Michael Luck Schneider, CEO, Volvox Labs

This transcription was made, in part, by an automated service. In some areas it may contain errors. 

Michael: [00:00:00] Our process, our physical space, our tool sets are all focused on minimizing abstraction and getting our team into the real medium of people, space, technology, and experience very early in the process.

Bobby: Welcome to Barriers to Entry, a Design Innovation podcast on the Surround podcast network. This is the show. Where we obsess over the not too distant future of the architecture, design, and creative industries, and the ideas, tools, technologies, and talent that will take us there. I'm Bobby Bonnet, chief Marketing and Revenue Officer at Sand Out Design Group, and as always, I'm joined by Digby co-founder Andrew Lane and Andrew.

We're recording at the end of February. Mm. I just got back from Las Vegas. I didn't see you at the sphere. I have a little

Andrew: app that pops up where my photos were, uh, where I was a year. And I, I, I was actually, uh, I neglected to message you yesterday 'cause it was the one year anniversary of our majestic date at the sphere.

[00:01:00] Um, what was happening in Vegas this year? Was there, did they have the subway convention in addition to, uh, kbi this year?

Bobby: There were, there was a, a financial convention in town. Um. The Backstreet Boys are playing sphere, but not right now. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I know also you wanted me to give a quick shout out to this Sphere's new merchandise website.

Uh, Andrew, I, I think you might be, uh, they're, they're not an official sponsor for the pod, but they might as well be. Um, but at, on the floor, at K Biz, I think last year you gave a talk on, you know, uh, uh, emerging technologies in the space. Yeah. Um, and now this year it's just a standard question. You know, there'll be a panel and somebody at some point will raise their, their hand and ask a designer.

What are you doing that's cutting edge that I can apply to my practice, and everybody has an answer now, whether it's, you know, a gig economy, hiring folks through the gig economy to help, you know, upgrade, you know, uh, technology systems to stuff on the, uh, more, uh, cutting edge side. Uh, but it was a good show.

I missed you though. I will say that

Andrew: I, I am, I always miss, uh, hanging out onto the bright lights of, of Vegas and our customer walked by the [00:02:00] Bellagio fountain. All these things, of course, but. Very oceans, two of us. But any case, sorry, that was a bad callback. Um, we are really blessed today, uh, to your point that innovation is kind of pervasive through everything and our guest today, uh, as someone who definitely experiences that on a daily basis.

So today on the pod, we're super thrilled to welcome Michael Lux Schneider, who's a true pioneer in the world of creative tech and immersive design. He is the CEO and Director of Media Architecture at Volvox Labs, which is a new media art studio that's redefining how we experience the intersection of art, architecture, and technology.

Sounds like a bullseye for this pod. Hmm. A former leader at both ESI and Gensler's creative technology teams. Michael draws on that experience as he and his team at Volvox are continuing to push the boundaries of what's possible in physical spaces. Uh, really excited to dive into his insights on collaboration, innovation, and what it really means to design for the.

Full human experience. Welcome to the podcast, [00:03:00] Michael.

Michael: Yeah. Excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Andrew: Yeah, super excited to have you on. I think we actually met when you were at, uh, Gensler when I was taking a, a, a tour in person when those rare moments to be in person happen. And, uh, we were fortunate enough to keep in touch, uh, while you made your transition.

So I was, uh, you know, when we started planning season three. Super excited to be able to put you forward to come on. 'cause I just know. Um, that you're right on the edge of all of the, all of the things we love to talk about here. So, um, just excited to, to dive in. And maybe to start, you can just tell us about the mission at Volvo, like when we spoke before, you refer to yourself as a new media art studio.

Um, so let's talk about what you're trying to do and how you speak about yourselves to clients and prospective partners. Sure. So

Michael: Vox Labs, we do consider ourselves our a new media art studio. We're inspired by nature. We design for spaces and we design for all of the senses. And that's, that's kind of our overarching mission are those aspects.

And so just to pull 'em [00:04:00] apart a little bit, and it's actually something that I very recently, like, it was a little aha moment. New media has been something people have said for decades. Um, and it was about a month ago. It was like, oh, new media. Means that you're actually creating a new medium. Mm. That's the, at the core of what those words mean.

And so, you know, I think both, many art studios and many design studios create content for existing media, right? Like they understand the components, they. After effects and they create beautiful art or design for that medium. And really what we do is we are made up of more artisans and crafts people who are really devoted to the ongoing evolution and growth of the medium.

We're defining what the. Violin is, and [00:05:00] we're figuring out what is, what can you play on that instrument right at the same time? So that's, I think really at the core of what makes us a new media art studio. You'll hear as we talk about this field, I think it's, it's a real differentiator. There are. Amazing artists and designers, but they're working with a very known set of, of tools and they just become experts in that.

Uh, and then there are, I think, a smaller subset who also understand how to keep evolving. The actual craft itself. And, and I think we fall into that, uh, into that subset.

Bobby: Is it an active effort to always be inventing, like, how do you ultimately navigate, you know, the fact that you need to be inventing and experimenting all the time, and then you have time constraints, and you have budgets, and you have partners expectations that you have to contend with.

What's that? Attention like, and that you can't go to the playbook and go to the expert, uh, in a [00:06:00] particular existing medium, but you're on the cutting edge at every moment in every project.

Michael: Yeah. I think there's two parts to that. One is the majority of the artists in the digital space are not designing for space.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: So, you know, as part of our core, it's like space is our canvas. If you use the existing medium. That's out there and the expertise that's associated with it. You are fighting the experience of physical space just by nature of what our task is. We have to be evolving the medium. Like we can't just hire a really great motion designer because the motion designer will be creating content.

To leave your physical space. And so I think we're in a position, we recognize that and therefore there's not a choice of like we can just hire the experts. That expertise doesn't really exist. What we do in response and how we can, I think, manage. [00:07:00] Risk and keep evolving. The medium is, it's really through our, our process.

Um, you know, we talk a lot at Vox about the idea of tinkering. Um, and you know, our overall core motto is, is observe, tinker, construct, um, and the tinker is, is the, is the big chunk of it. And you'll see even though we're, you know, 15 people, uh, here every day in. And we all have computers, um, but we all get into the actual making of it, and we try to minimize abstraction.

I think that's the, the key to our approach to things. You know, I think in this day and age, um, especially when people are designing for physical space, there's, there's quite a bit of abstraction. From what you're looking at at your screen to the actual experience of that space. And so our process, our physical space, our tool sets are [00:08:00] all focused on minimizing abstraction and getting our team into the real medium of.

People, space, technology and experience very early in the process.

Andrew: I'm really curious, Bobby kind of mentioned this with respect to the panels at K is that people are all asking, what are you doing to innovate right now? And I think AI probably was a bit of a catalyst to this, but you as someone who, uh, I mean maybe this is a bit of a crude explanation of it, but you sell innovation at your studio.

Have you noticed. A shift in the appetite for that with maybe with AI or with other factors where people are saying, we need to go and find a tinkerer. We need to go and bring innovation to a space, or else we're not trying hard enough or else we're not pushing far enough or else we're not being unique enough.

Like what's the kind of client mentality as you see it towards how people become attracted to you and why they choose to work with you.

Michael: I definitely feel like we've been able to do a pretty [00:09:00] good job of selling in a very different process than most of our clients are used to working through where it's, it's not, we've got an idea.

You send us some renderings of what it's gonna look like, we approve it, and then you guys build it. Which is kind of the traditional process, and it's much more of a, you know, we're gonna take your high level idea and we're gonna do a whole RD and proof of concept phase that's gonna be collaborative with you and allow us to actually figure out how to achieve your.

Goals within time, budget and physics. And we've gotten a lot of traction. We've had a lot of clients that are very open and excited to engage in that process, which is really, um, I think it's relatively new, but it's also. A lot about our space, our culture, and how we position ourselves, uh, in the world.

Bobby: You've talked about culture, the importance of, you know, an innovative mindset as [00:10:00] CEO, Andrew, and I love hearing from leaders of firms to understand, you know, how you're ultimately purveying what that North star is for the firm from a cultural standpoint. And if it's. Inherent upon you as the leader and and organizationally for your team to be creating new media.

And then if your clients are expecting innovation at every turn, how do you approach that as the leader of the firm to make sure that the 15 folks you're working alongside every day don't exhaust themselves, don't become complacent, or on the flip side, play within the boundaries of what's possible from, from a physics standpoint?

Michael: Yeah, I mean, culture is a really big part of how. Runs. I come from a background where it's a much, much bigger firm, a lot of process and tructure and uh, and I, I remember the first maybe three or four weeks I. Where's the process? Where's the process? And then it struck me that, um, you know, at at [00:11:00] vox instead of process, we have ritual and ritual is a much more human and culture focused approach to creating rhythm and cadence process very often.

It makes things as efficient and consistent as possible and, and this, our capitalist world loves predictability and consistency being. Don't thrive in predictability and consistency. And so really figuring out how you use, um, ritual and, uh, culture as a way to create a cadence or a rhythm that is more human, is a really big part of how we keep our team.

Engage in innovating. So I mean, a couple of examples. We have daily rituals, weekly rituals, monthly, quarterly rituals, and um, you know, our daily rituals are very much about reinforcing the senses. Uh, we have, [00:12:00] you know, we light incense. Every day we have shared, uh, music playlists. Um, we almost, the whole team eat, eats lunch together almost every day.

We go out, we wear a swag and we like walk around Brooklyn to the deli together and we're like this band of 15, you know, Vox tribe that are out on the streets and people look at us and, you know, if you think about it, we're getting. The smell and taste and touch and sound as like a daily reinforcement of us as human beings, as a group.

So we have things like that that happen. And then Vox has been around for about 12 years. We were one of the first adopters of touch designer, this software platform that's kind of at the core of a lot of creative technology. And, um, we just held our 11th annual touch designer meetup here in our studio.

We had over 200 people, uh, come to the [00:13:00] studio to give talks, to share knowledge. Uh, there some were students, some were professionals, some were artists. And then we also, we developed three really cool, unexpected canvases, theatrical moving heads, kinetic walls, LEDs, and we invited three. Work for these canvases.

Uh, and then we also created our own installation and we have those type of like community engagement events three or four times a year. And that's what keeps our team engaged and it's, it keeps them doing r and d. And when you invite all the people that you care about into your space and you create something for them and they come and they.

Dance and have fun and love it. You're gonna just keep growing and doing new stuff. So that's really at the core of, of how we keep our team innovative and engaged.[00:14:00]

Andrew: One of the things that, uh, was an important part of the intro that I read about you is this idea that you're designing for physical spaces, you're using technology, you're using new mediums to design for physical spaces and for people. Can you talk about how that sort of culture that you just described in that, that sort of, um, interdisciplinary collaboration almost as the baseline allows you to start to think about this bigger challenge of bringing it all together to really create something that's physical and meant for humans?

Michael: For me personally, and it, it's why I'm at Vox Labs. The thing that really excites me and drives me on the day-to-day is when there is a common cultural medium that people can engage with, uh, across society. That culture [00:15:00] is not a consumed. Experience, but is a shared and kind of co collaborated experience.

Um, so that's just like as a baseline, that's what drives me. That's what I want in my life is mm-hmm. I wanna be able to participate in a living culture with a larger community. Digital is an amazing tool for being able to do that. And I think, you know, the reason I've been in digital for. 20 plus years, 25 years is 'cause It is our current living cultural medium, but the actual medium itself requires you to leave your physical environment to participate in it, which is.

The total antithesis of what I want for my life. Mm-hmm. There's always been that tension and that's what I've always been striving in my whole career to figure out how to align those, those two aspects. Um, and so, you know, I think the [00:16:00] reason that vol. Is really such a unique space is that we use the digital tools and the digital processes, but it's very much focused on keeping people in their spaces and augmenting, enhancing.

Tuning that physical space, and it's through the process of remembering that we are human, that we are these sensory beings that can share space together, that allows us to. Create, create in that space and it's, it's so easy to slip back into your computer and become abstract again. Um, just 'cause all the tools are designed for it.

And so it, it is through these daily rituals, we make sure that people come down from our loft where we have our computers into our main floor at least four or five times a day. Like, get off your computers, we're gonna eat lunch, we're gonna like. [00:17:00] Something, a robot shows up and we have to like carry it in and we need to have six people help us carry it in.

Like there's constantly the get up and there's always that reinforcement of like, you're a human, we're in space. This is what we're designing for. Don't forget it. That's part of our, our culture and our, our rituals.

Andrew: It's a bit of an eat your own dog food kind of an environment in that way then.

Michael: Yeah, that's right.

And that's why we do events. I mean, that's, half of our team are DJs, VJs, performers, musicians, um, and you know, we're we, we make sure that. We're out there in, in our, in our space, but we're inviting our community in and we're staying engaged with them because that's that we're, we're designing spaces like this, and so we need to be making our space be true to what we believe in.

Bobby: I'm like really fanboying over your culture right now. I think Andrew is as well. [00:18:00] I, I'm curious just to like take a really quick detour. Where do you get inspiration for how the culture is developed? I'm sure there were some institutional ways in which full box was run before you arrived as CEO, but. The way in which it sounds as though you're operating your office is so much different from the ways in which 95% of companies I, I would imagine plus operate their office.

So where do you, where do you become inspired in terms of the ways in which you drive that cultural foundation at Vox? That the daily rituals that you've talked about, the ways in which folks do want to get up, do wanna congregate for lunch. I mean, where do you get that from?

Michael: The founder and creative director, Camille, he's always had great instinct.

I'd say the, you know, me coming on and taking this role, I don't know, 85% of it already existed. It just wasn't, you couldn't see it. It wasn't written down anywhere. There wasn't, there was a little less structure, um, a little, you know, and, you know, the, the actual studio. Finds [00:19:00] its roots in the electronic music festival space.

Uh, so Camille started, he and his partner started in, um, as attendees of electronic music festivals, and then he taught himself, uh, software to start creating installations and was doing projection mapping on trees and interactive little pavilions. And that turned into a business. And I think the one really interesting thing to think about electronic music is it's really only in the last maybe 10 or 15 years at most, that the DJ is actually on stage.

It's not traditionally a proscenium experience where you go and watch a performer. The DJ's in some corner, the speakers are loud, the lights are moving. There's lots of smells going on, and it's just about moving in between being a [00:20:00] participant, a performer, an observer, a creator. When you go there, you get to have this.

Roles. And that's, um, I think that's really core to the ethos of what Camille brought to the founding of this studio and really defines our culture here is like you to be here, you need to have this fluidity between. Creator, observer, actor. And so it's all, we're always pushing for, like, we're gonna do a nature retreat and like we're just gonna make stuff, you know, and then we're gonna dance in it, or we're gonna have a big cookoff and we're just gonna like eat.

We need people to be as multidimensional as as possible here.

Bobby: So you've got within your walls. This incredible culture. You just, you know, shared some of the inspiration for Camille and for the firm in terms of the multi-sensory experiences that led to the development of that culture. So now in an outward facing way, I, I'd love Michael if there's a particular project that comes to mind that [00:21:00] Vox is executed on that brought to life this idea of multisensory, immersive physical experience that kind of embodies what your goal is when you take on a client and a.

Michael: Agency for Prada come to us. Um, their experiential agency and their, their Prada was releasing a new fragrance for Fashion week in New York. Uh, and so they were trying to think about different ways of delivering, um, this new fragrance to this popup that they were developing. And so they came to us with probably seven or eight different, very high level ideas of how this could be.

Um, and they, they had an, an established budget. And, um, wanted to know what we thought, and we said, okay, well give us, let's take 10% of that budget and we're gonna do a two week proof of concept phase. We said, those two ideas, no, we, we have enough experience that your budget, time and physics doesn't really make [00:22:00] that possible.

But these other ones, we're gonna run those to our functioning proof of concept in the next two weeks. And then we'll look at that all together and decide which are the one or. Within a week and a half, we had a machine that could create a 12 to 14 inch soap bubble filled with, uh, fog and the cent could reach in pop and.

It was actually the idea that they thought would never be possible within time and budget. And in a week and a half we had a, a crude working version of it and we all went and, and looked and yeah, this is magic. Um, and then it took, you know, another four weeks to get it to a state of resolution and, and finish that it could actually be deployed.

And we ran it for five days. Um. Beautiful Prada green tubes that came down from the ceiling [00:23:00] and all illuminated, and, uh, the bubble just delivered this magical, uh, experience of, of getting, um, a new fragrance on your arm. So. I think it's a very physical, yeah.

Andrew: On that one. How many other, like you said you took 10% of the budget and there was a few that you threw up, but did you have two or three other working concepts that you also would've built?

And like, you don't need to dive into them, but is that kind of the process is you tried three or four things and then that was the one that was gonna make the magic so you went with it. That's right.

Michael: Yep. It made the magic, it hit the budget, it hit the time, it had the level of risk that everybody was comfortable with.

Um, and because concept. Like we could really have those conversations with the client in a really earnest way.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: We can look at it and say, you know, the bubble we have to work with, I don't know how the bubble's gonna drip.

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: We have to figure out how to exhaust it so that there's a real alignment on where.

There's still work to be done where there's risk and the actual [00:24:00] reality of that medium. So I think we had four different things that we developed to a, a functioning proof of concept level there.

Andrew: Really. Cool. And I interrupted you, you said you had another

Michael: When I was over working at Gensler. We collaborated with Vox.

Uh, so I was on client side at that time

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Michael: To develop a about 125 foot kinetic sculpture, permanent installation for a lobby of a, of a building, um, in, in Manhattan. Uh, and you know, Gensler had had developed kind of the high level form and massing of it,

do a design build relationship. You know, the very first thing that we did, um, because it's all built digitally and we have a full digital fabrication studio. We created three cardboard laser cut versions of this [00:25:00] module at three different scales. And then we went on site and we hung them up on the ceiling at the location that they might go to sit there with, um, the architect and with the end client understand what is the right size for this space?

What are actual viewing angles in this space? What's the. This form and the overall like human experience of this space, we were able to do that within two weeks of engaging in the project. Uh, because we have this rapid digital iterative process and it's just something that a rendering is never gonna be right.

Um, so we started, you know, flying this up in the spaces cardboard, and then there's a whole series of. Looking at different sort of acry metals, and again, no faster team build. It is to render it. Uh, and that's really how the process went. And it [00:26:00] turned into this like beautiful, um, triangle based kinetic ceiling.

It's a whole panel, 125 feet long of all these triangle flaps and they all move as you walk under it. So you have this kind of undulating ceiling with integrated lighting. Um, and it's a beautiful project. It's been up there for six years. It runs great. We work with a little Long Island manufacturer that designs linear actuators for satellites and spaceships.

So they're not cheap, but they don't die.

Andrew: Right?

Michael: And when you put kinetics in space, you need it to last forever. So yeah, it was a, it was a great process. Dutiful project.

Andrew: Those are two really cool examples. I think. Bobby, you're still thinking about the Cologne bubble though, aren't you?

Michael: I am, uh, yes. Well, we've now become the scent people.

It's really interesting. Uh, we're working on three more fragrance projects

Bobby: Yeah.

Michael: With smoke and [00:27:00] scent and it's, uh, it just has rolled into now a specialty that, that people come to us for.

Bobby: As you were telling the story, Michael, when I was walking through the convention center this past week, it is apparent and more memorable.

You know, and these aren't fragrance brands, obviously, but when brands think about branding themselves with scent as well. Yeah. When you walk into a space, it's, I, I don't think it's like an inherent, we need to include this along with the light package and the floor package. And the furniture package. No, folks don't normally think about scent, but when you walk into a space, it, it elevates it, it makes it more memorable.

It's probably not a bad place to be the scent guys for a minute. You know,

Michael: scent doesn't compete with being present. Mm-hmm. If anything, it reinforces. The, the being present in a physical space. Most digital visual competes with being present. But, you know, lighting, sound and scent are really about augmenting your physical presence.

That's where we do our best work. [00:28:00] That's where we create the most impact and really, um, engage with people on a, on a much deeper level.

Bobby: So you mentioned lighting, uh, and if I'm to just kind of pull on that thread a little bit, let's talk about LED and other emerging technologies that are causing, I would say, like positive creative disruption in the architecture and design industries. What excites you about this shift toward these opportunities?

From a design standpoint,

Michael: it's been in this weird wild west space for 15 years now, where it's not. Commoditize the level that, you know, you can buy your 40 inch, your 60 inch or your like, you know, 103 inch panel, um, which is like more traditional LCD or ED display. And so it's been a building block as opposed to a, a display for a long time, [00:29:00] which is really interesting.

A piece of architecture than a thing that you buy and put on your wall. It's also been what has made it difficult for it to actually enter into, uh, the common set of parts because most designers are good at specifying things. So if there's not a like. 103 inch thing. They're like, well, what do I need? I don't know what I need.

You know? And where if they say, yeah, I just need a hundred, three inch thing, put it on the wall. It becomes, uh, easier to just work into the, the design flow. There's a LED, it's been around for maybe five years, but it's just becoming a predictable process. It's called chip on board. And, you know, at a high level, it just means that instead of taking a little LED.

Soldering it to a board, they actually just print the LED straight onto the circuit board. Um, it becomes a much [00:30:00] cheaper, more efficient, um, and much higher resolution process. It's been really expensive and now is becoming really affordable. It's gonna drive us backwards to the place of being. Seven sizes you can choose from because if you buy it in those seven sizes, it will be so much cheaper.

That it'll be, you know, it's like, yeah, I can get the 103 for a hundred bucks. If I wanna do my own thing, it's gonna be a thousand bucks. And so it's gonna be interesting to see what happens in, in that market as that, uh, as that change happens over the next two or three years.

Andrew: How is it that you personally or you guys as a, as a firm or as a shop stay on top of the kind of evolution of a tech like you just described?

Or like, you know, what is evolving? How is a certain technology becoming more affordable or more malleable or whatever the, the opportunity might be?

Michael: Yeah, I mean, we, we do invest a good amount of time [00:31:00] and energy to. Keep relationships with, uh, the different manufacturers and, and invention innovators out there In the technology world, it is our medium.

You know, our team tends to be people who get really excited about. Innovation in their space, and it kind of defines the people here. They're into the medium, that's the thing is, and they wanna know what's going on in the medium. And so we go to shows, we have relationship, we forge relationships with different industry manufacturers and developers, and.

We make sure we, we stay engaged.

Andrew: What's the, the coolest show for someone who's like tangentially interested that we should, like, everyone hears about CES? Like is that the coolest show or is there like a better one that, you know, uh, Bobby and I should plan a data at? Uh, in the coming months,

Michael: when you're thinking about space in technology, there was the US or North American Infocom, which [00:32:00] is the commercial.

Goes between Las Vegas and Orlando. There's a international version of it that just happened in Barcelona that's called ISE, um, where, where I was at and, and speaking. For me, those are the, the most interesting in, in seeing what's going on there. And then some of the festivals, so, you know, whether it's, um, sonar or off or some of the.

New media art where you get to see some of the smaller studios are kind of exploring theatrical entertainment. Technology and, uh, live performance technology and music and creative technology and merging them. Um, there's some really lovely festivals there that could be inspirational.

Bobby: You mentioned, uh, with, you know, the proliferation of a new LED application technology that.

Makes things much cheaper. [00:33:00] But you also said we're, we're probably gonna take a step backwards from like a, an execution standpoint due to standard sizing versus custom solutions. I was just thinking as you were talking about the, the Prada bubble. One day, a parent taking their kid to the million bubble show in, in Manhattan, and then all of the bubbles pop and there's scent everywhere, and all of a sudden we've jumped the shark on a technology like that.

Or it's just become too proliferated. What's that like for your firm where you've been working on something that's felt proprietary and felt best in class and felt brand new, and all of a sudden it becomes commoditized? Is that something you deal with, or do you feel as though you're far enough ahead that your team gets a little tired of working with a particular technology before it gets to the point where it's saturated The market?

Michael: People don't come to us for what they know. I mean, part of it is driven, honestly. I. You know, 80% of our r and d is driven by our clients. Um, so you know, they're coming to us 'cause they wanna push the envelope.

Bobby: Right. They're not saying I wanna do that. They're saying, how do we do [00:34:00] this?

Andrew: That's right. Are you ever patenting any of these design innovations?

'cause I think Bobby wants to get in on your patent for the scent bubble from the sounds of it. If you are,

Michael: we should be, but that's not currently our model. It's complicated because we're also very much invested in our, in the creative tech community. We don't have the ethos of, of ownership. We share a lot of our code base with our community.

Um, so there's, we build tools for touch designer that get shared out. Um, so. It's balancing business and culture, um, and figuring out the right mix of those things so

Andrew: well, and it feels like we're very much coming back to another sort of, uh, renaissance of open source in the broader tech community, which is, you know, it's interesting the way we sort of open and close on a.

Oscillating basis, but it feels like we're back in an open stretch again. So I'm sure that, you know, those contributions are well received and they come back to you in positive ways, which is what that [00:35:00] structure is really meant to foster. So

Michael: if we need someone great that has some very specific specialty in a space, like we can get them because

Bobby: mm-hmm.

Michael: We we're, we've got those six degrees of separation with, with everybody because we're actively engaged in our, in our community.

Andrew: Bringing it back to like that core idea of like creative design, architectural functionality, what is the role that ultimately you hope to play? Like, I mean. The morbid way to say it is kind of what's on Volvo's, like eulogy in terms of the way that you'd like to be remembered for how you, how about legacy?

I'm in a dark place apparently right now. It's winter in Toronto. Um, yes. What would you like the legacy of Vox, uh, to be Michael?

Michael: I mean, we have some really big aspirations here. Uh, you know, I think from that perspective of developing a, a living common culture [00:36:00]for community, like, we believe that most of the kind of experiential things that are out there are, they're pretty.

Instead. Mm-hmm. They're, they're not living, evolving things that are part of, um, the community. There's something, you go, you pay your ticket, you take your pictures. It was really cool. It inspired some stuff and then you go home and it's really has very little relevance to your, to your everyday. And so, um, you know, kind of in the model of.

200 person touch designer, you know, creative technology meetups. You know, we're currently in our model, in our process, in our space. We have techno, we have our medium, we have our team, we have space, but we need to more and more engage in culture and, and so really thinking of us as being more of a cultural hub where we're innovating in that.

Cultural living medium is, is what we [00:37:00] would like to find ourselves in. It's a little abstract, I think, but um, we wanna be relevant to and engaged with our communities, both locally and and globally. So, I see, you know, in the future there's 20, uh, Vox lab studios around the world that are all community.

And creating an amazing place to, to belong to, to um, to, yeah, to be engaging in that conversation of culture. That's big aspiration.

Bobby: I love big aspirations. Um, and if there's a firm that would be exciting to watch that. That's, that's yours, Michael. At the end of each episode, we'd like to ask our guests if, um, you've got anything to plug or promote, whether it's related to the studio yourself.

The, the microphone is yours. I. All

Michael: right. Uh, what am I gonna plug here? Well, we've been doing a lot of stuff with big cka robotic arms. Um, we're kind [00:38:00] of, we're becoming the scent people, but we're also becoming the robotic arm people. Uh, we just did a really neat install for the NBA All Star with a basketball hoop on the end of a, a cka that our team choreographed.

It's a really cool medium. Just having a cka arm in your space as a human being is. It creates all sorts of provocations and engages you in space and technology in some great ways. So call us for Cka.

Bobby: That's the new, that'll be

Michael: the

Bobby: next T-shirt.

Michael: That's right. Um, and uh, and then I think the other thing to look out for is we're starting to develop a series of products for media architecture.

Um, so things that are really designed to integrate into your space. Are designed for space, but use technology are inspired by some of the structures of nature to bring and provide in your space, both visual and [00:39:00] audio. So that is on the six. Uh, look ahead. Cool. Um, so yeah, those are some fun plugs.

Andrew: Yeah, those are great.

And we'll put Cka arms in the show notes 'cause I'm sure people will be running out, uh, to get one for themselves too.

Michael: Oh yeah.

Andrew: I'm assuming that's one of the many heavy things you're carrying around in the space. Yes. So the, the other thing, um, we'd love to leave the audience with is, is there any advice or any resources, you know, we asked you about shows that inspire you, but is there any place where someone who's looking to build their innovation muscle or explore new technology or learn about new media, what should they check out?

What should they read? Where should they go?

Michael: You know, I'd say from an advice perspective, really under, well two things. Understand your levels of abstraction. Minimize them, um, which just current life and, and work is all about these levels of abstraction and it really [00:40:00] limits our ability to innovate. So, um, figure out how to work in tools that minimize abstraction.

And it kind of leads to, um, and, and I know you hear it so much, the idea of fail fast and fail fast makes a lot of sense in pure digital design of. That website that the button is in a stupid place, like move it.

Bobby: Mm-hmm.

Michael: But when you start designing for human experience and physical space, like think about how to fail fast in those spaces too.

And, you know, and, and it, it's connected to level abstraction. If you're abstracting things, you're limiting how quickly you can fail. That's

Bobby: right.

Michael: Uh, because you're staying abstract way too long until you're like, oh. The physics don't work.

Bobby: Right. We've lost the plot. Yeah, that's

Michael: right. So, um, yeah, those are two pieces of advice I'd say for anybody that is, is getting into this space.

Andrew: Well, Michael, it was great having you [00:41:00] on. Uh, I, I promised Bobby that it would be a fascinating conversation. I, I, I think we delivered. No kidding. Oh my gosh. Really inspiring Michael. Yeah. It's so cool to hear what you guys are, are into, uh, the, some of the new tech that you're, that you're working with and looking forward to kind of seeing how you come out on the other side with some of these products as well.

It seems like there's, um, some really cool things on the go. Um, also the good, good PSA for people roaming the streets of Brooklyn to look out for your. Maring Gang of Creative Technologists. Mm-hmm. Um, so public safety announcement there, um, also appreciated. But, uh, we really appreciate you joining us today and, uh, just looking forward to following along and, and seeing how, uh, seeing how you guys grow and evolve.

Bobby, you wanna read us out?

Bobby: Yeah. Uh, I will. Thank you again, Michael. And as always, we'd like to extend a big thank you to the Barriers to Entry Production team, our producer, Rob Schulte and everyone else back at the studio by Sandow Pod Cave. Barriers to Entry is part of the surround podcast network.

Make sure you go to surround podcasts.com. That's podcasts with an S. [00:42:00] Smash the follow button and join us next time as we continue to break down the barriers to entry.

Andrew: I was on an elevator this morning with a guy who smoked a cigarette and then sprayed cologne all over him, and in that 15 minutes we were talking about scent. It's all I could think about lasting memories.