product lines and like kind of testing out new chemistries.

with PVC.

Shane: Sure. That's a great question. It's you know, I like to start my conversations with designers asking them if. They still design buildings and interior environments the way they did 50 years ago. And I think that's an important leading question because it opens up designers to the idea that even manufacturers evolve over time and that the supply chain evolves over time.

And so things aren't always where designers believe they are with regard to products and product safety and even what's the best [00:04:00] product for the best application. And I would say that, on the American manufacturing side, I'm clear to make that distinction for a couple of reasons. I'll, explain resume manufacturing for PVC specifically has evolved.

It is highly efficient, uh, both in terms of energy and material use, and it's a closed system, and I think that when you look at the way the processes that are used in those environments have evolved from the nasty mercury and the nasty asbestos diaphragm to the modern membranes that are in closed loop systems.

You see a strategic evolution over the quality of the product. I think that when you look at how end products have also evolved, and we are talking about the elimination of heavy metals and toxic additives like ortho phthalates and PFAS, coatings, we see new [00:05:00] products on the market. The American PVC resin industry is highly regulated.

OSHA limits the amount of time. Workers can be exposed to single digit parts per million, of the product. In 2022, the vinyl value chains collective incident rate was 30% below the rest of chemical industries. In the United States, it was 20% of manufacturing's rates overall in the country. Emissions are tightly controlled by the government.

They're down 86 to 96% since 1987, and from resume manufacturers, they contribute less than 0.6 of a percent nationally when you're talking about emissions related to vinyl manufacturing, even DOT, the Department of Transportation. Regulates the transportation of ingredients across the value chain. Some more stringently than others. [00:06:00] Going back to Mannington. As a manufacturer, we've eliminated 15 ingredients and classes of ingredients from our products because we learned over time that those were materials of concern and we needed to eliminate them for both our associates safety, but also our customers safety. So we look at a process of continuous improvement every day, and we use that to challenge ourselves.

And we add to that rigor of trying to be better every day by setting the standard that we operate by. What I mean by that is we've adopted a supplier code of conduct that really regulates what we expect to see from our supply chain. Uh, and within that there's a material substance managed list. So this NSL restricts.

Certain chemicals to certain uses, some outright, and then it monitors others so that we can better understand, how they're acting in our products. [00:07:00] And all of that is so that we build trust and we can build a transparency that we offer to our customers through our transparency documents. We don't hide anything that's in our product.

You can see a hundred percent of the ingredients at a hundred parts per million. And that always hasn't been the case. And so I think this building over time, this continuous improvement where we raise the bar, we raise the expectation of ourselves and our supply chain, um, are really creating amazing products, uh, that perform in many different ways.

You know, our highest priority as a business is our associate safety. Our owners actually walk the floors of our manufacturing sites all the time, and they can look our associates in the eye because they are demonstrating that care, that safety for their wellbeing as we make products for the public.

Avi: Absolutely. and I think that's, incredible right? That Mannington [00:08:00] has, taken those tests, especially your, your supplier standards, and providing that transparency, which, you know, is truly remarkable in our industry. That's absolutely fantastic. you've also though added, New options when it comes to resilient flooring alongside your, you know, traditional product, which has also taken a lot of innovation and development. Do you wanna say a, a word or two about that, shane

Shane: Sure there's an enormous, pressure in certain markets across the country for. PVC free options and we recognize that and we respect, our design industry's ability to sort of meet their needs and their goals with products that, that fit those goals. So we have worked on developing PVC free products that, meat in both soft surface and resilient surface.

So we now offer a PVC free modular carpet backing. that comes at no cost. No [00:09:00] minimum, you just check one box or the other, and we wanted to make it that simple because we wanted to convey to our customers that we are happy with either choice. We have amazingly high confidence in either backing, but it's up to you to decide.

On the hard surface side, we obviously have our rubber products that we've made over a number of years that serve that, uh, that desire really well. But some people like the resilient, uh, aesthetic of, luxury vinyl tile or plank. So coming up with a non vinyl option of that was a priority of our product teams.

And so we offered proxy. As an alternative, we are working on a sheet, uh, a resilient sheet that is vinyl free so that that can be used as well. But those products, they have their consequences just like PVC. And so when we go into conversations with designers who are looking at one product or the [00:10:00] other.

free is one of the, the metrics they're using to make a decision. We want them to do that with as much accurate information as possible. sure, we want you to buy our products, but we want you to buy the right product for the right application and for the right goals that you've got.

Avi: Absolutely. And I think making that determination, is not easy as most designers and specifiers working in the field today, know, there's so many factors that play into that. And David, I'd love to bring you in on this. You were one of the people who worked on, Gensler's product sustainability standards, which, has been an incredible already, you know, a change agent in our industry, where Gensler was able to kind of set a standard for the products that you specify on your, projects.

And I'm sure PVC was. Somewhere in those deliberations. so can you give us a little bit of the behind the scenes on that in terms of, you know, what discussions you had, but also, how do the Gensler product sustainability [00:11:00] standards actually approach, PVC products, especially in flooring and wall coverings?

David: Sure. it definitely came up, it was a part of the conversation. it, it might be useful to take a quick step back and just describe a little bit of the structure of the Gensler product sustainability standards, or I'll, I'll call them GPS for short. The way that we, we created the standards was we, assigned two levels of performance.

So there's a Gensler standard, which is what is required for all of our projects in US, Canada, and then Europe and uk, and for a predominant list of, of materials that, that are high impact, high volume that we use on our, our projects, we set a list of criteria that would, would apply So the standard is essentially a requirement that we, we apply to those product typologies in those markets. We also created a separate level performance called market differentiator. And the market differentiator is really our means to market [00:12:00] signal to manufacturers to say there are certain things that we would love to put as a requirement, as part of the standard, but. Maybe there's not enough maturity in the, in the market yet on those particular attributes.

And those are things that we would like to see in the future. And so when you look at the way that we have it structured so far with basically all class-based substance avoidance, we've put those attributes only in the market differentiators. They don't currently exist in the standards. And so that's where PVC would fall.

so if you start to look at at products. Like carpet, you look at resilient flooring, uh, wall covering and textiles. they will all mention the class-based avoidance in the market differentiator. And PVC is is among those those types of ingredients that would, that would show up there.

we definitely looked at including this in the standard. and there were a number of different [00:13:00] factors that. prevented us from, from doing that, and I can go through a few of those. so one challenge that we're faced with is when we start to ask for this type of transparency, we can ask for the transparency as part of the submittal process, but it's very difficult for us and, problematic for us to ask our teams to actually review.

The ingredients and make determinations about what's in or are not in a product. so that becomes a challenge. And so for, in order for our teams to validate that we've actually avoided, an ingredient, we really need to lean heavily on, on third party validation. And that sort of pushes a lot of products towards getting that third party validation.

And there's still a bit of lack of, um, volume of, of those types of products that are available in the market. One of the core methodologies for determining whether or not something could be included in the standard was to make sure that there was enough products available so we weren't burdening [00:14:00] the cost of, of a typical project.

so that, that was one factor that came up. another factor that, you know for us, is that if we were gonna start to push for alternatives to PVC. Start to remove some ingredients. We, we wanna make sure that whatever the substitute that's being provided, and this goes back a little bit to what Shane was talking about, if we're starting to see alternatives, that those are also meeting the types of criteria and sufficiently meeting the types of criteria and have been tested in third party validated, um, and peer reviewed to ensure that they're not causing other types of harm.

you know, we're not just looking at this from. Human health perspective, we're looking at it from, you know, carbon, whole life perspective, social impact perspective. So we wanna make sure that, that the alternatives have also been validated from, from all of those lenses as well. so, you know, we hope to in future iterations, and that the intent of of GPS is always to evolve over time and start to get more [00:15:00] stringent, that we would be able to move.

Some of this class-based substance avoidance into the standard itself. and we're hoping that through, including it in the market differentiator, that we'll start to see more volume of these materials that have been third party verified. and we get more and better information on some of the alternatives and, and then it becomes, uh, commonplace and we can request them without impacting our projects.

Avi: I'll just pull that thread, through both your comments and Shane's comments that, you know, regardless of any particular chemistry, our hope is that, all materials in the built environment are specified with care and attention to long-term consequences. and, you know, impact and.

there's no shortcuts here, right? just because something is PVC free doesn't, you know, immediately, suggest that it's a better alternative. [00:16:00] Neither does, you know, just because something is made of PVC or immediately suggest, suspect manufacturing practices. And I think, Uh, getting to that level of sophistication of thinking is, you know, really important because, we shouldn't be making, you know, decisions, in the short term.

And I really appreciate the care that you've taken with the GPS, David and your team, in terms of making sure that, you know, whatever standards you set and differentiators you set are pragmatic, but they also provide multiple pathways, and I think that's really important. Ansy, I'd love to bring you in on this, as a designer who.

Designs for, you know, some very critical types of projects, very high performance, high traffic, and I will say in some cases, budget constrained or regulation constrained spaces. you have a very specific, uh, case example why, you know, a firm cannot set a, you know, one size fits all policy here.

 Tell me a little bit about how you [00:17:00] approach specifying. PVC product, especially in healthcare or senior living contexts.

Annzie: when thinking about the materials going into a healthcare environment, the first things you really think about are durability, cleanability, and safety. for the end users. and so you really kind of have to think through, in the beginning what's the best solutions. For this project goal.

and like you said, you've gotta think about everything, you know, including, budget constraints. one of the things as a designer, that I really enjoy is meeting with the user groups and talking with them and trying to hear what their vision is Of this in goal product upfit. and really kind of how can I give them the look that they're looking for, whether it's senior living, whether it's a medical office building.

and these projects range, you know, the, they may be like a small medical office building, or it could be a large, you know, 200 bed hospital. [00:18:00] so you really kind of have to break down those areas. lots of users have a lot of opinions. About what they want to see. so what we have to do is educate them on the best materials to use.

you know, you were talking about, the flooring, wall covering. I mean, wall protection is a huge component, in healthcare. so trying to meld all these materials together to give this. Now trending hospitality, you know, biophilic design. and, and we kind of lay those out and look at 'em. And vinyl floorings have a huge component into that.

you know, I, my previous life I was in, Commercial and hospitality. I didn't use a lot of vinyl flooring there. in healthcare you can't put wood floors down. sometimes you can't put natural stone in for safety purposes. so one of the things that I really appreciate are the companies like Mannington [00:19:00] providing.

Multiple flooring, not only types, but also looks and styles. and so that really kind of helps us create, a vision for the user groups of what they're looking for. you know, one of the conversations Shane and I even had was one of the things a lot of the healthcare facilities are doing away with carpet.

but then you have all these hard surfaces and hard appearances. Um, well, Mannington working on, Designs that give that softer, almost carpet appearance on that. which is really great, because that's a, infection control item that's coming across the board on a lot of things. so I just, you know, we, we step back.

We, you know, again, like I said, we think about those first points of, okay, you know, we're in a healthcare environment. What's appropriate to put in what areas? you know, you've got areas such as waiting rooms, you've got ORs, you've got exam rooms, you have labs. and each one of those areas have different [00:20:00] requirements that you have to think about and users approach different ways.

I mean, we'll have an OR where, you know, they want rubber flooring. Another facility may not want rubber flooring because they say it's too soft and it's difficult to move the equipment around when doing surgeries. and some of the solutions would be to put a resin flooring in. Well, that's too hard because the surgeons are standing for multiple hours.

So you really have to listen to the users, and what their needs are, and really try to help educate them and hope that we make the best decision for them.

Avi: you know, that's so true, Ansy. And ultimately what we want is environments that support people, and help them do what they do in a. In the best way possible, in healthy way, in the healthiest way possible. but we also want to make sure that, we balance that with, all the people who are involved with the building industry, right?

including manufacturers, supply chains, things like that. We want [00:21:00] everyone to, to have a healthy environment to work in. And I think, In every case, that determination of what is ultimately the best choice might be different. And I think what you've laid out is how, you know, in certain cases, in certain applications, certain flooring types are you know, hard to beat.

I mean, they're just, they're just the best option for that application that we have right now. We've come a long way in our industry when it comes to PVC. And you know, in Metropolis, we published an article about this, um, about a year ago. where we've, as Shane laid out right at the start, right, eliminated chemicals of concern in PVC.

While we've, in parallel, I think also, developed alternatives. So what I'd love to do is kind of lay out for our listeners, how we navigate this situation and, all of your initial comments definitely help us do that. But maybe we can start by talking about some of those applications where, PBC is still. Just makes sense. Um, vinyl products still just makes [00:22:00] sense, and for good reason, whether it comes to performance or cost and an you have that. Shane, I don't know if you want to come into that or David, based on what you've heard from your teams, you know, where are places where that's still where you have the most options available and are the best fit for projects?

David: well I think we've, we've been seeing a lot of really good progress in product availability across a number of different applications. you know, fluorine has certainly come a long way, and I think there's a lot of new products just in the last year or two that.

That do pretty much all the things that we've seen, uh, you know, traditional PBC based flooring product do. so flooring I think is a really exciting area and, and we've been getting a lot of feedback on, on the performance. I think there may still be a little bit of a perception from some of our clients and a sort of attachment to using a more traditional vinyl based product.

Also maybe from our subcontractor's perspective as well. So there's a little [00:23:00] bit of, uh, an attachment to using some of those products and a reluctance to take a risk on a new product. one of the areas where we've seen a little bit of a challenge is, is on resilient base. you know, we, we already are starting with a smaller number of manufacturers that, that provide those products.

and sometimes there's a little bit of a limited colorway that can, can be used for them. We also see our, our contractors sometimes substitute them late in the process, and we are not aware that they've done that in some cases. And sometimes it's hard to track. They're definitely still, more cost competitive than some of the PVC alternatives.

So that's an area where maybe we have a little ways to go. and there's, there are plenty of PVC free wall covering options, and textiles. I think the areas where we probably. Still have a hard time competing are, are more in the, base building products that are either infrastructural like PVC piping or in roofing products where it's hard for [00:24:00] us to find a, a competitive alternative.

but in terms of sort of interior finishes, I think we've, we've come a long way and, and there's certainly a lot of. Competitive products on the market. And I think it's gonna take a little while for the industry to get comfortable with using them, as I mentioned before, and also for us to do that full evaluation to make sure that the alternatives are meeting some of the criteria that we like to see them meet across.

Not just from a, human health perspective, but from a whole lifecycle perspective, circularity and, from a social perspective.

Avi: I think an and Shane, before I let you come in here, that's a really important point that David brings up is. You know, we have, we have alternatives when it comes to FFNE, but more importantly, we have transparency, especially with manufacturers like Mannington, with flooring or, you know, even with textiles and wall coverings, we have plenty of folks who have documentation available and make that available to us.

And then base building products. Unfortunately we don't have the same [00:25:00] level of transparency available at the moment. And, Shane made a fine point about. American made PVC right at the start, and this might be a good time to provide context that, you know, American manufacturing in general is pretty well regulated.

and there are plenty of concerns, with, Polymers that are sourced from other places, especially when it comes to base building products where then we don't have transparency into those supply chains. So we have a lot to do in terms of due diligence here, um, in terms of, IM understanding the chemical impacts of our built environment.

But, Shane and then Ansy, I'd love for y'all to come in here too. Where are some of those spots where, you know, PBC continues to be a, a great solution?

Shane: think anywhere you need durability. And you need, you need the performance of a, of a low maintenance, attractive flooring product. This is, should always be a great option. Certainly, certainly American made products where you've got a level of confidence in the safety of the manufacturing of the [00:26:00] resins as well as the end product.

I think you should look to those for verticals like healthcare, education, institutional, where you are having building standards, changing flooring and other finishes every 10 or 15 years. You need something that's really gonna stand up over time, uh, maintain its appearance and also not be. Expensive to maintain requiring, you know, heavy polishing and, and things like that.

So I think that there are still a lot of really great, applications where it makes the most sense to look at vinyl.

Annzie: Yeah, I was gonna actually touch a little bit on what, what Shane talked about. A lot of it is also, facilities driven. You know how they're gonna maintain this flooring. you know, yes, there all are alternatives out there. but a lot of these larger healthcare systems, they don't wanna be the Guinea pig to try a new type of flooring.

You know, it took them 10 years to figure out how to [00:27:00] maintain. This, you know, luxury vinyl tile that they have. they see it, you know, it's been installed for eight years and it still looks great, so why would they want to go to something different? you know, they, and, and creating standards, um, a lot of them do have that where they've built relationships with manufacturers for, for pricing so that it can work into the budget.

because, at the end of the day, during construction and ca when. Value engineering items come up. interiors is always the first to get hit and I, you know, I always joke, I'm like, I'm not gonna be able to save you $3 million by changing out this rubber flooring to an LVT. so that's, I think Shane's got something to speak to that I.

Shane: Well, I, I think that you're making a really good point, and that is that we have seen this product perform over decades, and while the way it has been made over time has certainly gotten better, has certainly become more responsible, has certainly become safer. [00:28:00] The product has always been a high performer.

You know, it's always been at a great price point. It's always been flexible. And so when we look at the PVC free alternatives that are in the market today, including ours, we're, I'm gonna put us right there in bed with everybody else, very few, if any of those have lived through their very first warranty period.

So we don't know what they're gonna do over 20 or 30 years, in service, in a particular built environment. You know, and we are a DC in healthcare, uh, non-vital products breaking down under UVC light, which is just, it is so tough on the non vinyls. You're also seeing the infection protocols begin to physically degrade the products because they can't stand the chemical cleaning rigor that's required for infection management or prevention.

So there's a lot to learn about how these new products. [00:29:00] All perform over time in all of these conditions where we already have something with a proven track record.

Avi: I agree with you, Shane, but all at the same time, I think it is important that those products continue to be tested and continue to be implemented in projects so that. We do start to gather that data and we do have the motivation to improve them because, you know, we do want those alternatives, to become viable as well.

and you know, I think I. As you mentioned for, you know, a variety of reasons, many organizations, are beginning to make the determination that maybe they don't want to use PVC on their projects. PVC is still listed, on the red list, by the Living Future Institute. you know, there's a class-based avoidance strategy that many big, you know, property owners are using, not on the healthcare side, where certainly, you know, it would not be viable, but in other sectors.

And so having all alternatives developed, I think, to the best extent possible, seems to be the way forward. And so I'm, [00:30:00] glad to hear about those challenges that we're facing with PBC alternatives too. It feels like, you know, great, there's some challenges for us to work on. where do y'all see promise with some of these alternatives?

And where do you, if you want to add something to what Shane said, where do you see the challenges with some of the PVC alternative products that we've been seeing? you know, whether it's. Entirely going to a, I don't know, a totally different flooring system or whether it's about, you know, resilient flooring that's, that has a PC free chemistry.

Where are some of the opportunities and where are some things where we still have challenges?

David: you know, I mentioned flooring before. I think that there's seems to be a lot of promise in flooring. I know our design teams are very excited about some of the alternative, uh, PVC products that they've seen. you know, in terms of. Passing the durability tests. You know, they may not have the, the longevity in installed on a project to be able to, to prove out to a client at this point.

[00:31:00] But in terms of passing some of the initial performance testing it, it appears that we have products that are, they're gonna work in a commercial setting. and then in terms of meeting the aesthetics, you know, our design teams are very excited about some of the solutions and feel like they have good, good options that they can use on, on projects. I think some of the, some of the challenges are equally around transparency. I know Avi mentioned, you know, transparency. We, we do have good transparency. I, I still think that there are a number of manufacturers that are making PVC free claims, but then they're still not able to validate them, or they're not following through with the level of transparency that we'd like to see.

So we can understand better about what these PVC free alternatives are. And I think one of the most important things that we, we want to be advocating for, you know, as a firm with Global Impact, is that we're promoting products that have potential for real circularity. and so it, you know, it's, it's great that there are PVC [00:32:00] free alternatives, even with the progress that's been made, that Shane mentioned.

But I, I think one of the really important things is that we wanna encourage manufacturers to be creating products that can be taken back, post-consumer and, reconstitute into new, new products and, and not just have a take prac program and name, but actually have one that can be used in practice. And I think we still, we're, we're starting to see some progress and there's a few products out there that do that.

And we, we certainly wanna support that and applaud and encourage more innovation in that area.

Avi: Annie, any place where non PVC alternatives are still? Working for you or where you think they have potential or where you think they have challenges?

Annzie: I think that, again, the. Non PVC products for a lot of my clients, [00:33:00] scare them a little bit just because they're not familiar with them. I also do a lot of work in the rural communities, and sometimes the subcontractors are limited. and so they really have a heavy hand in, What's being used? you know, David earlier talked about the, the ca process and when submittals come in and, you know, I feel like every time I try to use a, a new product and I get very excited about it, I get just to that submittal process and then it, it's yanked, you know, something else more familiar, comes in.

but you know, there's still, I think there's still some great. Vinyl options. like I said, I think that there's great, LVTs, um, sheet vinyls that still make a great project and a great. Safe space. so I think, but I'm, I'm excited to hear Shane say that Mannington is continuing to look into these, alternatives.

they produce a great product. Um, I think they will continue to do so. [00:34:00] so I'm excited to see what, what other alternative products they have in the future.

Avi: This is a situation where, as we've been saying, you know, it's almost like we, we have to, we have to make every option the best thing it can be. right. Until, you know, we change practices or, um, we change operations. I mean, you know, healthcare spaces are not going to. Switch over, to a different cleaning regimen tomorrow, we are not going to see, the demands on performance change anytime soon.

so we need to take a pragmatic approach here, right? But ultimately though, our goal is, is spaces that do good, that don't do harm right as far as we can. And that's a very high ideal. I know I said that really simply, but it's like, you know, it's, it's a lifetime's work for all of us. so what can we do a little bit better?

What can we do a little bit better, whether it's in manufacturing, whether it's in policy or standards, in design, in [00:35:00] specification, To do better with the PVC products we have as well as the PVC alternative. So if you had to pick, you know, one or two things that we should be working on right now, what would those be?

Annzie: I think, educate, just, you know, talking to the manufacturers, talking to the users, really thinking through and understanding what. Our options are, um, and why we're making the decisions we're making. so, you know, I really appreciate the sales executives that come in, you know, and inform me about their products so that I could take that information back to the client, and make sure it's an applied in, in the best way, and that the client hears that, you know, whether it's the users, whether it's facilities, whomever.

I think that that is just continuing on with the education.

David: I would certainly second that. I think, one of the main goals of. Introducing GPS at a firm like Gensler was to send a market signal [00:36:00] for the type of products that we'd like to be using, with all of the attributes that we would like to see and that our clients would like to see. And so it's really important for us to continue to request that we have products that meet those attributes, and that includes, you know, class-based avoidance.

for certain ingredients. And so for us, that's, that's really important. And I know it's say even more than that. It's really important that we're aligned with other AE firms to make the same request for transparency. So we're not confusing Shane every time he gets a request for a new product.

And it's slightly different by a few, uh, attributes. So that's why it's really important that we look to have a, a common framework and a common material request. And, you know, the organization like Mindful Materials, or the common Materials framework is really important to, to lean on, to make sure that the, requests and the attributes that [00:37:00] we're asking for are, are consistent across the industry and easy to understand.

Then as we do this work, we're also, you know, it's really important that we continue to educate ourselves, so that we understand how to evaluate options when they come in, how we have better, smarter conversations in between manufacturers and, and designers and contractors. And the last piece I would mention and that I mentioned before, and just to emphasize, is that we also really wanna push for circularity in the industry so that we have products that are not used once and then have to go to landfill. Some of the projects we work on, you know, only have a, a, a lifetime or lifespan of, of three to five years. And so those products, no matter how good they are and how durable they are, they might not last for very long and end up in a landfill. And so it's really important, to make sure that we, we have products that not only meet these requirements and that are good for human health and good for the occupants of the space, but that It can be used and reused over [00:38:00] time and reconstituted.

Avi: Shane, do you wanna comment on that?

Shane: Yeah, I think that honest dialogue, honest communication, collaboration are really what's going to be key. I. In order for all of us to move towards this circular world where we really can make the most out of these amazing molecules that, that we're able to turn into products. And I think that there is such an amazing learning curve that we all need to undertake together with a little bit of humility.

I often joke with designers about keep the pressure up, keep demanding. Better products, keep demanding better transparency, keep demanding recyclability. And the flip to that is it's really hard to recycle a product. Any product right now, the infrastructure in the United States just isn't there. It doesn't exist.

We're subsidizing [00:39:00] it in California where it's starting to make gains, but it's a very vulnerable industry. And so we've got to figure out better ways to support that end of life scenario as manufacturers and designers and users. I think we need to have honest dialogue about you're avoiding this class of chemicals.

But you're using this class of chemicals. You know, as we try to avoid the use of PVC, we're using products that are 99% petroleum. And so how do we move away from fossil fuels altogether? You know, that's something that will take major undertaking an innovation by everybody involved to get us there. And I think that together collaborating and moving just one step at a time.

We will be able to get there, um, from the manufacturer side, from the designer side, from the end user side.

Avi: Absolutely. I think I just wanna take a moment to appreciate all three [00:40:00] of you at your organizations demonstrating a really measured and, you know, Pragmatic approach to this materials transformation in the built environment. I think, Shane, I want to echo you there. You know, our goal is we want to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, but we also want to, eliminate waste.

And I think David, I'll pull you in on that, circularity has to be part of this, this conversation. and so. Different segments of the market are going to move differently on this. and different project typologies and different clients are going to move differently on this. we want to take a measured approach so that we're not leaving anybody out in the cold.

but at the same time, you know, we want to make sure that we're aligned on our goals. And this has been a. Great conversation with all of you. It gives me a lot of hope because it feels like sane minds are at work. and we're developing multiple pathways, right? And I think that's the important thing, so that anybody who wants to set on this journey has a pathway that they can [00:41:00] take, ultimately towards eliminating waste.

Reducing our alliance on fossil fuels. Those are, those are our kind of north stars here. And I think the more we can do towards that, the better while we continue to make spaces that are functional, healthy, and reliable. and so thank you so much all of you for this conversation today. I really appreciate it.

and. I hope to, engage in many more such conversations in our industry about how we can take a pragmatic approach to materials in the built environment. Thank you. I appreciate this.

Annzie: Thank you.

Avi: I. Deep Green is produced by the Surround Podcast Network. This episode was sponsored by Mannington Commercial. It was produced and edited by Rob Schulte, with support from Rachel Santo and Lauren Volcker. We've been talking to the biggest experts on sustainable architecture and design all this season, and a new episode drops every month.

So [00:42:00] catch the next episode of Deep Green in a few weeks wherever you get your podcasts.