People and Perspectives | A Celebration of Women in Architecture and Design

Tiffany:

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Welcome everyone. We’re excited to kick off an episode of the Design Board today. The Design Board is a podcast by UpSpring that focuses on design, development and everything in between. We host innovators in our industry, and explore topics that support your growth in every way.

March is Women’s History Month and today we are going to be talking about and celebrating women within the architecture and design industry. Stacey Shoemaker Rauen is a senior vice president of the design group at Emerald, a leading events and media company. There she oversees multiple brands in the hospitality, commercial and residential design spheres, including Hospitality Design Magazine, and HD Expo and Conference, ICFF, Boutique Design Magazine and BDNY, and Ed Spaces.

Shoemaker Rauen is a well-respected, and talented editor and writer, and also editor-in-chief of Hospitality Design Magazine, the leading publication for the industry. Shoemaker Rauen, who has been with the company for 22 years is a noted speaker at industry events and an avid tracker of trends, places, projects and people. She has been quoted in various respected media outlets, including CNBC, and the Washington Post.

We also have with us today Margaret McMahon. Margaret Leads and manages Wimberly Interiors, with her 30 years in the design industry, producing an impressive portfolio of projects, and an equally impressive list of clients. Under her leadership, Wimberly Interiors has launched studios in New York, Dubai, Shanghai, and Los Angeles.

Prior to joining WATG, McMahon was managing director of Wilson Associates’ New York office, and former president of the Network of Executive Women in Hospitalities, NEWH New York Chapter. Stacy and Margaret, we’re so happy to have you today. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Thanks for having us.

Tiffany:

Well, let’s dive right in. I’d love to start by hearing your perspective on what being a woman in the architecture and design industry means to you.

Margaret McMahon:

It’s really pretty interesting. People are like, “What’s it like being a woman in design and architecture? The industry must be… That glass ceiling, and everything else.” I was very, very fortunate that I worked for a very well known, established firm owned by [inaudible]. So, I never felt any disadvantages. I didn’t feel any… I felt full support for what it was that I do. And then I joined an architecture firm, and boy oh boy, it is different talking to your boss who’s a woman, as opposed to your boss who is a man. And that’s when I realized that there really is a difference. Most definitely. So, for the majority of my career, it was easygoing. It still is. But, you communicate [inaudible]. Stacy, what about you?

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah, I mean, I’m design and architecture adjacent, I guess, at Hospitality Design, so I’m technically media. But I think what’s been interesting for me in the last two plus decades that I’ve been writing about the industry, and in the industry, is that there are a lot of women in the industry. It’s just there’s not a lot of women at the top in the industry.

Especially I think my first very eye-opening experience was the first time I went to ALIS, which is the America’s Lodging Investment Summit, whatever, 15, 16 years ago, maybe even longer than that. I think it was like 2004, or 2003. Anyhow, and I was one of the only women in that room, and it was all men, and they were the ones making the deals, and in charge of the money, and they were the clients.

And after that I always made sure that I wore something very colorful to those conferences, to stick out, and almost as just a gesture to make notice. But I think the interesting thing, talking to a lot of women over the years, is just sometimes just not making it… How do I say this correctly without pissing anyone off? But not making yourself known as a woman, and just being a good… Having an important view, a strong voice, and talk with distinction, and with knowledge, and then erase the fact that you’re a woman, and just be a player in the room. But I know that’s easier said than done.

Margaret McMahon:

Well, I think [inaudible] now, so I worked for a woman named Trisha Wilson, and all of her real mentors, and people coming up in the industry, and really, her competition was all men. It was Michael Bedner, it was all those people. So she was always in a room with men. And quite honestly when we presented, I was typically the only woman in the room.

But what was amazing about Trisha, and Stacy, I think that this is really interesting what you bring up, and listen, I’m just going to say it, because I’m just like, “Let it rip.” It’s very true about, it is how you project yourself. Trisha always said, and we’re still best friends, she’s like a sister. She said, “I never put myself in a position where it could become an issue.”

She’d be in… We all travel, in hotels, we all traveled together. She said, “I just never put myself in a situation like that.” When you say that, you don’t want to be gender invisible, but there’s certainly people within our industry who use that. They do. And then there are other people that, you’re absolutely right Stacy, don’t create a problem where there isn’t one, and don’t subtly say… I don’t have men walking up to me and saying, “I’m a man and I’m a developer, I’m a woman and I’m a designer.” We’re all on an equal footing, and it’s only issue if you create one, that’s my feeling.

Tiffany:

Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, it’s all about perspective. I think sometimes being the only woman in the room, if thought about the right way, could be an advantage. Wearing that colorful shirt to bring attention to yourself, so that you use that as a platform to show that a different point of view is actually a good one, and help… And using that to push boundaries. Which really brings me to that next question for you all. Men have traditionally dominated the interior design and architecture industries, as we’ve discussed. As more women have entered the field, how can they push boundaries, and be advocates for themselves?

Margaret McMahon:

I think it’s really very, very simple. Be prepared, know your craft, and once you’re taken seriously, the whole gender thing just disappears. But you’ve got to be prepared, you’ve got to be professional, and you’ve got to be ready, just like everybody else in the room is.

And that’s where you… I don’t think you automatically deserve respect. It’s earned, and you look at it, that you’re not at a disadvantaged role, on equal footing, and as long as you go in there, and you do the job that you’re supposed to do, I think that that pushes boundaries. At WATG, where I was on an interview this morning with someone, and I said, “You do realize that all of the regions, and all of the managing directors are women in WATG.”

I personally think that the world would be a much better place if it was run by women. And I really do think that, because I think we can communicate on a different level. I think that we have an emotional intelligence that is really needed, especially in this day and age, and I think that we have different tools in our toolbox.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah, I remember, I think I told you this story once Margaret, I think I was in high school and my mom handed me a book, Emotional Intelligence and How to Deal With it. But she is like, “Read this, figure this out, because this is your greatest asset, and the one that holds you back the most.” And how you learn to use that in business, and in life, I think, to Margaret’s point, especially today more than ever, emotional intelligence is really important, and especially in design, especially in creating experience, and memories, and all the things that hopefully design, and architecture does, and especially coming out of what we’ve come out of, what people are looking for even more.

So, to Margaret’s point, knowing your craft, knowing your tools, knowing your strengths, and knowing your weaknesses. Know when to speak, and when not to speak. Just know you. Speaking all the time is not a good thing. Speaking at the right times, with the right answers, that’s how you gain respect.

And I think too, a lot of people talk about, “What would you tell your younger self?” Or, “What would you tell somebody coming up in this industry?” And I always say, “Go take, not a debate, but a speaking course. Know how to speak in front of others, know how to present, know how to be able… Because you get all the great ideas in the world, if you don’t know how to communicate those effectively, they’re never going to get through the door, nor are you ever going to gain the respect from anyone across the table from you, man, woman, or whoever it may be.”

So, I think that is really important. And look, I didn’t mean to not portray that it’s hard being a woman in any industry, but I think just being able to not point it out there, like I did that at the lodging conferences, and the investment conferences, wearing color just because I wanted to show that there should be more women here. There should be more color, there should be more conversations, and differing opinions, because that… What Margaret says, it adds… The more different voices you have across the board, the better your design is going to be, the better your project is going to be, the better our magazine is going to be. Right? So, I think just being open to that.

And the other thing too, I think it’s women promoting women. I love hearing Margaret, that you have women in leading positions, because I think too, yes, it should be the best candidate. Yes, it should be the right person. But I think also women picking women up, and bringing them with them… I’ve told this to Margaret before, but she’s been a huge inspiration to me throughout my entire career, and has been the most support that I could ever have asked for. I didn’t have direct mentors. I had Michael, my old editor-in-chief, but beyond that, I looked out into the industry for people to learn from, and understand. I think just being able to even indirectly influence somebody is a big thing, and I know that’s very important to you too, Margaret.

Margaret McMahon:

Yeah, and listen, I’d mention mentors are just so important, because when I started working I kind of joked around that I was going to be a… I was a poly sci major, I was going to be a lawyer, my father was a doctor, and he was like, “Over my dead body is my daughter going to be a lawyer.”

So I was sort of foundering, and I happened to just purely by chance end up working for this woman Trisha Wilson, and I realized my first mentor was definitely my mother. I didn’t realize it until after she passed away, but boy, to look up, and realize, and soak all that in.

But Trisha Wilson saw something in me that I didn’t see in myself, and I owe my career to her. And then also Ann Sacks. Ann Sacks is a woman who has reconnected probably 15 years ago, the founder of the Ann Sacks tile. Just to have that voice, or that person to be able to speak with. So, for me, I had such great examples, that that’s what I learned.

And it also goes into, if you want to be a really great mentor, there can be no ego, and mentorship is based solely on trust, as far as I’m concerned. And listen, we all know, and you may cut this [inaudible], I don’t know, but we all know, we can see it a mile away, women who do not like other women, or support other women. You can see them coming

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Feel them.

Margaret McMahon:

Oh yeah, yeah, you can. And you do run into that, and we can be our own worst enemies. And it’s about trust, and it’s about leaving your ego at the door, and it’s also about having confidence to share. No one’s going to take anything away from you. The more that you share with people, the much better we all become. That’s my take.

Tiffany:

Oh, for sure. In every way. Just speaking to mentorship a bit more, how do you thoughtfully cultivate a culture of mentorship within an organization? How do you prioritize that? Stacy, with you in media, I mean, know differing industries that run adjacent to one another, and then Margaret, you at WATG, sort of how do you cultivate? Because for us as a business owner here at UpSpring, we’re a majority women at our firm, and culture is the cornerstone of everything that we do, and that that is just such an easy word to throw around. But, really being authentic about cultivating that culture, where we are building up one another, where it isn’t necessarily a competitive environment, but one where we kind of hold hands and rise together. How do you all do that in your respective environments?

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I mean, I think, look, we have a pretty female heavy team. I’m just thinking of everyone. I mean, we do have Will, one of our editors is a Amanda, just strictly editorial right now. It’s mostly women. And I think what I try to do is just be thoughtful. Just be… Create an atmosphere that people want to be a part of, that they like to come to work, that, I mean obviously we have deadlines, and we have a lot of work to do, but make it fun, and engaging, and give them room to breathe, and actually be who they need to be.

Which isn’t… There’s no science to it. Everyone has different needs, and wants, and desires. And I think I’ve talked a lot about it after COVID, but I went from managing it… I think COVID did something great for me as a leader. I went from managing a team to managing individuals, and realizing that everyone was coming from a different place, which I knew before, but I think just during COVID, having one-on-ones, talking to people, making sure they’re okay, bringing the group together when we couldn’t bring them together digitally.

And just really starting to think about it that way, and just, I think it’s just we do every quarter we do something together. We do outings, we rotate perks, if there’s a press trip or not, so everyone gets to experience it. When we have editorial meetings, I know I’m not the only one that knows all the answers. I’m like, I am a very bottom up, that whatever, whoever has an idea, that’s great. The more ideas the better. Throw it out on the table. I ask people, “I don’t need to do this. Who wants to take this on? Or who wants to take lead, and I can help you?”

I want people to be able to find their areas of interest. And if there are two that do it, figuring out a solution of who could do part of it, and who could do another part, or how could you help each other.

I think it’s also just hiring good people. A lot of people have the same talents, but also really just hiring people that A, want to be all in, because a lot of this in design, and in media all in. I mean, I still stuff bags. I’m still greeting people 21 years later. Still, it is all hands on deck. I’m there for deadlines, I’m helping closing pages. And I think they’d see that in me, and see that there is no ego, there is no… This is just us trying to do the best we can.

And then I do have a sign on my desk that says, “KISS, keep it simple, stupid.” Because sometimes I think we get so… You can change a to the a thousand times in media, and who’s actually realizing it? What’s the bigger picture? What are we trying to do? We’re not curing cancer. We are trying to create really great content, and events to bring this community together, but let’s take a step back, and breathe, and not be so hard on ourselves, because there’s plenty of other stuff out there that’s hard. So, let’s make this a safe space, a fun space, but a place where you come to work, and you do really great things.

Margaret McMahon:

Wow, that’s a tough one to follow. That’s [inaudible] goodness gracious. I think I agree with everything that Stacy said, and I also think it’s being super accessible to people.

Tiffany:

Yeah.

Margaret McMahon:

My mother taught me a couple things. So she said, “Always treat people how you want to be treated.” And it’s definitely bottom up for me, and it’s making sure that you’re accessible. You walk into a kitchen, you’re having lunch, and you’re asking people how they’re doing, or you’re walking in the morning, and you can read the room, and you can figure out to stop to say, “Are you okay?” And some will say, “I’m fine.” And then you realize that they’re not, and you’ve got to sit down and you’ve got to not necessarily drill into it, but you need to read whether they’re really open to talking about it.

And it does come down to culture. If you’re a supportive culture, or you’re working in the Hunger Games, and there are a couple of places that are like that, and you either run the other way, or you feed into it. And we as a company absolutely support one another, and what I love is, we’re all constantly calling one another. We do have a mentorship program, and people get to reach after whoever they want to and say, “Would you mind being my mentor?” And it’s about being accessible, and open and I think that’s important.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I totally agree, and I think it’s an open door policy, stop in whenever, call me whenever, I try to make sure my team knows, call me at any hour. If you need me, I’m here.

Margaret McMahon:

You have to be willing to work as hard as they do.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah.

Margaret McMahon:

I empty the dishwasher.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah.

Margaret McMahon:

I have to learn In Design, so I can put presentations together.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I can teach you.

Margaret McMahon:

And it’s… Stacy, [inaudible]. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. But it’s making sure that you can sit side by side, and your team knows that you can relate to what… Because if you suddenly lost relatability, they’re like, “What the hell does she know about what we’re doing, or how come we’re so stressed out?” And that goes back to having your finger on the pulse and knowing exactly what’s going on, and being in tune.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah, and I think too, just understanding everyone has something different going on at home. So like, something comes up with your child, let me know. Something comes up with family, just let me know. As long as you’re… You need to take time off to deal with something, or you’re going to work off and on because something’s happening, as long as you get your work done. Just being flexible, but also being considerate of the other team members, you don’t take advantage of that.

And I think too, we also celebrate the little things. Like I try to send a thank you note after ave every event and say, “Thank you all for your hard work,” the entire team, or after each issue, “Guys, it looks incredible.” Because it is daunting to get through something ,and then just let it go, and then move on to the next without closing that chapter.

And then the last thing too, is we celebrate the little things also in terms of birthdays. We all have a group text chain, and we all send little gifts. We just try to do something that… Like Alyssa just had a baby, and we all sent her a gift, and had a little mini shower for her at the office, and just those little family things that bring you closer together. And granted, we have a small editorial team, so our bigger team also tries to do other things at our events. But, just trying to be there for each other in a different way than just colleague to colleague.

Tiffany:

It’s definitely about celebrating the wins, and cheering each other on. It’s also being authentic, and showing up when someone’s in a ditch, and you need to help them climb out together. And sometimes rallying around each other in those moments of an angry or upset client, or a snafu, or I’m sure you know, a misspelled word, or headline, or someone steps on something, sometimes. And just making sure you’re rallying around that solution is big for us.

We’re also really thoughtful about cultivating a feedback culture, and we find that has really helped to open lines of communication between maybe unlikely pairs, or groups of people within the company. And then, above and beyond that, just as part of our review process, people really look to see how they’ve cultivated their teams, and how they’ve mentored others as a measure of their own success. So, really knowing that’s a priority for us has been something that we’ve seen has really developed culture, and change within our team, as well.

Stacy, you touched on family a tiny bit, so I’d love to pivot into work-life balance a little, if that’s even a… There are many design firms that have women at the helm, and that’s actually, in the 14 years UpSpring has been around, something we’ve seen that’s definitely changed more and more, which has been really exciting to witness, and see the evolution of how can women “have it all,” right? Do you all have anything that you’ve sort of seen in your careers, that have pointed to maybe being able to have that work-life balance? And maybe part of it is sort of having that team that sort of rallies around one another, and is sort of willing to fill in the blanks, and support each other in every way. But, I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I think I’m the worst person [inaudible] work life balance.

Margaret McMahon:

So not true. I was [inaudible], I’m like, “How does she have boys, go on vacation, run a magazine, have a great husband, how is she doing all of this?” So you’re my hero. I’m always texting her saying, “How of the world do you do this?” So you’re crazy.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I will say that I used to try to be perfect. This is what I want to say. I used to try to be perfect, and then I just leaned into the crazy, right? I just realized that I’m not going to be 100% perfect at everything that I do, and it is a lesson to kind of realize that you can do this, but you can’t do everything 100%.

So, to Margaret’s point, I have an amazing husband, who is super supportive, and very involved. I have a nanny who helps me with everything. I have back up babysitters, I have my parents. I have a team, besides my other team, that really, I do lean in for help. And I couldn’t do something the other day, I texted my mom when I got home, it showed up at my door. There’s a reason I moved to New Jersey after all these years in Brooklyn, is just to have that help.

And I think at the same time, I used to try to… When I only had one child, was try to be with him, and work, and do it all at the same time. And now I do, I shut off when I get home, and with my children, after they go to bed, I go back online if I need to, but I don’t try… I really try to compartmentalize. I can’t, at this age anymore, now that they’re older, and they have opinions, and need to do homework, and need to be shuffled from place to place, I really do. I mean, I might take a phone call to go pick them up, but as soon as they’re in the car, get off the phone, I’m with them until I drop them off. I might get on a phone call after that.

But I learned to just be in the moment with my children, because I realize how fast this is going, and I’m going to be mad at myself looking back in 10 years, when the first one leaves the house saying, “I missed all this time with him.” So, I’ve really tried to do that over the last three or four years, and it’s made me less of a guilty mom syndrome, having that guilty mom syndrome. And I know I work, and I think they respect me. They googled me once and they’re like, “Look mom, you’re famous.” I’m like, “No, no.”

But they see how hard I work. They see that it’s not just dad. When I come home, they ask me how my day was, what did I do, they see that I do something, and that we get to take these vacations because mom and dad work hard. And when mom and dad… We went away this last weekend, I worked on Friday, but then I turned off Saturday, Sunday, Monday.

Again, I just tried to compartmentalize. But I think in our industry, I’m sorry I’m rambling, so you can kill some of this now, but I think in our industry it’s hard. I think people love their job so much that it blurs a lot. So, I think it’s just finding those moments. It’s just finding that way to be able to do what you love. Because after 22 years for me, I wouldn’t be doing this, if I didn’t love this industry, and didn’t love what I did. That you have to really just lean in, lean into it that this is your life, and this is what you want to do, and you’re going to take the kids on a wild ride with you.

But look, they’ve gone to amazing places. They’ve stayed with me in different hotels. They see that travel is important. They see design different. Like we’re redoing our house now and they’re in with me, picking out tile, and they’re like, “This is what mommy does.” They also think I’m a designer, which I have to tell them I’m not. So, [inaudible] explain to them that I just write about these beautiful things.

But we walk into a hotel and they’re like, “Did your friend design this?” They’re starting to get it, and it’s exciting that I’m introducing them to a world that they might not have known without me working. And so, now I get excited to see them get excited about places, and Porter’s like, “I want to go there, I want to see that house.” I’m like, “Well, that’s a five star luxury hotel, but sure that could be your house someday too.”

I think it’s also part me, that I don’t… I respect stay-at-home moms 100%, and I had that moment. I think that’s a tougher job than going back to work, to be honest, and I had that moment when I was staring at the twins, I still get teary-eyed about it, and saying, “Do I stop? Do I just stay home with them?” Because it was really hard to walk away at that point. And I made that decision, and I decided I wasn’t done, that I still had more to do, and that I was a better mom going back to work, than staying home.

And it’s not an easy decision for anyone. And so, I think it’s just whatever makes sense for you, however you can do it, that’s what work-life balance is. And you can’t compare yourself to others, because there’s no one that’s in the same situation as you.

Tiffany:

Will you be my mentor? Because I have a six-year-old, four-year-old, and a one-year-old, and I’m slowly dying in the trenches. So, please Stacy, teach me how to turn the phone off. Margaret, anything on work-life balance?

Margaret McMahon:

Well, it’s so interesting, because my husband and I, we don’t have kids, but the same conversations go on. And I think for me, in my career, the hardest thing to learn was how to delegate.

Tiffany:

Yeah.

Margaret McMahon:

[inaudible], you hold it so close to you too.

Tiffany:

True.

Margaret McMahon:

And Trisha was great at that, saying, “You have to learn how to delegate. It’s not like if it doesn’t get done by you, it’s not perfect.” And that was a really big, important part for me, to learn to delegate, saying, doing it differently than I do it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s wrong. So, for me that was the first step in realizing that I could empower other people to do what I was doing, and really mentor them.

Now, I’m the person who also would, my husband’s like, “You’ve got your phone on. Who’s calling?” During COVID, it was really, really surprising for him. He’s like, “Who’s Leo that you’re talking to at four o’clock in the morning?” I’m like, “I talk to Leo in Shanghai at four o’clock in the morning.”

He’s like, “Oh.” So then he gets to know Leo, and I mean, I’ve gotten in my car, when I’m going to come to the country on the weekend, and said, “I’m going into town to go shopping.” And get on my phone, I sneak those calls. You do what you have to do.

But, I think for everyone, and especially you working moms, I have no idea how you do it. I’m managing my life with my husband, and our dogs, and everything else. And I think that’s really important in mentoring. I think that that’s amazing about this new generation. Because what tends to happen is you get old, you realize, “Geez, I could have had a much better balance a lot sooner, if I had done certain things.”

So, I think that this young generation coming up is really smart, in saying, “It’s a priority, an absolute priority.” It’s not wishful thinking. It’s the fact, that it’s what we want [inaudible]. So I find it… Listen, it’s tough on a practice, but we were all crazy in how these practices run. But, have I got it figured out yet? No, not 100%. But life events can mold your behavior.

It’s been almost a year for me, and my husband had a life event that I realized what’s really, really important, and my company has been incredibly supportive. And we just… Sometimes, as another thing my mother said, sometimes the toughest decisions in life are made for you. Like having to slow down, you just have a life event that makes you slow down. And for some of us slow learners, that has to happen. But, I’m working on it.

Tiffany:

You’re doing great.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Well, and I do your point of delegation, because I think that’s the hardest thing to do, for any leader, is to not give up, but pass on, and teach them how to do it, and how to do it. Let them do it their own way, right? Because your way isn’t the perfect way, or the only way. There’s other ways to look at it, but it is… I mean, I was still doing stuff that I did as an associate editor, and I was like, “Oh my god, I have to stop doing that.” You to have to let your team rise to the challenge, or fail to the challenge, and then help them along the way, which is-

Margaret McMahon:

There’s a saying, you need to lead from the back.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yep.

Margaret McMahon:

Instead of always standing in the front, you need to figure out how to walk to the back, and bring your team up front, and they really embrace it. And if you’ve been training them correctly, you’ve mentored them correctly, boy, they can do it a whole lot better than you can, and you hope they can do it a whole lot better.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah, that’s the hope. Right? And I think too, it’s also surrounding yourself with people that you respect, and that do things better, or differently than you, that you hire for different strengths, and weaknesses. I mean, I couldn’t do my job without my team, at all. Everyone brings a different point of view, and strength to the team, and I think collectively, you’re better as a whole than alone.

And the other thing too, I think I’m a workaholic doesn’t mean my team has to model me. So I’ve also been trying… We had a speaker at our Next Gen event last year that talked all about work-life balance. He was amazing. And one simple thing that he said that was a takeaway is, “If you start sending emails after hours, late at night, or early in the morning, people are going to feel like they have to respond. Then you start that culture.”

So I’ve been writing emails, like I do, at 10:30, 11:00 at night, because that’s when I clear out my inbox, and feel good about starting tomorrow, and it’s almost meditative for me. But I send them in the morning, so I schedule them for 8:30. So that way, yes, they’re going to get a bunch of emails starting in the morning, but at least it’s like… Or 8:30 or 9:00, at least it’s in… Or I’ll do one at 8:30, one at 9:00, one at 9:30, and I’m not perfect at it, but it’s like my goal for ’23 is not to continue that circle that I know I can kind of create.

Tiffany:

Right. There are so many of those little actionable things that amount to something, they sort of build, for sure. On the note of delegation, I always wonder, and maybe you all wise women can help me with this, I always wonder why it’s not a larger conversation, because delegation is a science. You can’t just assign things to people. There’s a method to the madness.

How do you delegate, but inspire? How do you delegate, but mentor? How do you delegate but still have someone feel like there’s buy-in? I feel like we have so many of those conversations in our reviews, and there are so many trainings for how to give feedback, and how to teach someone to write, and how to motivate someone. But, I feel like this delegation piece is a balance that even many of our leaders within the firm, and our directors sort of grapple with, because it really is this very fine dance.

Margaret McMahon:

I like to think of it more empowering people. You could think of delegating pass… It’s got a sort of negative connotation, passing on the shit you don’t want to do to somebody else. It’s like, “Here, I don’t want to do this anymore, so you’re going to do it.” But it’s really about powering, and passing on to… The other thing about delegation is it also has connotation, of you’re relinquishing control.

And Tiffany and Stacy, when we talk about that we’re workaholics, we’re type A personalities. Everything we do, it’s not just in the office. I mean my house right now, if you looked at it, Stacy, I can run a goddamned hospital out of my house. And I think about it, okay, it’s really you devote as much energy, I know you do, to your personal lives as you do to your work lives. That just happens to be what we’re talking. And I think that when you think about empowering people, it’s handing over, it’s not… It’s passing on something that they have earned the right to do, and they have trained up, and they are ready to take it on. It’s about passing things on, as opposed to shoving something to the side, and saying, “I don’t want to do it anymore.”

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I think that’s really important. I think it’s really important. Yeah. And look, I’m not perfect at it by any means, but I think it’s allowing them to choose your own adventure, find what they like to do, in a way, in a very kind of…

Tiffany:

It’s also positioning it as giving opportunity. Giving people opportunity, as opposed to passing things off. And I think when I delegate, there are things that need to get done. I’m not going to say it’s always roses, and sunshine, but I generally try my best to stop in that moment, and see what that person would find value in, or what I believe, even if they don’t see the value upfront, the value is for that person, before that becomes theirs. And I think that that pause, and that thoughtfulness is really felt in a team environment.

Margaret McMahon:

And it’s also giving them a stronger voice. It’s so important to do, because we deal directly with the clients, and what we want to make sure is that the client isn’t just identifying with one person. And there are a lot of unsung heroes in what we do, and what you want to make sure of is that they get the recognition that they deserve, as well. That’s super important.

And it’s just inclusion. It’s inclusion, and it’s trust, and it goes back to ego, too. You don’t have to be the loudest person. You don’t have to be the only person the client connects with, because that can become really daunting. And it’s giving credit… I’m a big believer, give credit where credit is due.

Tiffany:

Yep.

Margaret McMahon:

When people… We were on a presentation this morning, they’re like, “Margaret, great job.” I’m like, “Oh this has nothing to do with me. This is Leonna, who is on the call. Don’t even look at me. Leonna worked her magic here.” That is extremely important.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah, 100%. And I think it’s helping them evolve in their career, when you say opportunity, is like giving them that next… And again, yeah, there’s still stuff that you have to get done. We all do stuff we probably don’t want to do, but there are things we have to do. But allowing them to have the space to breathe a little bit, which is tough, especially in smaller organizations, it’s tough to find that way to get them something else. So, looking for those opportunities, even small, that give them something else to focus on, or try, which can enhance their growth in a different way.

Margaret McMahon:

And we also talk about, if I listen to one more podcast about failing, it’s good to fail. It’s okay to fail. The more you fail, the more you succeed. You do have to realize that you got to let them fail. You’ve got to let them fail, and can’t make a big deal of those failures. You just got to support them and say, “Okay, here’s a [inaudible] way of looking at it?”

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah.

Margaret McMahon:

And a lot of times, a designer will come to me and say, “I want to present this.” I’m like, “I’m not so sure about that.” And we have a conversation, they’re like, “Well, this is why I think we should present it.” I said, “Okay, and you run that up the flag pole. I advised you what I think those clients like. You run that up the flag pole, and let’s see where we get with that.” I said, “But I’m going to give you the look across the conference table.” And they said, “Oh, I know that look.” I’m like, “But let’s try it. Let’s try it.” And, do have to advise them, you want them to avoid it, but if they have really strong conviction, they’ve got to try it.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Well I think that’s my hardest thing is letting them fail, right? Because I am a mama bear, and I’m like, “No, I don’t…” “Well, but it seems like a good idea, so maybe it’s not.” Or like this. And ours is, even events, or stories, or whatever, and trying to guide them the other way. But at some… To your point, Tiffany, is giving them that safety net, and what Margaret said too, just not making that big of a deal of it, and be like, “Okay, so that didn’t work. Let’s try this way.”

Margaret McMahon:

And we probably have a bigger opportunity to course correct. Your business is very different. But I use the analogy, Stacy, you of course I don’t have kids so I love this analogy. Well, let them touch the stove and burn themselves. Trust me, they’ll never do it again. I’m like, “Oh my god. Brutal.” [inaudible] Let them stick their finger in the socket.

Tiffany:

When you have to stay up all night tending the wound, next time you’re going to stop them from touching the stove, Margaret.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yes. Anything you lose sleep over, anything you lose sleep over you think [inaudible].

Tiffany:

Yeah, I’m not good with little sleep. So, monsters, and the big bad wolf are pretty high up on my list as no-gos these days. Just one last question to round it out. Thank you again so much for your time. What advice do you have to offer young women entering the profession? How would you inspire the next generation of women designers?

Margaret McMahon:

Tiffany, I’m super old school. The way that I got to where I am is that nothing was off limits for me to do. Everyone knows the story about how Trisha Wilson, I had no problem, and years later, one of the principles of the company apologized to me. She’s like, “Could you out go out and get me Entenmann’s Donuts?” I’m like, “Yeah, no problem, no big deal.”

And I mentioned it in podcast, and Trisha will call me up. She’s like, “I’m so sorry about the Entenmann’s Donuts. I’m so sorry that it meant [inaudible].” But it was truly about, I’ll empty the trash, I’ll get donuts, I’ll go get food. I set up the library here in our studio, because the designers are so busy. It’s like, be open, don’t take it as a personal front that you’re no better than anyone else, and you all have to roll up your sleeves and participate. And for me, it’s really about not being precious. Just don’t be precious, and you go in, roll up your sleeves, and do what it takes.

Tiffany:

I love that, because it’s again, all about that perspective. You want to find opportunity. You want someone to ask you to go get Entenmann’s Donuts so that you can prove value. That is… At the end of the day, you want to find that space, so that you can be useful in whatever ways, because they build on each other over time, and then people start to see you as someone they can depend on, and someone who can execute, even if that is finding the perfect Entenmann’s Donuts, and bringing them forward. For sure. Stacy, how about you?

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

I think it’s interesting, because I was having this conversation the other day, it’s like the power of yes and the power of no, and I think for younger people, the power of yes is so important, and just saying yes to opportunities, yes to getting the donuts, yes to whatever opportunity is placed in front of them at their job.

And also to ask as many questions as possible. Don’t be afraid to ask the questions, because I think a lot of people are. You’re not going to sound stupid, and there’s no… I always say to my team too, there’s no stupid answer. It’s just, ask it, and see what happens. There’s always something else that follows behind it. So, that would be my advice, besides also knowing your business. Research it, be a student of it. Know the history of design. Know the history of architecture, know the different layers of hospitality. And if you don’t know it, if you don’t have a easy solution to go find it, then find a mentor to kind of know that, too.

Margaret McMahon:

I will add one more thing.

Tiffany:

Yep.

Margaret McMahon:

I’m a big believer, and this probably shouldn’t be the right business strategy, but I’m always under promise, under promise and over deliver.

Tiffany:

Over deliver. Yeah.

Margaret McMahon:

And I think that what people do in interviews, is that they over promise, and under deliver.

Tiffany:

Yep.

Margaret McMahon:

And I think that what happens is suddenly the trust erodes, you [inaudible] a really awful environment starts to develop, resentment starts to build. Don’t oversell yourself. Walk in, and own who you are, and know that you’re as great as you can be, and people will embrace that.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

Yeah. And I think that goes along too, so the power of yes for younger, and then when you asked earlier too, and I think this kind of rounds it out, that the power of no, today, and saying no to things that you just can’t take on is very important to work-life balance.

And so I think as you get older, you start to realize that… When I was younger I did anything. I stayed at the office until midnight. I came back in the next morning at 6:00 AM, and somehow I had a drink, and saw somebody in between the two. You did kind of everything. And now, for sanity, older, later in career, not saying yes to everything, and having the wherewithal to say, “No,” and that, to your point, Margaret, slowing down, it makes you kind of take a step back, and you can delegate to someone else, you just don’t have to do it. But I think when you’re young, say yes, say yes to everything. Try it. Be willing to take on whatever is thrown at you, because you’ll be better for it later on.

Tiffany:

Couldn’t agree more. And don’t forget, managers know people. So, it’s not just about learning the trade, and learning the craft. It’s all about learning how to get the most out of the people around you, and contribute the most to the people around you, to really create a well-rounded environment, and the trust to be able to lead eventually, in whatever it is you want to be leading. Thank you two again so much for your time. This was really a lot of fun for me, so thank you, and I know our listeners will really enjoy this. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen:

This was fun.

Margaret McMahon:

It was great.