Live from NeoCon: Helene Oberman with Neel Bradham of Parador

This transcript was made by an automated service. In some areas there may be errors. 

Helene Oberman: [00:00:00] I'm Helene Oberman, managing Director of Interior Design Magazine, and I would like to welcome you to Surround Presents and I am here with Neil Bradham, CEO, and managing director of Parador. Hi Neil. And welcome.

Neel Bradham: Thank you. I'm, I'm happy to be here.

You know, I mean, in this industry, if you're not excited about a day like today, you know you're not living. I know. What are you excited about then? Come on. I mean.

Helene Oberman: Well, you know, before we get started, I do have a few people I like to thank first, and you know, we have some amazing partners. So we are recording today's episode in our Neo Cod Podcast lounge and we have to thank of course, our great friend and partner material bank, and we're right here in Chicago in the Merchandise Mart.

And of course we also have to thank, we were in some comfy chairs from Stylex and Hog. We have some beautiful turf acoustical materials [00:01:00] behind us, and we have to thank KI Walls for our actual podcast lounge. So thank you all. But you know, it's the first day of NeoCon. You know, it's Monday morning and you can really, I mean, I can hear it from right here, the buzz and excitement.

Of the show. But Neil, how are you feeling? 'cause of course you have some excitement because this is like, this marks the official like debut of Parador here in the United States.

Neel Bradham: It really does. Very exciting day for us. And we have, we have some of our team here, right? So we have, our head of design is here, our CMO outta London.

She's come over. Um, and we're really building our team here and very excited about what we're trying to do in the United States. I mean, parador. We're coming up on about 50 years of, um, of our company and a long legacy of, of product into the European market. Um, we manufacture in Germany and Austria. Uh, we have Bosnia where we do a lot of our hand stuff, and then Asia as well.

[00:02:00] And we have sort of not really tried to get in the US as a brand. And, um, you know, you're talking about the largest market in the world. Arguably, um, but also one of the great brand markets in the world. And, and I think Parado as a brand, we like to take it to the street, you know, and kind of show the consumer.

Whether it's the professional designer, be it, you know, residential or commercial, sort of what our brand can do in the United States is such a great opportunity for us to come in and do that.

Helene Oberman: Well, I hear parado knocking and like, here you are in the us but you know, I think there's some people out there are like, who's Parado?

What is Parado? So I know you're gonna really offer us today sort of that insider knowledge about this leading international design brand and how you're integrating both like beautiful design. Functionality and creating real solutions for the a and d community. And of course, how are you creating those, you know, solutions is by taking this very sort of [00:03:00] design led approach.

And, you know, let's start, 'cause you know, we're here at NeoCon and we wanna hear about product. And I wanna start with, um, your Louvre collection. Okay? Yep. So if you know this is a beautiful collection and I'm curious about how you're integrating. Sort of, um, modern innovations in manufacturing and really incorporating that with some of these sort of old world crafts and designs.

Neel Bradham: The, the LUV collection's a good example, you know, it's, uh, inspired by, you know, the castles in France, right? It's super elegant. I think it, our designers look at that as the concepts around quiet luxury. That, that would be, I think, how we would describe it. And really, how do you think about the rhythms of the space?

And it has multiple size, big versa, pat Versailles panels, sham board long, 10 foot planks, um, herringbone Chevron. It's really interesting, natural type coloring as well to it. And you can put, you can design your space, you know, based on how you want the movement to happen within it. [00:04:00] And it's really holistic design.

I, I think that's really something that I'm really very proud about. What per or has been able to do over the many years. Um, I came into this opportunity through a. Executive type search firm. Right. I didn't know the brand and, um, that was, you know, as I looked at it, like I, I, I'm not sure who Parado is a lot of hubris outta me, right?

That I should know everybody. But, um, I had worked around the European theater quite a bit and when I started to investigate it, the two main things that people talked about was the brand was known for design and it was known for product performance. And the Louv collection's a good example of how our.

Our designers have taken a holistic design approach. So it's not just about the aesthetic, right? It's how do you put it together? How do you get it sourced? How do you make sure that's on time and get it into a price point that works. Um, it's also the first example of how we've started to extend our relationships.

So a lot of this product is done by hand, [00:05:00] right? And so we are leveraging our operations around the world and some partners to do that, and it's been a really good learning curve for us. Mm-hmm. And how do you sample it by the way? Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about a meter, A meter tile. Uh oh yeah. We're gonna have to start converting.

I don't know, some math I have.

Helene Oberman: Um, well it's interesting 'cause you used the word partners and partnership and you know, the design industry is very much about collaboration and you know how good design can come out of a successful partnership. And, you know, you have your partners and manufacturing, but you know, you're also a partner.

Parado is a partner for architects. And designers alike. And you know, that's a, you know, a good takeaway I think for our listeners. But, you know, um, there's one partnership in particular I would love to have you use an example of, and that is with the team from Zaha Hadid. So tell us more.

Neel Bradham: Yeah. So one of the things interestingly about Parados, we have over our history done partnerships [00:06:00] like that, you know, design collabs where we bring someone like a Zaha Hadid in and allow them to express themselves through our product.

Um, and it's really a, a great opportunity for our designers to work with the, the specifier in a direct relationship, you know, and it's really important for us to listen to the market. And this is one way that we do that. Um, really like the concept of partnerships. Uh, whether it be with architect and the designer or even partners with people like you mentioned, material bank, right?

Or partnerships with our eMASS audit, you know, teams that, that do environmental audits. You know, it's really important for us. To innovate through ideas that come outside of our company. That's a really important concept. And, you know, innovation's iterative and the more people that can speak into what the customer wants and needs, right, the better we are about providing that to them.

And I think that comes from good partnerships and collabs, like Zaha ad. Mm-hmm.

Helene Oberman: So I wanna [00:07:00] talk about innovation. So as you mentioned earlier. You know, Parado has been around for almost 50 years. Um, you have a big anniversary coming up soon, which is very exciting. But innovation, you know, something that maybe we haven't really called out yet, but, you know, parados, a German brand, um, that's, you know, the roots.

Of the company and you know, how do you, how have you been for the last 50 years taking sort of what we all think of, you know, the German innovation, precision engineering, and apply that to flooring

Neel Bradham: Really iteratively. You know, parado was interesting. It started out mainly as a veneer. Type company. Right.

And doing furniture. So craft and handcrafted and craftsmanship has always been around the brand. Right. Um, and it got into the flooring game pretty early when laminate started to be something very popular in Europe as a, as a product in the home and, and really took it into these next levels. We were doing a non [00:08:00] vinyl resilient product back in 2017, which is really spectacular.

Right. If you've been around the commercial space to hear that, that. Yeah, the Parado was in that market so early, and a lot of that was about what's the consumer asking for? And they were looking for an environmental product, right? Um, we went out and grabbed innovation around it, um, put some patents on it, um, and then really started to iterate to get the product that, that it is today.

It's called Mazda One. Um, very excited and proud about what Parado Hass been able to do there. Um, we are very aggressive in the market right now looking at partnerships to provide innovation. We've started a really interesting finishing technology now with Engineer Wood that allows us to provide a handcrafted look in a more industrial format.

That's where you get this engineering combined with art, right? Technology and art are really grabbing each other right there and coming together, and it happens because you have these really, just this [00:09:00] maniacal approach to precision. Um, I'm fascinated by it. You know, one of the things that we talk a lot about in the company is everybody can be a leader, right?

And you don't sit behind a desk and create strategy, right? Strategy is set on the street, and it can come from salesperson in, you know, Berlin or Shanghai or London, or you know, here in Chicago. Or it can come from somebody working off the profile online. And as a company, we have to offer that opportunity for them to speak into that result.

And that's where you get real precision around your innovation and you get a lot of speed in answering the customer demand. Um, and so really excited about what we have coming.

Helene Oberman: So let's talk about, um, customer demand. And, you know, I, I know the designers very well. And designers like to put their own stamp on a product.

And so I wanna know from a, per the perspective of Parado, you know, like customization and personalization are so key to products. [00:10:00] So, you know, how are you as a brand able to bring a designer's sort of creative vision to life

Neel Bradham: first? We love that, right? I mean, if we get a chance to do that and, and allow a designer to express themselves and however they choose to do it, you know, we, we want to do it.

It. Right? If they love it, we love it, right? I mean, that's how we wanna do it. We gotta set up a system around it. And it's not just about how do you do a bespoke color or size or something, right? You, you know, that's, that's the end result, right? You have to set your full value chain up to get there. And there's a lot of work at Parado right now about driving flexibility in the middle, right?

Driving flexibility of our design teams, right? How we color, how we finish, how we look at sizing, you know, how do we make sure the application's right? So that we can get the lead times. We have to have the runner, of course. Right. We have a lot of square meterage of manufacturing capacity. And so, you know, we talk a lot about how we balance those and it's a tricky balance.

I mean, [00:11:00] but we really, really enjoy the opportunities to personalize our product. We really do.

Helene Oberman: And you know, designers love to personalize it. They love to personalize the product. Oh, they love to personalize.

Neel Bradham: I always, we have a joke with our, uh, our head of product planning and I just say to 'em, I, Hey, you know, get.

Make peace with the fact that you will never have the right product at the right time. Yeah. You know, it's just never gonna happen.

Helene Oberman: Well, I wanna switch gears a little bit 'cause certainly you're a design forward brand, but you know, at the heart of who you are, you're also a sustainable brand. And you know, you take a holistic approach to design and really are looking at it from the perspective of like how you are operating from like material sourcing to your production processes.

And you know, as we know, besides the fact that designers love to customize, can't. You know, but you know, they're also much more mindful about the products that they specify and, you know, they don't want to compromise on their sustainability goals. And, you know, we know a lot of the firms have them in [00:12:00] place.

So, you know, how is Parado manufacturing in a responsible and sustainable manner? Because I think that is so key to how designers are specifying their product.

Neel Bradham: And first I would comment here, we agree, right? I mean, you, you, we don't want to compromise beauty for. For, you know, a sustainable product, right?

We, we, we wanna show beauty into the market and it can be sustainable. And another one of the things I was very impressed about the brand, as I started to understand our company, there's a long history of per or trying to do what it can do for the environment and the people that inhabit it. I mean, there, there really is.

Um, and I think, and it's interesting, such it's an altruistic type ethos for, for parado. Um. We love certifications. I have to be fair, you know, the, the, the European mindset is very much that if you can, if you can set a roadmap, they'll execute. And, and our team's very good at that. And we use the eMASS type audits.

We use [00:13:00] Vedis or Vedis Gold to put some lines in the sand and help us understand what it means to be sustainable. Um, you know, all the EPDs and the HPDs and the things that you have to have for the architect and design community have to be there. But what you really gotta start with is the ethos. Hmm.

Right. You have to believe in where you're trying to go and what you're trying to do. We have a natural product. Mm-hmm. Right? We do. And, and 75% of our portfolio is natural products, whether it's engineer wood or something to do with a laminate or this eco-friendly product with modular one. And we have to protect the environment.

Um, and we work very hard in our value chain. You talked about it. Um, so those are things we're really focused on. Um, you know, we've got the solar arrays, of course, right? We just put one on top of one of our big logistics center, and those are kind of the flashy items that look really good. But it's the hard work.

It's the hard work of being Blue Angel certified in Germany, which you probably have not even heard of that certification, right? Um, it's the hard work of doing the [00:14:00] DGMB in Germany, which basically is the lead equivalent. Right. And our teams have to go through the process of analyzing the product, making sure the spreadsheets are filled in, and making sure that we're really clear about what we are trying to do.

Mm-hmm. Um, and third parties help us do it

Helene Oberman: Well, let's talk about third parties. 'cause I think besides the certification process. Um, and I'm sure it's difficult 'cause now every time you enter a new country, you kind of have to make sure that you, you like, you fit the bill in a way. But we have

Neel Bradham: like a NASCAR of badges I

Helene Oberman: can only imagine across these countries.

Um, but you know, you also, you know, lend a helping hand, right? And so, you know, we keep on the par. This idea of partnership keeps on coming up and on the sustainability. Front, one of the partnerships you have is with an organization called Plant for the Planet. Mm-hmm. And, you know, what does that mean for you and, and what does the partnership look like?

Neel Bradham: It's our way of, of handling the [00:15:00] reforestation question. That's part of it. You know, it also allows us to sort of think tree for a tree, if you will. Um, it also is a good example of what we're trying to do in the community. Right. So sustainability, as you know, you know, it's an ESG type of a mechanism and we benefit from a lot of strong governance in our main manufacturing outta Germany and Austria in particular.

And so we're held to a pretty high standard just from a government governance perspective, but we really go beyond governance, really do. And one of the ways we do that, obviously with environment, um, in doing things like that, but also in our social stance, you know, it's very important that we get to know our mills towns.

Uh, we're involved with their, you know, with their councils. Um, we're involved in the schools. Um, I learned a lot of this from having a, being able to watch a guy, a great leader in our industry by the name of Ray Anderson, which I think a lot of people have probably heard of. And Dan Hendricks who, who came after [00:16:00] Ray and got to see sort of what does it mean for a brand to really go into the community.

Understand what they're trying to do around the environment and the people in that community and really invest in it. And at per, we're working hard on that really are, we have interesting, um, budgetary line items for health, which are really interesting. They're voluntary, right? You don't, you don't have to do 'em within the, the, the German gap or any European gap laws.

Um, but the government does help you, right? You, you get some opportunities if you invest in that, but we do a lot of that to try to invest back in our people around their health and wellness. Um, also into the communities, you know, that the mills are in. So we try to look at, we call it al one actually. Um, so one earth, one people, one planet.

Um, and that's how we handle our ESG, our ESG goals. The UN Global Compact is another really good example of where we're moving it. It's a. It allows you a good framework and we're working really hard on getting to [00:17:00] SBTI, the Science-Based Targets Initiative. Um, we're going off the grid actually this year.

It'll be a big year for us, so we're trying to get there before we turn 50. Um, but we'll be climate neutral in Scope two, you know, by the end of this year. So it's a really exciting year for us on that regard.

Helene Oberman: No, I mean, I really do appreciate. That, and you know, we kind of said it like you're taking a holistic approach.

So it's looking beyond just a healthy planet, but healthy people. And, you know, it is, we all have to work together towards that. Um, I know you, you spoke about it earlier, but kind of circling back to the fact that like, you know, as much as like we wanna think about healthy people and planet, like at the end, we're a design company and we're a design industry.

And you did speak about your modular one. But like, how is it like, first of all, what was the impetus for it to come about, you know, and why is it so important? Because it is a, both a beautiful and eco-conscious product

Neel Bradham: started from the consumer actually. And [00:18:00] Parado was very heavy into the consumer. You know, uh, we're an omnichannel business across Europe, so we do a lot of residential and high-end re we do DIY residential, high-end resi, commercial, you know, all the different segments from the commercial.

Um, segment around Europe, but this came from the consumer, right? And it came from mainly, you know, the, what we would call the dock region. So that's Germany, Austria, Switzerland, um, and that demand for an environmental product and sort of this aversion of vinyl. And so it's a 99% natural product, right? It looks, and it smells like wood.

It walks like wood. Um, and then we have a hundred percent post-consumer polypropylene top. It goes on top of it. So it's much more resilient than sort of engineer wood. And it allows the interesting con, interesting concept for the consumer and the designer to be able to kind of go from an engineered wood type concept down into this product.

And it still be a natural, environmentally sensitive [00:19:00] product, great seller for us to have to be fair. And it's a lot of our innovation platforms coming off of that.

Helene Oberman: Um. So, you know, we've looked at design or we spoke about design, we've talked about sustainability, but let's talk about business. 'cause that's your role, right?

Yeah, that's my role. Like you are the business guy. You are the business face of, um, Parado. And you know, I really wanna talk about this. European heritage, but looking at how that's really influencing all of your global strategies, um, for Parado and you know, we kind of, you know, we started out this whole conversation because we are here at NeoCon celebrating the official launch of Parado here in the United States, and, you know, what does that mean for the company?

I know you said like, yes, the US is the largest market, but like why now?

Neel Bradham: Yeah. First of all, it's an interesting challenge as an American, right? So I was the first official American in our company, [00:20:00] right? As as an employee. Um, and now we have more, right? So we're building our team here, 50 years of legacy, a lot of square meter to manufacturing.

A lot of people know our brand, our product's been in the market for a long time. But United States, we are effectively a startup. And it's a really interesting challenge as an operator and. Um, we start with the brand. So I think the big move for us has been really moving the brand into the market. I think we, we did some great projects.

I mean, we've done the Ritz, we did the Waldorf in New York, we did the Hyatt Grand Cayman, right? So we, we've proven that the product can be successful. What we have not proven yet is that the brand can be successful. And one of the things I mentioned to our shareholder as I was going through the process of joining the company and I, I sort of looked under the hood of Parado and.

I said, I think the world kind of needs to know this brand, right? There's a lot here, and the [00:21:00] US will love this brand. We just have to find a way to make sure we expose it. Um, and I'm really interested to see how we do it. Right? It's a great challenge. Um, you talked about, you know, I'm, I'm the, the business person on here in a, in a creative like design environment.

I want to be designer. I wish I could. Right. Not my game, but I think we gotta be creative. We gotta be creative on the business side now and it's gonna be a great challenge for us.

Helene Oberman: So are you approaching the US market from a business perspective differently than you would in Germany or in London where you're based, like what is, like, how do you run the business here that's different for anywhere else?

Neel Bradham: The interesting thing about it being a little bit of a startup is we get an opportunity to really listen. And Right. We don't have assets that we're beholden to. We don't have a structure that we're beholden to. Um, and so much is changing right now. I mean, you, me, you mentioned material bank, right? I mean, the digital aggregators have changed the game a lot of [00:22:00] ways in how brands can go to market when they don't have a lot of feed on the street.

Right? So we've got an opportunity right now to really kinda listen to the designer and the architect and understand. In the commercial space and even that professional domestic space, right? 'cause we do a lot of high and resi. How do they want to be talked to? Right? How do they want product on their doorstep?

Uh, what type of product are they listening, you know, do they want? And then we can build our business around some of that, which I'm really excited about. Um, a lot of the data, you know, one of your, your sister companies with Think Lab and Amanda and what they do, you know, they say that a lot of the specif specifiers are under the age of 35.

Or 30 even. Right. And I have young daughters, they grew up with a phone in their hand and they're digital people. Um, and so we can come into, we've gotta build digital assets, which we're right in the middle of doing, you know, all the websites, all the visualizers and the things we have to do, all the digital imagery.

Um, [00:23:00] but it's gonna be an interesting challenge for us to sort of approach this market with a little bit of, of more, of an ear to the ground. Versus in a place like Germany or European market where we have a lot of assets that are already beholden and we have big sales team manufacturing, this set up a certain way, value systems set up a certain way.

Um, so we kind of have to run that play the way that it already is done there. Whereas in this market we can, we can be faster. Mm-hmm. And I think we have to be different. You know, we have to be different. The US is a crowded market. We know that. Right? But what's interesting about Parado is they're, they're companies that have our products set, but they're not European genesis.

Right. And I think that adds a little bit of cache for us. Um, we have to stay true to our European design ethos, right? Our products are gonna be European. They need to be, um, they have, as I like to say to our teams, we just have to put the steering wheel on the right side of the [00:24:00] car. Right? It it, but we gotta still be our brand.

Um. There are some European players here that don't have our full product set either. And so I do feel like there's a space for us. Um, it's gonna be an interesting journey to see how fast we can get there.

Helene Oberman: Well, of course we were touching on the us but Neil, I do wanna talk about the world domination that you have going on right now because you are expanding into 80 different countries.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And with that kind of growth, how are you really able to sort of tackle the very specific local needs of designers in each of those different countries, but exactly to the point you just made. How do you stay true to like your brand integrity? Like, you know, that seems like a difficult challenge you have to overcome.

Neel Bradham: First you do start with a brand. Right. So you really kind of have to make sure you're really clear as a company about where, what you stand for. You know, design, sustainability, innovation, product precision, that's sort of [00:25:00] us. Um, when you grab partners in these other markets, you're expanding into, they have to match your ethos.

You know, we're not gonna bring in somebody into our ecosystem that doesn't match us because that, that will be dilution to them or us. Um, you mentioned the expansion. Uh, last year was a heck of a year. Uh, we stood up a company in Hong Kong. We stood up one of the United Arab Emirates in Dubai. We stood up the United States, um, launched manufacturing in Asia for Asia.

And it was a big year on the global market, you know, and the US is our focus this year. Um, I anticipated to be the same big year. Um, it's a big balance though, you know, it really is. And we like to say local for local. Right. We know the designer in Berlin and Shanghai and London and Chicago as we are here, will, will interpret our product differently.

Mm-hmm. We know we have to work in the whole interior. Right. The whole interior, not just the [00:26:00] floor. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and so that's really important and our designers spend a lot of time in the market. They go to Milan, they go to Clark and Will. They go to the design days down in Asia, they're here at NeoCon.

You know, they go to Kipps Bay even, right? Or the Wow House and what they do in London to look at style, um, make sure we're listening to the Zahad of the world. Um, and that allows us to understand how we can put local product on the ground, whether it be an aesthetic or an application or, you know, the different, uh, certifications as you mentioned.

Um, and so it, it's, it's complex. It's a balance. You can't do it all. And we do select markets, you know, as, as we go in our growth path this year is about the US. Hmm.

Helene Oberman: Well, and I, I can understand that there's a lot of influences in how you could probably take the best part of everything that you're learning in every market and how that can influence the company moving forward.

But I'm also curious in terms of the sort of, um, collision of different cultures, even internally, right? [00:27:00] Because you have the ownership of the brand. You have, obviously your German heritage and you know, the scrappiness of the American at the helm, and how is that gonna really benefit the company moving forward?

Neel Bradham: I'm, I'm laughing because you so eloquently put that the collision of cultures, um, it's a great place to work right now. Um, and it is a little bit like putting a, you know, patchwork quilt together right. And making something that's really beautiful. You mentioned our ownership structure. It was super fortunate.

You know, we have one of the largest and really a royal, almost family out of India that, that owns us, the Burla organization and uh, CK Burla Group. And we're part of a greater, a much bigger entity than Parado And um, that offers us a lot of comfort. And me as an operator, a lot of comfort. I know our. I know our ownership groups behind us, you know, and they get involved in the business too.

I mean, you know, they're walking the floor or they're talking about marketing or whatever it may be. [00:28:00] Um, and so it's really interesting as you look at just those cultures coming together, American coming into the German, like German cultures, really interesting. Right now we have five different nationalities on our leadership team.

Right. And over 20, I think almost 30 nationalities across the company at large. We do operate in over 80 countries, um, and we're expanding that, you know, every day. But Parados gotta be a culture of its own, you know, it really does, and we're working hard on that. We're partner with Gallup doing the Q 12. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's really important that we set a baseline, we define how we wanna play.

Right. How we wanna play and the number one thing on how we wanna play is a, a culture that empowers, we use a statement to educate, inspire and empower. And if we can do that in every interaction with our stakeholder, we're gonna win, right? And so it's sort of continuous loop around education and [00:29:00] inspire inspiration and empowering our people to go.

Go make things happen that, that allows us as an organization to hold a brand that's parado and not a country or geo-specific brand.

Helene Oberman: Well, Neil, I kind of wanna wrap this all up because like we've been here talking about the success and future success of Parado. Um, but you know, I'm, I'm curious what you specifically are really looking forward to the most in the next 50 years.

Neel Bradham: I'd like to see the world know our brand. Yeah, I really would. Um, I get to watch it. I get to watch it, you know, my job's easy, you know, I just try to put people in a spot to do really good work. And it starts with people, you know, if we hire good people, we educate 'em, you inspire 'em, and you let 'em go do their job, we're gonna be successful.

And I'm really excited about watching that. You know, I, I think we, we as a brand, the brand will get out there. We make great product, you know, but I think [00:30:00] anybody that. Is in our industry knows that relationships matter, you know, and our people go out there and they, yes, they wear a Parado jersey, but they also have their own brand.

And we wanna allow 'em to do that. And I'm really excited about watching it happen. We have great product come into the market, no doubt. Right? And our innovators and our designers continue to do that. Um, and we're gonna keep launching good product in the market. Um, and there's a lot of sort of. Horizon three innovations that we have in our back pocket.

And that's exciting. But the best thing is gonna just be watching some people be successful. And I'm excited about that.

Helene Oberman: Well, Neil, I have to say I wish you much success.

really appreciated all your time and your insight into parado, the business, the design, you know, really learning about how you are a true.

Partner and really solution provider for the a and d community. And I look forward to what's gonna happen here, um, as you really plant roots in the us. I wanna just thank before we wrap up, you know, our wonderful sort of surround [00:31:00] presents, um, partners today for Material Bank, ki Walls, Styx Hog and Turf.

So thank you Neil. Yeah,

Neel Bradham: and I'd like to thank you guys. You know, you've talked about partnership, but what we're. The partnership we're doing with Sandel is important. It really is. And, and I think what you do in the market's inspirational, um, particularly for a guy that's not a designer, right? I really like what you're doing and I think our company's very fortunate to have this with as a partner.

So thank you.

Helene Oberman: Thank you, Neil.