Live from NeoCon: AJ Paron with Wick Wolfe of Unika Vaev

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Welcome to Surround Presents. Today, we're featuring Once Upon a Project, the podcast where we go beyond the finished space to uncover the real thinking behind how great design comes to life.

And today, we're recording live from NeoCon. So if you hear a little extra energy in the room, that's why. today we're living in a moment where everything is faster, more products, more content, more noise. We were just talking about noise. But here's the question I keep coming back to: what actually lasts in design?

Because design isn't about products, it's about principles, and most of us have forgotten the difference. So today, I'm joined by Wick Wolf, president of Unica Vev. Wick's career spans decades of design thinking from early influences in automotive design to working [00:01:00] alongside and learning from some of the most important voices in modern design.

And today, he's leading a company that's quietly shaping how we experience space, not just visually, but sensorially. Wick, welcome. but sensorially. Wick, welcome.

Thank you, AJ. Thanks for having me here. First of all, we're sitting in this beautifully designed jewel box that is featuring all of your products here at NeoCon, and I have to tell you, it's one of my favorite spaces.

 : We are literally looking through the glass into the hallway of the 11th floor and seeing all these amazing people walk by and enjoy NeoCon, which is super fun. but, I really wanna get into a little bit about you, Wick. So let's start at the beginning because your path into design didn't start where most people start in design.

you started with cars.

  8: I did.

   : What

 : I did. What did that teach you about design that still shows up in your [00:02:00] work today?

   : That's very interesting

   : know, I was, I was only about... I think it was maybe I was four years old, five years old. And, my mother was very close friends with the Williams brothers. probably the most famous of them is Andy Williams. And she happened to be close friends with his brother, Dick Williams' wife. And one day, a summer day, I couldn't tell you what year, it was probably ' 4, we took a ride up to Dick Williams' home.

was somewhere in Upper Westchester County. And we pulled up and,

the reason I can remember the home is more about what I saw sitting in the driveway. We got out of the car. The home was a very low-slung, modernist, glass, low shrubbery. I'd never seen anything like it, having grown up in mid-suburbia.

But that was, that was nothing. There was a beautiful red, what I learned later, was a ' 2, [00:0 :00] 19 2 Thunderbird, which they called the Bullet Bird. It was the second generation of Thunderbird that was designed. The first Thunderbird was quite small. The second Thunderbird, they just went full body on it. what was fabulous about this car that really caught me Was the fact that the top folded down into the trunk.

It was a very complex automobile. The trunk lid opened backwards, used a series of about

   : 2 ,

   : 2 , uh, sensors. Each one had its own magical thing. One put the windows down, one unscrewed the top, the top would go down, and then it completely, it completely hid the top. But the thing that really stuck with me, 'cause I learned all this later, was that the, car was essentially a four-seater.

It had a full bench back seat, and it had these beautiful low-slung bucket seats, no headrest, none of that stuff mattered back then.

   : But

   : But the [00:04:00] interior of that car was stunning because it was designed much like a cockpit. It drew its, it drew its design from aviation, from the age of space travel, as, as many cars were doing back then.

And I looked at it and I saw that the trunk actually extended right up to the back seats. And what it was is there was this massive red fiberglass piece that locked into place, and it was shaped so that each side of

the,

they called it a Landau cover, each side of it came up in a slight

hump

to match the rectangularity of the top of the driver's and passenger's seat.

So you essentially had a massive two-seat convertible.

   : Oh, I get it.

   : it.

So that to me- That's cool ... I can't tell you what happened. I just, it turned [00:0 :00] something on in me that, that I never knew was, that I had. I was, I was five years old. What, what did I know, you know? But from that moment

on,

car design became something that I just became passionate about.

And at one point when I was younger, I was convinced I would be a car, an automobile designer, sketching, doing my things. And, and then as, you know, as life takes you along its path, that didn't happen. But what did happen to me was that I've had a propensity for owning a lot of cars over the years. So I think I've owned about  0 cars in

my-

   : Oh, my

goodness

   : in my  0 years of driving.

 : Okay. How many cars do you have right now?

   : Okay. How many cars do you have right now? Uh, I only have three. And really, you know, I have a, I, I have a nice little sports car but, that I really love. It's about 2  years old. And I, you know, I'm not one of these guys that can, that can just get his car out of his garage and tool down to the store.

I have to, it has to be able to scream up the highway. It has to be able to perform. They were [00:0 :00] meant to be driven. Yes. You know, design is meant to be

used.

   : Right.

   : I think that's- Right? People don't design things to just sit there and stare at.

 : So

I can really appreciate how you're looking at something like this incredible vehicle and see it transform and understand the design thinking that went into that.

Even at an early age, you understood that there was innovation there. You've also been influenced by some of the greats,

right? I have. Eames, Florence Knoll, Mies. They weren't designing for trends. They were designing off of principles. What did that generation understand about design that we might be losing today?

   : I think when you look at somebody, you know, I'm not gonna talk about a lot of designers, but because these designers came into my life early in my career and had a profound impact about how I perceive [00:0 :00] design, not necessarily what I like in design, was that I, I realized and did a lot of reading and,

and

got to meet some of these design luminaries.

I mean, I, I met Florence Knoll. I was just, you know, in my 20s, and she came walking to the showroom. At that point she'd sold the company, but she was still Florence Knoll. Right.

   : Right

   : And, you know, I think that those designers did not view something as a product to be designed they went at it fundamentally.

They didn't say, "Oh, gee, what do we need to do here? What do we need to design?" If you looked at what Florence Knoll did in 19 0 when Paley hired her to, to redo the CBS offices or to design those CBS offices, yes, she, she took a deep dive into what the American workplace looked like. It was pretty rotten back then.

You know, it really [00:08:00] wasn't a- Right ... the office was not a pleasant place.

And we

   : was more of a factory,

   : Yeah, we can't romanticize what it was. You know, we can look at, we can look at ads from the ' 0s and '40s and oh, the, the ad looks great, but what kind of a hellish place to work. Right.

   : Right

   : and she, she understood through a lot of research what the office needed to be at that moment in time.

You know, there was minor technology coming in. There was a change in the way people interacted, and in the case of CBS, there was a need specifically to develop a product that was suited for their needs. So she looked at it fundamentally. She didn't, you know, she didn't say, "Well, I got, I have to design this desk and I have to design this

chair."

She

took

her, you know, her Bauhaus training, and she said, "Okay, this is, this is what I [00:09:00] see,

but it,

it must

   : be,

it

   : be something that's workable, and it must have long-lasting impact."

I

don't think Florence Knoll ever said, "Gee, I wanna see this in 100 years in the same office," but that never was, that was never the intent with any of these great designers.

They designed from fundamentals. They didn't design saying, "Oh, I need, I think we need a polished steel chair, you know, with hard leather." I think the inspiration came much like any artist. It comes, it comes from deep in the mind. It's, it's an experiential, lineal design. It's, it's no different than somebody who's composing a song or somebody who's making a painting.

They start it, they're inspired

through it,

and then they get to the end of it, and that's the, that's design that [00:10:00] lasts. Not designing for a, a moment. Not designing for, "Oh my God, we need this, we need a really cool garbage receptacle," or, "We really need a, the, a chair with five stars."

   : What was Florence like?

   : Well,

in the, in the nanosecond that I met her, I mean, she walked in. At that point, the company was owned by, um, Kogan and Swid, and we heard she was coming, and it was, it was almost like the president's in town. I mean, every, every minion in, at Knoll was running hither and yon because, you know, at that point, you know, we had introduced open office concept at Knoll, but the main showroom, which was a pioneering place to work 'cause it was in, it was in, uh, SoHo.

They were the first company to open a showroom in SoHo, and there was nothing else around. But it was filled with all of her desi- all the, all the Knoll classics, all the Knoll studio products. She, she [00:11:00] walked in, and she

just...

She had a, she had a presence, a stoicness, but a, but a, a friendliness. But at that point in her life, you know, she was, I think she was living up in Michigan trimming her trees that go up to her house, and she really was known for that.

And she was very

polite,

and there wasn't a lot to say to her 'cause she just kinda showed up, and everybody

wanted

kinda her opinion on things, and I never really got that, I never got those answers. But I have to tell you what, you were definitely in somebody, somebody's presence who was a

great person.

 : great person. Yeah. That's, I mean, from all the research I obviously... I haven't met her- 'cause She had passed by the time I got into design. But, you know, she had this

   : aura about her She did

 : was a greatness without, with humility though, you know?

And I think true designers, they're really looking for a problem to [00:12:00] solve, and that problem might be different it, today than it was back then, but you can see it's the beauty, it's everything that goes into it that makes it timeless and that you appreciate. So what were you doing in your career at that time?

   : At Knoll? Mm-hmm. I had helped them open the showroom. I was a lowly, entry-level

guy,

from a fire hose. Accidentally got that job. I, I feel like it ... I feel like my plans in life, everything led me right through. And, I was very close friends with a gentleman whose daughter was a marketing manager at Knoll, and he knew that I had a passion for design.

And he just said, he said, "Rick, you, I've gotta get you an interview with this company." I said, "What company?" And I did some research, as much as you could do in 1980,

   : Yeah, there was

 : no

internet

back

   : was no internet. Yeah. Run to the library and find a book on Knoll. My first interview was with, like, the top four [00:1 :00] senior executives at Knoll.

And, and they're right there. They are at, at Madison Avenue in their corporate offices, 'cause they had built the showroom a, a year or two later. And I remember walking into that showroom and feeling like it was, it was like walking into an art gallery for me. Everything was just

so.

and it really, over the next two years that I worked there, I realized that design aesthetic and that interiors, there's a reason why, there's a reason why spaces exist the way they do when done properly.

Because they become experiential. And so then I was, I was very fortunate. I developed a very keen interest in textiles. my family had come from a textile background. And,

I

started to get involved with Knoll Textiles, and then eventually, after a few years, moved down to their plant in Pennsylvania.

And ended up, you know, kind of running that [00:14:00] operational division, and then I just kept going. You know, at that point, Westinghouse had purchased Knoll, and, you know, I won't say much about that, but the company survived well, and then the company's in great hands now.

 : So when you were that very junior person meeting Florence Knoll at the beginning of your career, did you ever think you would be a president of a design products manufacturer?

   : No,

actually

   : I, I had, I hadn't given it much thought. I, I was drinking up what was around me. I mean, I, I got to meet great people like Robert Venturi and, Lucia Mercer who did the Mercer table for Knoll, the cantilevered granite table, and, so many great textile designers like a Japanese couple named Nob and Non who were just amazing.

They were just groundbreaking. And then I had

I

think the b- the breakthrough for me in terms of my own journey was that became very, very well acquainted and [00:1 :00] good friends with a textile designer named Jane

Barnes.

And, Jane and I were ... She was launching what was the most successful product in the history of Knoll Textiles, and I was a part of that journey.

And by diving into that process, that is when I realized

that

I

can be part of this process, and that kind of turned

something

on

in

me.

Mm. And

that kind of led to a passion. You know, when you're young, you're in your 20s, your late 20s, you're still developing.

   : Right.

   : You don't know what you want, but you do start to form opinions, and those opinions guide you.

And mine took place primarily, I would say, in my early  0s when my passion for not just design but for the way a business can be run kinda led me to where I am. So I've have had the opportunity to own a couple of companies, and,

um, loved that,

and I've been [00:1 :00] leading in this industry, leading, not a leader, but leading my companies since the '90s.

So I've been very fortunate, and I've had good people around me. I've had great mentors, people that I can still call today. You know, old Neoconners never die. They just- age out.

 : Yes, they d-- we do. We do age out. but sometimes you still

come

back

even if we

   : You

  8: do.

 : we do.

So one of the things that you've said to me, you know, here we are at NeoCon, which is the Super Bowl of our industry, right? It's like when everyone is bringing out their new products, and it's new, new, new, new, new.

But something you said to me recently is this isn't about product. It's about design. So when you're launching new products, explain to us what the difference is and how that plays into what you're developing, what you're pushing into the market, [00:1 :00] and how that process works.

   : That's a, a very good

   : but I think I have to dive back a little into what Neocon is and what it's become. Because, you know, when I first came to Neocon in the '80s as a wide-eyed 2 -year-old or whatever, it was a party.

   : Yes, it

was

   : mean, you know, we're all dressed in our f- best suits, and we got blisters on our feet because we had to wear our new shoes, and tried to stay out till 4:00 in the morning and make those early 8:00 AM meetings and look relevant.

Somehow we thought we did. Anyway, but, you know, it was always very stoic, staid. Everybody was standing in their showrooms with their arms folded, and, you know, I saw it evolve over the years. And I, and I think this is an important aspect to, to what your question

is.

Design

rolls along, right? And, and

you

have,

you have different levels of designers: company designers, staff designers, market managers, people that are identifying a [00:18:00] trend that needs to be met or a, what they believe to be a gap or an opportunity for design.

And

I

think

that

the best design

is the

most simplistic design because that design

is

based on a foundational, lineal,

fundamental need or, or idea that a designer, and it doesn't have to be a famous designer, it can be a staff designer somewhere working in a, in the engineering office at Steelcase. It doesn't

mean

that they can't design the most fabulous task chair, which is important.

But, you know, I can recall there were always, you know, the design winners, and there were fabulous designs. I mean, I can remember in the, I think

it was

the '

90s,

when Ross Lovegrove, designed

the

Go chair

For Bernhardt. Right. I mean, Bernhardt had some phenomenal designers. But [00:19:00] you know, Ross Lovegrove didn't design that chair to say, "Well, people really need to sit in this chair."

He designed this chair because

it

was his art.

Mm-hmm.

And

Gerry Helling worked with

him

on that,

and

they made it

come

to market. And it, you know, that was the first chair made of magnesium. Mm-hmm. You know? And we all now know that magnesium is very

good

for your

health, so

sitting in a Go chair

is

very

good for you.

But what I, what I wanna

get

to is

I think what's,

what's happening

here,

and this'll get to our kind of design

philosophy,

we

are experiencing a seismic

shift

in

the way ...

I call them next gen. I try not to talk about Gen Z or Gen Xers, Millennials, '

cause

frankly,

I can't care enough to figure out what year you were born in.

I just observe people

   : The young people.

   : younger generation. And you know, I think every generation has to pay forward to the next [00:20:00] generation. I saw it with my own parents and what they went through and having to use a TV remote, and that was, like, foreign to them and ... But, but what I see

is,

and this is a good example, even with my, within

my

own family,

there's an eight-year spread between my

children.

Mm-hmm. Now, my  2-year-old daughter, she's

old-school. Facebook, et cetera,

et

cetera.

My,

you know, my 28-year-old daughter, little bit more with it with ... That's not meant to be a criticism, it's just a different way that they process information. It's a different way that they can get their information. And then my soon-to-be 2 -year-old

son,

oh, God, he will be 2  

this

year,

is yet another level.

Mm. So within that same, quote, unquote, "generation," that is

the seismic

shift that

I'm talking

about.

And that, I think, is the most, the most important

[00:21:00] thing

that our industry or any industry must understand, that we are no longer just designing products. Right.

   : Right.

   : this generation is drinking from a fire hose.

So we're all trying to figure out, okay,

how

do we,

how do we make their

lives-

I'd have to say the word easier, but how do

we

give them what they need to process what's coming at them, whether it's text messages

on WhatsApp- Mm-hmm AI's generating content, great research is being done by people like Amanda Schneider.

All of these things that are important and that can define their lives, it has to be given to them

in

a way

through product design, through space design,

that

they

can feel

like they can work. They don't work the same way that we worked in 1982.

   : No, they

   : My God, I mean, you know, [00:22:00] AJ, in 1982 we still had Telex machines,

and-

for any of those

that

don't know

this, look it up on the

1. Um, Telex

machines, fax machines, um, typewriters. Typewriter- remember typewriters that had keys and then typewriters that had little balls that were like, uh, that had

a little... It was just... It's been an amazing thing to watch. Adding machines. The adding machines, yes.

The adding machines, yeah. The adding machines. So does that kind of, influence what, what we do at Unigov? Well, I'd say that in, in the world of acoustics, 'cause that's really where we are now, we are

not

interested

in just

having

product

cut from stuff- Mm ... and hung somewhere.

We understand that there is that need for that in the market. We don't ignore it. We embrace it. But the design journey for us is, as I said earlier, it's foundational. It's, it's fundamental. It doesn't... Y- [00:2 :00] you know, we don't sit in a room and say, "Well, I think we should have, you know, a baffle that's, you know, three feet and six feet and nine feet long we should have available in twe- 20 colors."

That is not the- that is not UniQuva's foundation as a company. UniQuva

was founded

in

Denmark

as a design-oriented company. It found its f- its roots, know, in, like, movements with Verner Panton, and if you saw some of the, the photos of what UniQuva was in the ' 0s, it was

like

mod squad. Very cool. But always pushing the envelope.

So yes, we had our textile division for

many

years,

and then

we just, we

just

saw this

really

extensive need as the

office

changed

for

acoustic products, and so we were one of the first companies that did that, along with a few of our competitors.

but

journey when I'm directing the design of what I want to have happen, it's, it's twofold.[00:24:00]

Number one, it's

working with European partners, partners in the APAC, in

Australia,

and working with their design

teams,

and

coming up with products, designing products that are not

just

PET on a wall. Right. Although it's a valid, it's a valid product,

PET.

it's a very easy way to s-

absorb

sound.

But

clients don't walk out of a restaurant saying, "Gee, the NRC rating on that restaurant was just terrific. Didn't you think so, Bill?" No, they don't say that. They come out and they say, "Oh my God, that was the worst dinner I ever had," or, "I couldn't hear a thing you said," or, or, "Oh, I really like the interiors of this restaurant.

It's very cool, but oh my God." Right. So our goal is to not just produce

products

that,

that

solve the problem, but products that solve the de- the design problem, what I [00:2 :00] perceive to be the design problem. I find a lot of products to be quite boring. Yes. Quite vanilla. And, you know, I'm not interested. Not interested.

 : a lot of products to be quite boring Yes ... quite vanilla. And, you know, I'm not interested. Well- I'm not interested ... I have to say, um, for the listeners that don't know, we have a partnership doing this podcast lounge here at NeoCon. And when Wick and his team came to me and said, "Okay, these are all of our products you can choose from," my design side of me had so much fun because there were so many great choices.

And, we'll put some pictures in our show reel, but we have this beautiful leather wall that's acoustics. It's beautiful leather. It has a wonderful pattern of arches and, um, comes from Italy. Can you talk a little bit about the leather wall?

'Cause it is- Sure ... it's my- one of my favorite things.

   : [00:2 :00] Well, I think for the past, it's been-

   : for me at least s- eight years now of our more than probably 14-year journey in acoustics that I've continued to, to f- try

to find

products that will complement certain sound-absorbing

materials.

The

biggest challenge is that we must comply, and this is really important to, to us, We must comply with certain

codes.

Right.

flammability being number one. Sustainability right up there where flam- sustainability is there. We've, we've alway- from the first time we

introduced product,

we were pioneers working with Google, Red List Chemical, the whole thing, so I've been down that journey. I get it.

I

live

it.

I

understand

   : it.

But that's the baseline

 : for

   : But that's the baseline

for

you. The

baseline. That's

the

baseline. Sustainability must not be the one thing that drives design. Yes, it is important, [00:2 :00] I recognize that, nor would I want to introduce a product that was not sustainable. But I do not approach a product design saying, "Well, gee, let's make this so that it has no VOCs."

No, we're gonna design the product, and then we're gonna back into that to make sure that our materials are supporting sustainability. Because without sustainability, there really, there really is no point. We don't, we don't, we don't wanna leave that footprint. But in this case, the journey for this specific product

was

that

I have been trying to find various surfaces, and my biggest challenge is, has been to find something that was

interesting

And meet all those criteria for most important for me was always flammability.

Because without flammability, ...there is no product.

There's no product on a wall without flamma- without meeting flammability. So man, I spent years... I've worked with quite a few famous companies that I'm

not

gonna name because

they're NDAs, but we worked really hard to come [00:28:00] up with that, and we spent a lot of itera- a lot of time, money, and effort.

We designed some stunning

products

They

didn't pass.

Alan Newbery, who's the CEO and founder of Pavoni Leather, an Italian brand very well known in the residential

segment,

very well unknown

in

our market,

and a company that supplies very high-end both residential interior products as well as commercial products like Bentley, Ferrari,

Maserati,

Chanel-

   : comes your

 : cars

   : you

   : Here comes the cars.

You know. What's that? Yeah, it's the cars, exactly.

Well,

you

know, he

hooked

me

on that right away. '

Cause I met him. He was introduced to me by a friend, and we met in New York. It was about four

and a

half years ago. It was a lousy, rainy day. He flew in from London. I, I took the train, and my, my journey was easier. But out

of that

idea, was we sat in a [00:29:00] coffee shop, and we just started

spitballing.

Again,

that

was

the

foundation. Mm-hmm. I didn't say to him, "I must

have this

   : product."

   : Right.

   : And that's what I've alluded to

earlier.

You,

you ...

The

best designs do not come from somebody sitting in a boardroom saying, "We need a five-base chair, and it's gotta have a moveable headrest" da, da, da. Because then you're

backing

into

   : that.

 : Yeah.

   : that. Yeah. The, the inspiration is not there. You're, you're, you're, you're giving someone an edict.

I'm

not

completely

dismissing that. Right.

I

understand that. In my mind, that's not how I work. So it took us three years to develop this.

Wow.

And when you look

at

this,

you'd

say, "

Well, It's leather on a board. It's leather on a sound-absorbing material." But we had to source just the right sound-absorbing material. it had to be completely sustainable. The leather had to have a story, a sustainability

story.

And

we spent a lot of time selecting the best leathers from his line, and then we had [00: 0:00] to design ... Together, we designed

the patterns.

Patterns are ... You know, it's not

unlike fabric-

Mm-hmm ... AJ.

People react strongly to different patterns. It so happens that with fabric, after many, my many years, we all know that circles

in

fabric sell.

Nobody knows why. I'm certain someone's written a book

about

it.

Maybe You should get

Amanda to

check

that

   : out.

 : I

   : I will. Circles

and stripes

in fabric.

 : That's

interesting So,

   : you know, we ... One of the things we did was developed a variegated stripe. Couldn't be a, ...couldn't be a every half-inch stripe. It had to be variegated, meaning

it had to ...

You had to look at it and

figure

out

what it

was doing,

 : what you're saying, I think rings so true because when I saw this pattern, and it's the Pele collection, right?

When I saw this specific pattern, I instantly was drawn to it and went, "This is it." And I built everything off of that. And that's the part of design and the [00: 1:00] passion that drives people. We had a sustainability summit yesterday in the Metropolis Sustainability Lab, and here's the truth of it. We have leaders that are really trying to do all the right things for sustainability, but half the country is also sort of fighting that.

And when you're working on projects, you don't know what the values are going to be of that client or the people working on the project or whatever. So if you lead with sustainability, it kind of puts you in a bad position if someone, it's a trigger word for someone else. Whereas if it is really beautiful design and has a gravitational pull, that is really, really important because sustainability should be fun.

We should be beautiful. It should not be when if, if I say, "Oh, Wick, I'm gonna take you to this very sustainable restaurant," the image in your head [00: 2:00] is terrible, right? We're gonna sit on straw, and we're gonna eat something on burlap, and you know, it just, that's, that's the connotation. So I love your philosophy that it is the baseline of everything you do.

You w- you wanna make sure you're doing all the right things, but that is not what you're pushing. What you're pushing is beautiful design, things that can have an emotional reaction and attraction to people, that they want to be in

this

space. They want to be

invigorated and

inspired by these products, and that's what you learn from these great designers

   : That

   : what you learn from these great designers That is what you learn from these great designers. And

you, know, when you, when you go to, Scotland, and for anybody that's ever been to Scotland, and you walk through Glasgow, and you can, you can be around Charles

Rennie Mackintosh's- Yeah

amazing... He was like the Frank Lloyd Wright of Scottish design because he designed full homes with China and, you know, everything. When you,

when he designed for

you, he designed [00:  :00] everything. when you go to, to Spain and you see Gaudí's benches that are still in use after, what? 1 0 years.

that's the design that endures. That's

what

I

get to about

foundational design. You know, when, when Charles and Ray Eames designed

the Eames chair,

their design brief basically said, "We want a chair that feels

like

an

old

baseball glove."

 : I did not know that. I did not know that. Yeah. That's

   : what they want. That's great. And

it...

And does it?

Of

course it does. Yeah. Of course it does. When Saarinen

designed the

Tulip table,

the beautiful Tulip table

that

Knoll still sells, I

mean, sit in one of those Saarinen chairs with a swivel base that sits on

a beautiful

round pedestal.

You're just enveloped. When you sit in a Womb chair

by

   : Saarinen.

  4: Mm-hmm

   : You know, when you sit in a Breuer,

a

Breuer chair.

I mean, it- those are experi- experiential types of design, but they all [00: 4:00] find their basis not in, "

Hey,

we

needed to

make

a chair."

   : Right.

   : They were artists, and they need to be recognized. And I will just address what you said about sustainability

because

I

know

that

I

am

very much a huge proponent of sustainability, and there are some wonderful people that are doing amazing things to help people like us and to help designers understand.

Because designers are drowning,

   : AJ.

   : They are drowning in what is relevant with sustainability. And it's not so much what's relevant as it is where

do they get their information

from. My God. Yeah. How many for-profit

companies

do we have?

We're not gonna go

   : do we have?

 : We're This is not

   : political. No political. No

 : but we talked about that yesterday.

And you have these young designers coming in, they only get a smidgen of sustainability training in school, and so they come in and they're starting to try and specify, and [00:  :00] they're trying to learn the firm's culture of specification, but then they start looking at all these labels and everything, and it's very confusing.

And if it looks too hard, people won't do it.

Right.

And that's, that's a problem. So- Right ... how do we simplify? How do we make it easy? How do we make sure that there's a baseline there for everyone? And that's, that's not an easy problem to

   : It's not because we all wanna design product that's gonna be relevant. We all wanna design product that's gonna fit in, and we all wanna design... We all wanna be the leaders. But the story is

to

be

the leader,

in

my mind, you have to have that discipline that says, "

I believe

in this product."

And yeah, sometimes you'll believe in a product that somebody else says, "

Yeah, I

don't

believe in that product."

But that's okay, and those products come

and go.

We all

know

that.

But the bottom

line

is

that

you

just said this.

   : Even

the designers

   : The

workers, the designers, I hate the term worker, [00:  :00] the people

in

the

workforce-

Mm-hmm

the

non-designers,

The people that show up every day that have to deal with all of this stuff coming.

The world is, um, going, undergoing

a

massive shift, and we as a, as a design community need to design products that fit in. We're not talking about safe space products or anything like that. We are talking about creating an environment, a working environment, whether it's

work

from home,

work in office, working at Google, whatever, where the design doesn't fight with

the user.

Right.

The

design

needs to support the user, and what is that? I don't know. Every workplace is different. If you go to an architect and say, "Hey, I, I want you to build my house," you have

great

ideas,

right?

That architect may come up with something completely different that you're now walking in and saying, "

Yeah,

I've... This

is it." [00:  :00]

But you came to them with a foundation, and that's what we do at Unica Veza

as

a

design

company. A designer will come to us

because we

do

an

awful lot of custom

work,

a lot.

I mean, custom work like artwork. We, we did a, just for instance, we did a 40-foot wide art installation a- back about 10 years ago for ExxonMobil

in

Houston.

They were so large. They were, had to be at a certain curve. They had to be framed. They had to be

craned

up through the 20th story-

Mm ...because they were too big to be brought through.

But the

point of

the

matter is

We executed their design vision. Multiple meetings, they wanted corporate art, but

it

had

to

do something

else,

right?

I mean, we've done products for Coca-Cola. That Coca-Cola red, ...NDAs flying

all

over the

place,

you know.

They

wanted

their bubbles- Very specific red. Yeah. Very specific

red. They wanted those bubbles coming Very specific. They wanted

   : those bubbles coming

   : up

in a [00: 8:00] very certain way, but they knew what they wanted, and we gave them what

they

wanted.

So

I think it's all about

developing the product and developing the space, working in colla- collaboration with designers and architects

who

are

our partners

and should never be dismissed.

we see a trend right now where designers are engaged

on

a

project,

and

they

are

putting thousands

of hours

in

on projects,

and

then

all

of a

sudden at the end,

there's a

spec

change.

So, you know, now you've, your

designer's been

thrown right out

the door.

Which is a problem. and I

and I think

it's

okay

...to

talk about this

   : because-

Yeah, It happens happens ...

   : I'm

never boring.

And I don't mind throwing it

out

there.

I'd be a, I'd

be

a

rotten politician

though. Um, but

this

is

a

   : problem.

It is

   : It is. You're

a designer,

right? Somebody engages

with

you.

They pay

your firm,

what, $200,000.

Your team is [00: 9:00] working 100 hours a week. The deadlines have to be hit. The bids have to go out. The GC's been chosen. The project is worth, let's say, the whole project is worth

 0

million.

Right. Let's say it's a huge building. And then at the end of the day, the GC

comes

in and

says, "

Hey,

you

know

   : what?

I'm gonna save

   : I'm gonna save you

10%."

   : Uh-huh.

   : And

he goes right to the

end and he says, "I'm gonna save

you

$  

million."

Right.

 : Right.

   : And then at that

point

 : It's game over for the designer. That's

why-

   : it is

 : In many cases it is ... I ran a design build firm where I was running contractors. We, we bought everything, and we had our people install it so I could control that.

Yeah. But you can't do that on these large projects.

You can do it for small projects.

   : So what we're seeing here now is, and I know we're kinda going off topic, but we'll-- but it's still

important. I

think it's really important

   : really

important

   : these are the

things that aren't talked about.

I think it's really

important that you have to build your relationships

with the GC

because the

GC [00:40:00] does have a design team.

 : lot of times they do, yeah.

   : so now you're dealing with multiple

levels, and you're still always trying

to

maintain

that design integrity, right? So

 : It is about the relationships. It is

   : is

relationships ......it is about

the relationships,

but

it's

always

about the

   : design Mm-hmm.

   : design. And if it ever

is

not

about

the design-

 : Game over Game

   : Game

   : over for, Game

over

for

   : me.

 : Well, and you see those projects. You walk in and you go, "This is, this is quite, this is not quite right. What, why is this so off?"

And it's because a lot of times that's what happens. Yeah. Things get value engineered and, the holistic design that was thought of didn't work. You know, sometimes sure, we have a product issue, you can't get something, and we have to sub it out and all of that, and that's, that's the nature of our business.

But when ... Like, I can't imagine what this space would look like if we couldn't have had this exact Pele design on this wall, 'cause everything went flowed off of that, right? Yeah. Everything flowed off of that, and we have all these beautiful purple [00:41:00] arches. We have this beautiful rug that you guys created for us.

We have this amazing light fixture that's an acoustical light fixture that's right above us. I mean, it all works together. It all has the same elements of circles and half circles and round, and it just makes the entire space because you have such a palette that we could pull these things from. But if one of those things get changed, then something's off.

   : Yes.

And then it's

incumbent

on us to

try to get in there sometimes and help that change, and we do that quite frequently too.

If, If, we find something's gone off the rails and we're looking for that order to come in, and they say, "Oh yeah, there's been some change," we jump right back at it,

redesign.

That's

what we

have to

   : do.

 : And

you do. We do. But that's what makes it last. And going back- Yes ... full circle to the beginning of our conversation about the great designers of the world, you know, that, that is one of the things that great designers do, and great companies like you make sure that that design intent is

delivered. [00:42:00] So I think what's so powerful about our conversation, especially being here at NeoCon, is that in a world that's constantly

pushing what's new,

the real opportunity is to understand what's true.

   : what's true. That's Absolutely right ...

   : what

 : that true design that we're looking for? So Wick, thank you. This was

such a

thoughtful

   : conversation.

Thank

   : you, AJ. It's been delightful being here.

 : And thank you to everyone here with us live at NYAFCON. If this conversation sparked something for you, share it, send it, keep going. This has been Once Upon a Project. I'm AJ Perone.

Thank you so much for listening, and a special thank you for my rockstar production team, Rob Schulte and Rachel Senatore. We are so happy to be here live from NYAFCON and can't wait to bring you our next story