Measuring What Matters in Product Design

This transcript was made, in part, by an automated service. In some cases it may contain errors.

Avi: [00:00:00] Welcome to Deep Green. I'm your host, Avi Rajagopal, the editor-in-chief of the Architecture and Interior Design Magazine. Metropolis, what makes a product more sustainable than others? This is a conundrum. All of us who are interested in the impact we make on the planet have to face. How do we pick the right couch, the right coffee machine, the right flooring, the right tiles, the right curtain wall system, so that we're helping people and the environment as much as possible. This is a question that Lisa Gronik, our guest today, has been grappling with.

Lisa is the US managing Director and Global Head of Sustainability and impact at the If F Design Awards, one of the largest awards programs for design in the world To pick this year's winners, for example, [00:01:00] 131 jurors evaluated nearly 11,000 entries from 66 nations, judging everything from appliances to automobiles, furnishings to buildings.

For the first time this year, sustainability accounted for one fifth of the score that every submission received. So how does an international awards program tasked with judging sustainability across design disciplines, diverse countries, and product categories? Do it. Here's Lisa Gronik. So Lisa, tell me a little bit about how you got involved with sustainability.

Lisa: I mean, the simple story is that I grew up in Los Angeles and even in the early and mid eighties, we were having crazy wildfires. I watched Malibu burn the first time, from our front yard. you know, we'd have days when we weren't allowed to do physical education classes because of the air [00:02:00] quality.

And then I spent my summers on a, island off the coast of Maine with no electricity, where we had to get rid of our own trash and carry our own groceries. And, with my grandparents and the respect for nature and the contradiction between what we were building and what. I really valued, I, I think, kind of establishing me very young, a sense of, of, of importance of taking care of the planet that we call home.

and then, you know, I study political science and really focus on identity politics, and kind of the injustice of history, and the importance of culture. and wrote a thesis on, you know. Self versus others. So I think, you know, focus more on the social side ended up in fashion somehow, which, you know, kind of bridged my love of fine art with this global world of branding and how you identify on the outside.

And after about eight and a half years in that industry, was really starting to get grossed out by [00:03:00] this lack of sustainability on the environmental side and decided to go back to grad school to do sustainability. unfortunately I graduated to the financial collapse of oh eight and that was not a topic at that point, you know, was sustainability, especially not in the luxury sector, which was completely, you know, pants on fire or dresses on fire, whatever you wanna say.

But I, I've ended up, as a result, not. As an expert, not on a sustainability track in my career, but then at every turn focused on these initiatives from within as a strategist, as, a change maker. and as someone looking to help companies with growth, asking the hard questions of how do you do this in a socially and environmentally responsible way whenever possible.

Avi: Yeah. And you've certainly been that change maker in your role now,

I.F design. one of the biggest global award programs for design, you had what, 11,000 entries this year. and this was also the first year thanks to your work, [00:04:00] that sustainability was a major factor in how the designs were judged.

So. Why did I.F design decide to double down on sustainability for this year's awards?

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, look, I wanna clarify one thing. This is not the first time that if F has incorporated sustainability factors into the during criteria. However, you are absolutely correct, Avi, that it is the first time that sustainability is a standalone criteria within the judging of the if F design award, which as you mentioned, gets 11,000 entries every year.

and I'll talk about the complexity of those entries and how you judge sustainability, later. I'm sure we'll get to that. The bottom line is. There are five during criteria, which are idea, form, function, classic design, crit, you know, pieces. Then you have differentiation, which incorporates a little bit more of, you know, the innovations, but also the commercial impact side.

you know, what markets, what audiences, you know, how is it different or [00:05:00] distinguished from competition and historically the fifth criteria, which is. 20% of the score equal to the other four has been impact. And the actual commercial impact was included with social and environmental factors up until the 2025 award, which is when, you know, we, I came in two years ago, to die of design award.

So at the end of the celebration basically of the 2023 IF design award, which was our 70th anniversary. And at that point, you know, we had had, for the first time that year, a few sustainability experts on the ground to support our jurors already for during this impact criteria on the social and environmental.

But it was, it was all it was. And they were kind of jumping in and, and weighing in and it was a little complicated. I. In 2024, after I'd built this sustainability working group, which we'll talk about, we can talk about, we then had, another group of experts on the ground to help our jurors. And it was, again, a little complicated but better.

And [00:06:00] people had a lot of feedback. The jurors were really excited, and that's when we started moving towards, okay, how do we not only support our jurors who. May not be experts in sustainability in their respective categories, but how do we also help our participants understand what matters in sustainability? To if F as a marker and hallmark of what is excellence in design at a global level in 2025 and going forward. And we're really on a journey towards 2030 to fully embed the social and environmental criteria into the primary during, and 2025 was the first award season where this was its standalone criteria.

With optional questions, certifications, et cetera, and we're just continuing to move forward. We just opened the 2026 applications and it's another step forward, so I'm happy to, to talk about it, but it is, it's really a meaningful opportunity that IF has given me to, to, to lead this work.

Avi: It's so. Are fantastic and so impactful that you're doing what you do. [00:07:00] I want to talk about how things are now for a moment because this question of how one judges designs, their environmental and social impact is not settled. I think, you know, and you see that at every level. You see that at, you know, at Metropolis we have a much smaller awards program that we call it Planet Positive Awards, where we do judge products.

But a very small subset and within one sector of the industry, which is, you know, interiors, furnishings, and architectural materials. and even there, you know, setting those decisions on what is the basis on which we're gonna judge these products is really complicated. And all the way down to, you know, if you are somebody, an architect or designer picking a material for a building or a homeowner picking out something for your home, It's the same kind of judgment you have to apply. You're looking at a lot of different, choices and if you care about environmental impact, you're trying to decide, what's making a better impact in the context of what I need? It's, it's a complicated decision. So I just want you to [00:08:00] outline for me,

Lisa: me

Avi: how was it incorporating the judging process this year?

Let's start there and then I'd love to jump into the working group.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And, and they're actually, they're Avi, they're totally linked. So I will, I will make my answers short so that we can, or as short as I'm capable of doing on a complicated topic and my ity, but. They are intimately linked because the sustainability working group are our external experts who we've assembled to help us figure out.

Exactly the answer to your question, and what I can say at the highest level is, you know, you've identified the challenge of being objective about a subject that A, is hyper complex, B is not. Even nationally, much less internationally aligned. I still can't believe that we don't have a, a adhered to definition of sustainability generally internationally across business or [00:09:00] industry.

So that's a whole like rabbit hole unto itself. If we have nine design disciplines with their subcategories totaling LA in 20 25, 82 categories, including the furnishings, including lighting, including building materials, including retail installments, including, you know, cars and sports plus ux, ui, and all the digital plus the architecture and interior architecture across discipline.

So to your point, it's highly complex. And I'm gonna leave there because then I think we, we dovetail into what then we determined was the most impact. And how do we jury, these diverse categories across geographies as well.

AD BREAK

Avi: So tell me about the working group. you know, how did you arrive on the process and what criteria did you use this year?

Lisa: So the working group is, a group [00:10:00] of, seven, soon to be eight external experts who have deep, deep expertise. We have someone on the digital side, and these are almost all designers, some are practitioners. We have, someone on the material science side, on the packaging side, on the luxury. which covers social and environmental across, she created one of the big, you know, uh, the Positive Luxury, the Leaping Bunny label, which is a, you know, uh, the Butterfly Mark label.

Um, she's quite extraordinary as well. We have the head of design and sustainability at one of the major consulting firms on this working group. We have. a journalist who has been the editor in chief at many big, tech publications, but who is now, um, running a, impact, media platform, fast growing, and we just have this incredible cross-section of people, as I said, seven going on, eight who have now been working with us, some [00:11:00] for almost, Over a year and a half, some for less time than that, all seven of whom were there at the final jury and highly involved and available to help our 131 jurors decide. of course, I don't know how I'm forgetting. we of course have someone from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, which is a nonprofit, based in the uk but with New York offices who I respect just beyond anything else for their work in circularity. which I think is a big component of design these days and how we're building it.

And so not only are they on the ground to help our jurors understand And make sense of what our participants have entered into the criteria and answering of the optional questions. But they've created with me these optional questions. And so for that sustainability criteria, we didn't just put a.

Blank box like you have for idea, form, function, or differentiation with some guiding texts. We have that. And then we had three, optional questions for each discipline. A couple of those [00:12:00] categories also had their own, like cars are very different than anything else. but we, you know, and in, in branding and communications discipline, there's physical versus digital, so there's some differentiated questions, but we worked together really, really profoundly, about this time last year, right before the 2025 application launched to figure out what are the highest impact areas by discipline or by category across social, environmental, and.

a lot of times people fi filling out these applications for awards aren't necessarily the designers nor even, you know, the sustain, certainly not the sustainability leaders. And so you don't wanna overwhelm because you don't wanna get a bunch of, you know, in either incorrect information or make it so onerous that people.

Don't wanna answer at all. And so we worked hard to figure out. And so for instance, you know, in product, we really asked the question like first and foremost, like what sustainable design strategies are incorporated into the design of this product? And then we don't talk about the R ladder of circularity because [00:13:00] that's a whole nother level, but we ask the questions and defined like, how about, you know.

Recyclability, repairability, resale, refurbishment, remanufacturing, you know, we kind of go through the re refusing, we go through the R ladder and you check any that or all that apply. Right? And then you're asking in about accessibility in architecture, of course it's, you know, what design decisions were made to prioritize lower energy consumption and reduce resource use during daily operations.

Not in the construction, but like where are the highest impact areas for. Each discipline and in cars, for instance, a different thing. and then it's like, you know, I come back to the architecture, you know, I'll use interior architecture for an example. And it's like, in what ways does your design, support and promote human health and wellbeing from construction through to end of life?

So these are like use of low toxic materials, low VOC, right? Low embodied carbon materials, materials with high recycled content. Like you're getting extra bonus [00:14:00] points, if you will, for answering these questions. But we're also trying to educate both our jurors and our participants along the way of like, what does this even mean?

What is sustainability? What is impact? And then just to round it out, we created this list of accreditations and certifications. Third party, That our participants can select from, and it's part of our terms and conditions that, you know, again, like intellectual property, we are not gonna double check that you have the intellectual property rights, but it's part of terms and conditions.

So if you're. Not telling the truth. There are serious repercussions if we find out. And so we're not asking for certifications, but if you check the box that you have iso, you know, 14 0 0 1 for instance, you should have that. and you know, we generally don't have any problems with this kind of thing at the level that people are competing in the IF Design award, but we created this.

List of accreditations, that, you know, again, is very complicated across 82 categories of design and, you know, over 70 countries of participation. [00:15:00] So we really wanted to break it down and this year we've taken yet another step and tried to align a little bit more by discipline as well as giving credit for, corporate or, or company level accreditation.

So things like 1% for the planet or certified B Corp or purpose. driven companies, et cetera. So, yeah, these are, these are some of the things that we, we've taken into consideration.

Avi: I love that, process and that structure, because. you are providing these really profound, as you said, questions and then you know, multiple choice responses that kind of break them down a little bit. And overall, the system recognizes that even within the same category or same area, there are multiple pathways to positive impact and there are multiple priorities that people can pick.

And that you know. It's important that one has picked the pathway and that you have a priority, but you know, ultimately you're not pitting priority against priority. And I think that like, just makes so much sense. And I think it's a, it's a good cue for us in the building industry and most [00:16:00] of our listeners, our folks in the building industry, in terms of how we select, you know, products or appropriate materials for projects too.

Before I geek out too much,

Lisa: Go for it.

Avi: because, you know, we could be at this the whole day. give me a taste of some of the winners, especially ones that, you know, really featured some great, impact stories.

Lisa: I think that the thing that's really inspiring this year, Avi, is that, well there are two things that were really inspiring. One is that for the first time we really had juror buy-in. So, you know, we bring 131 jurors who are. You know, design leaders from around the world. I mean, some really, really big names, with very illustrious careers.

Some are younger, there's no issue with sustainability. They may not be experts and some are much older. And you know, and I'm not saying it breaks by generations, it doesn't at all. But there is always a little bit of pushback of like, you know, we had a [00:17:00] situation. the 2024 award before we had moved this forward, you know where Ferrari, who participates regularly, has won their first gold in a long time this year, which is the premier, it's less than half a percent of entries.

And the question last year. Between the sustainability expert who was advising that group and the jurors who are, you know, leaders in, car design, automotive design was like, why should a sample car like this ever exist? It's gas guzzling. It's not made with recycled materials. It's made for one person.

It's a one off. It doesn't make any sense. Right? And it was a real battle. And I use that as an example. It was a battle of a conversation and of a different point of view, and it happened at micro levels across the award in different ways right of, of a pushback. And in 2025, I was blown away by, in just one year how much that attitude had shifted.

And Ferrari won gold this year for a very different car because in fact you say like, yes, it's [00:18:00] still these things, but it's not meant to be driven thousands of miles a year. It is not meant to be tossed away after three years or five years. Right? And like there was a real discussion or profound discussion, and this happened at every single category level with jurors engaging our working group and experts in a very meaningful discussion and dialogue.

that was again, packaging, digital design, product of every shape and form. and then architecture, interior architecture. So. I'm really proud of some of the winners. one in particular that's close to home for all of us is Turner, construction's new headquarters, in New York City, you know, it's in Hudson Yards and it's really a monstrous.

achievement to get lead platinum certified. and I happen to be lucky enough to have a conversation with a woman who is headed up, heads up sustainability at Turner, and talking about the project, after they've won. and it's really like, you know, she kept saying like, there was no cost [00:19:00] spared.

We didn't cut corners in order to get to this place. And that was, you know, it could have just been a nice story for architecture. It wasn't recognized specifically. We don't do a call out for sustainability, but it's an amazing sustainability story, which helped elevate the overall score, but the score wasn't, you know, carried by the sustainability.

It's just a really great, nice to have. Another project that was quite phenomenal was a jury favorite, and is it going to be awarded a gold award in Berlin at the end of April? is the World Food Waste Tea House, this is a public tea house pavilion, with a European cultural center. and it's made entirely out of recycled food waste.

this is obviously being shown in, in Venice, and during Dubai Design Week. so it was a, combination, project from 2023, but that's pretty extraordinary. Then you have things like. Out of Japan, this like incredibly high craft like broom set [00:20:00] if you will, like cleaning tools, you know, that are low carbon emission, high craft, employing like old school craftsmen, teaching younger generations how to make them.

and yes, there are high price points, so they lose a little bit on the social, uh, accessibility side, but they're Cleaning tools that are meant to be passed from generation to generation and engage a workforce. So, I mean, I could go on because of course, we have a lot of winners, but these are some of the ones that really, to me, just stand out.

yeah, I could keep going. There are many, But I, yeah, I mean, look at, look, even those three, like they illustrate like, in context. There's so many different pathways you can take, right, that are contextually appropriate, situationally appropriate for what that design does and the communities that it engages with, and I think that's so important.

Avi: are you seeing any patterns across the winners? Are you seeing businesses or designers gravitate towards certain pathways or strategies for impact over others?

Lisa: Not [00:21:00] yet. I don't think we have enough insights based on just the first year. you know, as I mentioned at the beginning. If is really, and I'm, I am just immensely grateful to I-F-C-E-O as well as our board, at the IF Design Foundation. since we're a nonprofit, you know, really dedicated to design, research and education, the mission has always been about how does design serve humanity and, I'm really amazed by the willingness to go on this journey, if you will. It's not a, we're gonna be one and done. It's not greenwashing. It's a real dedicated investment of time and resources. This close knit, collaboration with our participants, with these esteemed jurors, with our external sustainability experts, and of course.

Hopefully with the broader global design community we engage with all the time through our content, through our different awards, the Student award and the social impact prize that we do all ladder to the UN sustainable [00:22:00]development goals already. So we see an enormous amount of influx of. Interest, you know, I would say.

but the IF design award is the pinnacle of kind of design excellence, cross disciplinarily, and cross geographically, I think is where we have our greatest opportunity for impact. And we'll just keep watching because the momentum is. Now in place from 2024, building towards 2030 to really get to a place where, you know, we'll be able to tell you like, where are people leaning in?

Are there differences between the disciplines, between the geographies, between the categories? is social equity easier to access than environmental, impact? Or is it actually the opposite now? Like, what does that look like? Is it employee or supplier side? Is it materiality? Is it.

You know, recyclability is it, what is it? So I don't think we have the data right now, but I'm excited to see and frankly, if I am honest, I think you'll see some patterns. [00:23:00] But to your point, there's so many ways of having an impact and making design decisions that lead to a better outcome for all stakeholders, including people on planet I'm just eager for us to start incorporating it into every design brief and, hopefully every design award, so it's not standalone.

AD BREAK

Avi: Is there something you've learned after having, you know, been through this process the last couple of years with I.F design, setting up the structure, working with the working group, you know, some of the brightest minds thinking about sustainability in the design space at the moment. and you are kind of hearing from all of them.

is there something you're taking away from all of this?

Lisa: I think, you know, look, Avi, you and I both have been in business long enough to understand that, the dollar is still the bottom line. And that is true globally. That is what [00:24:00] capitalism is, and you know. Even nonprofits need to have revenue, right? Or an endowment.

you need to be able to have means in order to, drive, you know, things forward. am impressed by what can be achieved when groups come together. When big corporations, such as a Turner Construction or an Apple, or a Samsung, or a Lenovo, or an IBM, or a Hyundai, right? I mean, go on and on and on.

Those are just some of the big name companies who participate in win in the IF Design award each year when they make commitments. it's really impactful because it's scale, I mean, when I worked at Adidas years ago and you know, ran basically the, it was called SEA, which was social environmental working group for our licensed fenders.

So, you know, kind of certifying their factories. [00:25:00] It was highly complex, but it was a consortium of the footwear. Giants to put the downward pressure. I didn't always feel that was fair, but on our manufacturing partners, that had a huge impact on the social safety, right, on the physical safety and on the wellbeing of the workers, as well as on the outputs in terms of the tanneries and the material waste and the water waste, and all of these other aspects of.

the footwear manufacturing. The same thing is true. If you look at interior design organizations. If you can come together, if you can come together, you know, as, as furniture makers and put downward pressure on your, not only your. Suppliers, but make choices that way collectively.

and I think, you know, the big companies, the corporations have a responsibility, I fundamentally believe that. And they can afford to make these decisions, and I think it's irresponsible. And I really wish that we could have some kind of, you know, stick and carrot type situation. I'd I, I'd like it to be a carrot.

And that's on [00:26:00] the consumer side mostly that consumers want this, but they don't wanna pay more. but you also need to stick, which is regulation. and, you know, some places in the world, especially the EU, are really pushing this. China's making huge strides. Over 70% of, you know, China's energy right now is coming from renewables.

we could be so lucky in the United States. you know, nothing is perfect, but. You and I both know that like this is going to take everyone and the big companies can make an impact on their own and exert pressure. Everyone else needs to come together and work collectively and decide what is most important.

And I really would love to see that happen a little bit more across industries and and suppliers and everyone else.

Avi: Absolutely. I mean, I think you, maybe you've been on the stick side in the past, but you're on the carrot side now. So am I. We're both on the, we're both handing out carrots for good work. Carrots are powerful too. and I I love that balance you struck. You know, we need both.

yes. You know, we, we need the regulations and one, and hopefully, you know, as, as society [00:27:00] changes, as situations change around the world, we'll gradually move towards that consensus. you know, I'm really excited about that. You've been such an advocate for this kind of transformative growth and sustainability throughout your career.

can you leave us with your, with your final thought on how you see sustainability as integral to design excellence, quality of life? Right. I mean, because that's essentially what you're, you are judging at IF design, maybe even coming, going back to your, to your childhood in, in, in LA and Maine.

how do you see sustainability as so integral? Why was it so important for sustainability to be, you know, as you said, not a, differentiating factor in that sense, not like something out of the ordinary, but one of the things that defines what excellent design is.

Lisa: I mean, it's, it's a profound question, Avi. and I do not pretend to have the answer at all, right? I, I will say, if I [00:28:00] may, I'll, I'll say three things on the topic. the first is. Using someone else to answer the question. and that is the, you know, iconic industrial designer, DCHA Hams and Dita Hams made his final public appearance at age 92 last April on the I of design award stage to receive in person the first ever if f Design lifetime Achievement award.

we were founded in Hanover, Germany as part of the Hanover Messer, which was the big industrial. Trade fair, and detail not only for his work at Braun and elsewhere, won an enormous amount of IF design awards. He was a juror for over 20 years. he came on stage 2200 attendees. I would say 90% probably didn't know he was still alive and there was clapping.

And then the awe when he came on stage, when people realized it was actually deja hams. And then he [00:29:00] said, you know, he has a very heavy German accent and he, he's 92. His voice is not super clear. And what he said that he made sure was very, very clear because he repeated it three times. He said, we have a responsibility as designers to make the world better still.

Still, that was what hit me was that was always our mandate and it is still our mandate. And I feel profoundly that that is the mission of, if that is the opportunity for every designer, whatever your discipline, whatever, and, and I say creatives generally. Creative problem solvers. I talk about, the new five Ps to me of design.

You know, our product, packaging platforms, places, and policy. You have to use creativity to make the world better as designing policy, designing places, designing platforms, [00:30:00] designing our packaging in our products. And it's an act of optimism at the end of the day to be able to design because we create something out of absolutely nothing.

Who's interested in incremental? Right, like, go bigger. It's our responsibility to do something, you know, as, as Dita said, you know, to, to make the world better still. and I'll conclude with the thing that makes me increasingly, excited. To shout this message from the rooftops is not only the opportunity and the requirement and necessity for great design and creativity, but it is also the fact that increasing research is being done to showcase what actually makes business performance.

Right. Are there accelerators to. Capitalization to performance, to, you know, valuations. And I for years have talked about brand values. I mean, when I say for years, we're talking 25 years of talking about the importance of [00:31:00]value driven brand growth. Right? And I used to put this chart up that was looking at what you call intangible value.

You know, it's not hard assets, it's this intangible value of valuation of a stock market, expansion. And it was brand. There was nothing else to explain actually that intangible value and the more values driven the brand, the more it had long-term value creation for shareholders. Right. I have refined that I. Increasingly now based on my own experience now with if, which is design, actually matters as the former CEO of Reebok, who is a close friend. And, you know, former colleague said in one of our first meetups, I'm the only non-designer in the room. He said, he said, but if you all don't do your job well, I have nothing to sell.

so I've added design to that intangible. You have brand, you have design, and then you have all the research that shows and DEI may be a bad word these [00:32:00] days, but the more diversity, we are talking about gender diversity, and we are talking about racial and cultural diversity. You have on your senior leadership.

Team and on your board, the higher the performance. So from my perspective, I no longer look at the intangible value and say it's only about brand. It is about brand, it is about design, and it's about making sure that you have diversity in senior leadership. So, That's what gets me super fired up these days.

That's what makes me really excited. And, you know, I love my role at if, because it's global and it's cross-disciplinary, and I get to speak with wonderful people like you, Avi, who have a great stage and a great platform and a great, um, magazine as well. So, thanks for having me.

Avi: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for not only for being here, which of course we're thankful for, but also for all the work. You're doing at, if I think really if you step back, you're redefining how we understand design excellence, and I think that De Ram's quote is so opposite, you know, still, it's still about making the [00:33:00] world better, and that's what you're doing.

Thank you so much for talking to us today.

Lisa: thank you for having me. I don't know if I'm making the world better, but I know that designers do.

Avi: Deep Green is produced by the Surround Podcast Network. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte, with support from Rachel Santo and Lauren Volcker. We're talking to the biggest experts on sustainable architecture and design all this season, and a new episode will drop every month. So catch the next episode of Deep Green in a few weeks wherever you get your podcasts.