Joel Krieger, Head of Creative, Content & Experience, Magic Leap

This transcript is made in part with an automated service, in some cases there may be errors.

Joel: [00:00:00] And so design using AR is just a much more natural. It’s more like interacting with real objects, just as you do in the real world. So instead of scroll, tap, click, you have infinite options, bumping and nudging and squeezing and throwing. It’s more like interacting with the real world.

Andrew: Welcome to Barriers to Entry, a design innovation podcast on the Surround Podcast Network. This is the show where we obsess over the not too distant future of the architecture, design, and creative industries. And the ideas, tools, technologies, and talent that will take us there. I’m Andrew Lane, the co founder at Digby.

And as always, I am joined by Bobby Binet, chief growth officer at the Sandow design group. Bobby, we’re coming to the end of another, uh, randomly created milestone of ours, uh, season two. How are you feeling about this moment in time, given that season one was so much less compact and so much more meandering than we’ve, we’ve managed to make?

The second spin around the sun.

Bobby: Well, I feel like Rob, Rob Schulte, executive producer of Bear Essential, would take great exception to, uh, to the randomness you just placed on season two. No, season one was the random season. Season one was meandering. There were several trips around the sun. on season two is, is, is precise season two.

Thoughtful, lots of thoughts, surgically precise, surgical. That’s the right phrasing there. But yeah, I mean, a finale of season two, I think a who’s who from a guest standpoint, we had the spring of BTE, a nice trip to, to Neocon this, this season, um, lots of talk about the sphere and Las Vegas following our, our memorable trip there during KBS.

2024, but lots to learn. And, and I’m wondering, Andrew, if there’s a particular guest that, um, for new listeners to the show, you’d encourage them to go back and hear the interview, um, a little upfront plug, if you will, for, for the season two library.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s tough. I think that the conversation that pops out to me the most, when I think back is, is Bill Mandara, um, who is CEO of Mancini Duffy love that he is not only Um, you know, the, the reluctant head of a major global architecture firm, but also a prolific artist on Spotify.

Um, you know, I loved the, the, the, the creativity and the, the various ways in which his, his mind, uh, translates into how that business flows. And I thought that was just a really well rounded and interesting conversation. But thank you for asking me to name my favorite kid, uh, as, as a man who has multiple children.

I will now ask you to do the same in podcast form. Is there one that popped out to you, Bobby? My favorite kid, you can get kid or podcast, but probably be easier for you at home. If you do podcast interesting,

Bobby: um, I will say, um, if I were to encourage folks to go back and listen to an episode from an inspirational standpoint.

And again, this isn’t my favorite. I don’t name favorites. Each each guest is has its own quality. Um, I really like to go back to the to the episode with Federico Negro from Kanoa. I think Andrew knew I was gonna name that. Yeah, I did. Um, just because that the way in which we were able to hear about his journey from we work, um Some of what I think he some of the self discovery moments he had leading global design at we work and how that led to him creating a platform specifically geared towards solving the problems that I think he felt he may have had a hand in contributing to and now serving the architecture and design industry with a new inspiration platform was really fascinating.

And then again, just being in the energy. Of neocon for that interview. So, um, lots of great guests in season two. Um, encourage everybody to go back and listen to the full catalog, but we’ve got a new guest in the guest chair today, Andrew, if I may. Um, he’s a designer with no shortage of accolades. Joel Krieger is the head of creative content and experience at magically.

He’s played a role in rolling out transformative tools at Magic Leap like Assistant Workshop, which we’ll get into today. Prior to joining the team at Magic Leap in 2020, Joel was the chief creative officer at Second Story and also held design leadership roles at Razorfish and Sapient Nitro. Throughout his career in design, Joel’s work has been featured in Fast Company, Wired, and Forbes, and he’s been recognized by organizations including the SEGD Global Design Awards, One Show, and the Webby Awards.

So welcome to BTE, Joel Krieger. How are you doing today? Hey, thanks for having me, Bobby. It’s good to be here. I have not been recognized by any Global Design Awards, the Webby Awards, which are the Oscars of the Internet. So it’s really, we’re really lucky to have you today. And we didn’t even mention your podcast Outside In.

And Joel, I think I went back and listened to several episodes of Outside In. I think storytelling is a through line throughout your career. Um, so I wonder if you can reflect it all and give a plug right up front for, uh, for some of those stories that you helped to tell, um, as, as you were in the podcast hosting chair back in [00:05:00] 2020, Outside in was

Joel: really a pandemic project with a good friend and longtime colleague, uh, Pavanayala, but it’s really kind of an inquiry into what makes transformative design, both the inner and outer work of it.

So, you know, what makes an experience really potent and can you intentionally design for this sort of ground shifting encounter? One of my favorite

Bobby: parts of the way in which that podcast is brought together is the first person storytelling and sound design, um, that leads into some, some really fascinating and in depth conversations.

Um, we also have some amazing sound design on this show. I would note that Rob Schulte, this is his cue to lay something in right here. Here we go, Rob, with the soundboard.

Beautiful.

Andrew: I can’t stop it once it starts. Yeah.

Bobby: Thank you. Thank you. That’s the mark of a professional podcast production right there. But anyway, like, let’s, let’s, let’s get into it. Um, Joel, you’ve worked with really, um, an amazing potpourri of clients over the years, museum curators, architects, experiential marketers, and kind of going through the spectrum like that.

I’m sure there’s a fair bit of challenges that you encounter from a code switching standpoint. In a really exciting way. So I’d love to understand, um, what are some of those challenges that you’ve encountered and the way in which from a creative standpoint, you’ve been able to kind of face them and come up with really creative solutions.

The one that probably stretched me the

Joel: most was actually the last major project I did, um, at Second Story before coming to Magic Leap, which was a massive museum redesign in Melbourne called, uh, the Australian Center for the Moving Image. And I think it was really the number, the sheer number of stakeholders.

Involved in the scale of the project, uh, and also the travel required. I mean, I was back and forth to Australia quite a bit, so I would say that project almost broke me, but I feel like I learned so much and, and emerged on the other end with a capacity to take on way bigger challenges than I ever had before.

Bobby: As you’re in the midst of a project and you’re like, Oh man, I think I’m in over my head. I don’t know how I’m going to get past this, this kind of moment. Maybe it’s, you know, it’s, it’s imposter syndrome. Maybe it’s, I just don’t have this, the skill, either the skill set or the wherewithal or the time or, or the, the supporting cast.

How do you, from a creative standpoint, get past that hurdle?

Joel: Well, I think a lot

Bobby: of

Joel: it has to do with shifting your perspective because when I think on the times that I’ve been stuck on a big epic project like this, it often has to do with an attachment to how I want it to end up. You know, you often have these preconceived notions about, man, like I can just see it in my mind’s eye.

This is going to be the best project ever. It’s going to be the marquee project in my portfolio. It’s going to win all these awards. And. You know, it never ends up how you initially imagined it. And so there’s this quality of being in response and relationship to the unfolding happenings of a, of a big project like that, especially one that goes multi year where you just have to, you have to slide into a state where you’re, where you’re just flowing with things.

And when things aren’t flowing, that’s a cue for me to like stop and zoom out and just kind of reflect on my interstate and how that’s affecting what I’m bringing to the project.

Andrew: That idea of, you know, being in over your head and not letting anyone know. I always recall I used to work in agency, um, as well.

And one of our global leadership things, they put up a quote from Kurt Vonnegut that all paraphrase, but, um, basically that, you know, we need to be in a business where we’re comfortable jumping off cliffs and knowing we need to grow wings on the way down. Such a good quote. Ru really reminds me of that, that sentiment.

You know, another thing that we wanted to really touch on on though, Joel is, um, you know, you are a fellow at the Royal Society of Arts and you have a real personal calling to leave earth a better place than you found it, as I believe is put on your own site. What were some of the things like through all of these massive projects that you’ve worked on in your history that really prompted that and led you to having that kind of a mission in your work?

I think we

Joel: kind of all hear this little voice to some extent and it’s It’s easy to tune it out because the modern world is very noisy and chaotic, but I think we all have this sense that something’s not quite right, you know? And if you follow that voice down the rabbit hole, um, inevitably you start to ask a lot of questions, trying to get at the source of this wrongness and you start to reflect.

Maybe upon why it is that you’re really here. And so for me, if I had to pinpoint an exact moment, it would probably be somewhere around 2014 or so. And it had nothing to do with climate, but rather coming to the realization that we’re in a mass extinction event and encountering, uh, the concept of shifting baseline syndrome.

Some people call it ecological [00:10:00] amnesia, where you realize that, um, what we think of as normal, pristine nature in terms of. like the abundance of plant and animal life is actually in an incredibly degraded state. Um, so this is not normal. And of course, this can be a very depressing thing to explore if you choose to really look at it.

But on the positive side, there’s no growth, um, without friction. And some people kind of look at this ecological meta crisis as an opportunity for humans to grow into their rightful role as a species, which kind of becoming planetary stewards in a sense.

Andrew: Yeah, this came up on a previous episode in this season, but, um, the concept that waste is manmade, like in nature, there is no waste.

And so it’s a concept that we’ve created over time. So it’s always exciting to hear, you know, guests and well, anyone who’s focused on, on these kinds of, uh, on these kinds of areas and shifting our focus, let’s navigate ourselves over to this world of AR and of, of wearables. We’d love to know. Uh, and obviously, you know, you work at Magic Leap, um, so one of the leaders in the space.

So you probably have the answer from the company, uh, spokesperson book, but we, we just love to know, you know, how long, like where, where did your belief in wearable start? Have you always believed in it? What led you to kind of get to where you are today being on the leading edge of this space?

Joel: So believe it or not, I’m not really an early adopter of technology.

I know that may be shocking, but I didn’t get an Apple watch until very recently. And it was only because I needed it for a trail marathon. I was going to do, um, I would say I have a healthy amount of skepticism, which I suppose is a helpful reality check, especially in a culture that worships technology and is kind of always bypassing the present for the future.

Um, but despite this, uh, for most of my career, I found myself working on what I’d call pioneer work, where we’re essentially working with emerging technology. We’re trying to figure things out. The rules have not yet been written and I find that kind of environment full of adventure and excitement. And, you know, wearables to me have seemed inevitable.

It’s just. A more accessible and kind of intuitive way to use technology. Uh, but, but when things hit critical mass and when they take off is always hard to predict, I think for me, um, when I first put on a magically too, I had this moment of feeling like, you know, Oh, wow, like we’re, we’re finally here. And I think it was a combination of things.

It was between the, the, the very large field of view, the clarity of the image and the lightness of the device. It was kind of cleared to me in a way that it hadn’t been before. And probably more of a feeling than anything else that this technology is going to change everything.

Andrew: You mentioned that, that, Oh, wow.

We’re finally here moment. Where do you think we are in the overall adoption curve of. Different types of wearable technology.

Joel: Yeah, it’s still early days. I reckon we’re somewhere towards the beginning of the early adopter phase. And it’s a bit gray because when you look at XR as a category, you know, VR is well ahead of AR in terms of adoption, but they both influence each other.

And then you have video pass through like the Apple vision pro, which kind of muddies the water because it’s, it’s kind of in between VR and AR. Um, but optical see through AR, which is what magic leap is. Um, is getting a lot of traction in key areas. Um, like I’m really interested in the learning and development and training, for example, um, but there’s just so many use cases being explored and some of these are just further along or maybe more ready for this than others.

So. You know, it’s it’s like it’s being adopted at different levels based on the specific use case and industry. I’d say

Bobby: as somebody who’s like a skeptic and your perspective on so many things is obviously go deep, right? Like, you know, you’re just talking about your story from 2014. And yet you’re on the cutting edge in this technology.

Andrew asked about the wearable standpoint. You must be in circles Uh, from a social standpoint, from a familial standpoint with folks who inquire about your career, who aren’t as familiar with wearables, especially like AR and, you know, goggles. So I’m just wondering like in layman’s terms, how you explain to somebody the sensation of, you know, putting on goggles and experiencing.

You know, that sort of moment, that aha moment that you had other than saying, put them on and see for yourself, or is it just put them on and see for yourself? It’s really interesting because

Joel: you, you were really kind of making a huge, this is a huge shift here. So you’re, you’re used to working with digital things on these flat glowing rectangles, and then all of a sudden you see.

This virtual stuff spatially integrated with your real [00:15:00] world. And it’s a really different, I mean, it’s like this separation, this boundary is completely obliterated for all intents and purposes. It looks like holograms. I mean, it looks like, and the fidelity of these images, I mean, some of these images almost feel real.

I mean, I remember a project we did where, um, you know, we offloaded the, the, the compute of the, of the, the puck that comes with the device to a remote rendering station. So you have. Like massive amounts of processing power. Um, and, uh, we had this car and we had kind of a real time map of the, of the environment.

So the reflection in the car paint would change based on where you were standing around it. And it was almost. Indiscernible from reality. I mean, so there, there’s a, there’s definitely kind of a spectrum here of the level of fidelity you can achieve, but it really, the virtual world and the physical world start to blend.

And it’s only, you know, who knows, man, this is going to be a wild ride. Who knows where it’s going to go, but. You know, I think that it’s kind of an inevitable trajectory is that more and more of our interactions with computers are going to be kind of a native 3d space, and it’s going to be a lot more natural way to interact with things.

Andrew: We’ve talked on the pod in, in really simple terms about the idea of the unflattening of the internet. And obviously, you know, that’s the earliest way to start to understand the fact that we’ve had this, what historically might end up being a 30 year blip where we figured out how to flatten everything down to 2d so that you could scroll down a webpage and have an experience, but we might be jumping back into where we’ve been throughout the course of human history, which is in full 3d experiences.

I’m going to call back to season one, Bobby. Hmm. Um, we had a guest, Greg Lindsey, um, who’s, uh, among many other things, uh, he’s a tech fellow at Cornell university, and he studies the blending of the physical and digital worlds and the impact on urban spaces. Speaking about Pokemon go, um, that’s a, was a popular example in that pod.

Where are you, you know, based on your last response, seeing the opportunities and the challenges and the exciting possibilities of where these sort of blending of physical and digital realities together, like where can that start to take us as we see. Um, the digital world continued to unflatten.

Joel: Yeah, I don’t know.

I mean, I, I would probably answer that question by going specifically and looking at, at spatial design practitioners. So, you know, any kind of architect or designer doing 3D work, um, and there are lots of different types of these folks, you know, for so long, we’ve all been looking at representations of 3D things on 2D screens.

And so our work with computers has been all about trying to design 3d things on these flat, flat glowing rectangles. And so now, you know, now you have the shift and we’re moving from screens to spatial and where they are specifically, you have all these old limitations dissolving, and it’s giving way to a much more immersive way to design where you do it at scale, you do it in true three dimensional space.

Um, and there are a couple of reasons why this matters for one, this is just a more intuitive way to interact with computers. So if you think about how we interact with 2d screens, you know, you’re scrolling, you’re tapping, you’re clicking, and this is very limiting and it doesn’t make the most of how dynamic our human bodies are.

And so design using AR is just a much more natural. It’s more like interacting with real objects. Just as you do in the real world. So instead of scroll, tap, click, you have infinite options, bumping and nudging and squeezing and throwing. It’s more like interacting with the real world. Another reason you could think about how it feels, and we’re doing this right now.

So we’re kind of tethered to our laptops or desktop workstation. So you’re essentially chained to your desk and your head is in a fixed position. We’re staring at our monitors. Our creativity is, is really restricted. And there are plenty of studies that show we’re at our most creative when we’re up and moving around.

And so there’s this unbounded free range quality. I feel when designing an AR, I can, I can get into flow state faster. I can stay lost in it for much longer. And I think a big part of that is because I do have this. I’m incredible freedom of movement. It’s funny. Andrew

Bobby: talked about a tech fellow from Cornell and Pokemon go tend to go back to my daughters on this podcast and they’re on school break right now.

We’re recording in the summer and, um, the way in which they interact with computers is already a little bit less two dimensional, you know, they’re, they’re using touchscreen devices and I wonder where they’ll be at in two or three years, if, if it’ll just be a different level of interaction, how far away are we from like an immersive standpoint to kind of like.

[00:20:00] Getting into school systems and allowing kids to sort of experience that way. You touched on VR earlier, Joel. I’m wondering from a user perspective, how do you think of things between AR versus VR? Because I think, I think you feel more strongly about the power and opportunity with augmented reality as opposed to virtual reality.

Joel: Yeah. AR and VR, they get bundled together a lot, but they’re actually quite different. And, um, you know, it gets even more confusing with things like the Apple vision pro that are, as I said before, kind of in between. So it’s not really AR, but it’s something called pass through VR, which shows a video feed of your surroundings with digital content in it.

So you’re not really seeing the physical world. Um, your experience of reality is kind of Is fully mediated by a screen. Um, and so with VR, I like to think about it, like you’re wearing a digital blindfold. So you’re shut off from the real world. Uh, but you’re fully immersed in this digital one and it’s very much a solo experience.

You know, it kind of closes us off from others, whereas. You know, AR, and this is what I like about it. It keeps us grounded. You know, it keeps us connected to the real places we’re in and the other people who are there with us. So for that reason, it’s much more capable of enabling collaborative experiences.

And honestly, this is just where I like to play. And, you know, it’s not to say that, you know, VR is bad, all these different XR devices on the spectrum have their place, um, and have different use cases that they excel at, but there are just a lot of things I couldn’t imagine doing in any kind of VR device.

So scenarios where you need, uh, complete full visibility, you need situational awareness and the ability to move around freely like a site walk through or a collaborative design session for those types of things. I, I really need to be in AR.

Bobby: If I’m going to think about like, um, My parents, I’m thinking about my dad in particular.

He’s, he’s, you know, he’s got the Oculus device, throws it on in his living room and he’s on a, you know, a really badly rendered roller coaster and everyone’s laughing at him in the living room and he doesn’t know why people are laughing at him. He’s probably interpreting magic leap goggles as being the same thing as that.

You don’t see that your surroundings and you’re in a living room and you’re You’re the YouTube viral video of the guy falling over his coffee table. Do you think that affects, I guess this question, Joel and Andrew, both of you, do you think that affects like adoption from an AR standpoint that people are envisioning this solo experience where you’re at the family party and you’re playing a video game with a headset on, as opposed to having a more kind of like collaborative in some instances, utilitarian or other instances, you know, experiential sort of moment.

Is VR bad PR for AR is what I was getting at.

Joel: Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. Uh, you know, I think that definitely the impression kind of, uh, muddies the waters. People are, people are just more familiar with VR devices. Part of that is because they’re way cheaper. And, um, You know, I think that seems to me like AR is getting more traction in kind of the more pragmatic utilitarian use cases, like helping somebody do a job eventually that will totally migrate over into the commercial space as well.

It’s just, I don’t think, I don’t think people have enough awareness of what’s possible in the difference. And that’s okay. I mean, it’s the rising tide lifts all boats. And, you know, I think that we’re, we’re still in this early phase where everything’s trying to find its place. And, you know, so there will be a place on the spectrum for all these sorts of devices.

And I, what do you think, Andrew?

Andrew: Well, I think Bobby needs to get writing his, uh, his guest spot for the verge is VR, bad PR for AR. Um, but yeah, I mean, I agree with you a hundred percent, Joel, about the height, uh, about the rising tide. Um, I think that, you know, back to Bobby’s, uh, alliteration, there is no such thing as bad PR, uh, in a lot of circles, but I think that, you know, Narratives at a, at a mass level always, um, succeed when they’re deadly simple.

And the dead simple narrative right now is that, you know, you don’t want to put goggles on because of X, Y, or Z. Uh, reason, uh, you know, I follow a prognosticator, Scott Galloway, who calls goggles a prophylactic for your face. He says, there’s no better way to not attract members of the opposite sex than put goggles on your head.

And why would young people want to do that? And, you know, that’s. That’s a strong message. It gets on the Instagram reels. Um, it gets out there. And so that’s something you’ve got to fight against when we’re looking at that. But I think this is probably a good opportunity for us to dovetail a little bit into collaborative design, obviously a design audience for our podcasts and something that’s really a core part to the work that you’re doing, Joel, can you talk a little bit about assist and in 2023 and workshop in 2024, sort of how those projects have.

Really opened eyes to what’s possible when we start thinking about these kinds of collaborative spatial design

Joel: opportunities. So we tried to [00:25:00] think about these two applications, like building these evergreen experience structures rather than a specific industry solution. Um, and so the whole idea is to make it as easy as possible for as many people as possible.

So a very wide range of jobs and use cases to get their toe in the water where they are and see how it could affect their business. Uh, so assist is kind of a UX paradigm for when you have one magically too, and you want to collaborate with someone else who’s in a different. Remote location and they don’t have a device.

They only have a computer and workshop is for when you have a team of people with magically twos so and they could all be together in the same room. They could all be in remote different locations or any combination they’re in. So in a way, they’re both exploring different angles for how AR can augment our ability to collaborate and work better together.

And so like assist is designed around the primacy of a device where trying to do a task, you know, let’s say I’m, I’m trying to repair a bike and there’s tools and there’s parts and there’s instructions and there’s assistance, like having an expert over my shoulder. So that’s a lot of human factor stuff to think about.

Whereas workshop is designed around the dynamics of group collaboration. Um, so teams and what, while workshop is. Useful for many kinds of team activities. We’ve noticed that anyone who would fit into that kind of label of spatial design practitioners. So people who are used to thinking and working in 3d, they seem to find an extra level of value there.

So like architects, landscape, architects, designers, interior designers, um, and also people on the build side as well. So people like fabricators and developers.

Bobby: What’s been the response from the architecture and design community? I mean, do, do they feel as though this is sort of a Eureka moment and are you getting the type of user feedback, ultimately real world kind of in the moment, Hey, this is like feature set.

New new feature development requests that you’re really hoping from a community that, like you said, maybe this isn’t exactly maybe assist and workshop weren’t specifically developed for this for these users. But this ends up being a core user type ultimately. So initial feedback and sort of like contribution to feature development ultimately.

Joel: Yeah. That, I mean, the response has been very encouraging so far. I mean, and that’s kind of the, the value of building something that’s a little more generic and evergreen and looking for the signals, you know, where does it hit and not being attached to like, Oh, we’re going to make a thing to solve this one problem for this one industry.

And so. With workshop, you know, the starting premises, let’s, let’s really see what we can do with collaboration in general. And there are lots of, you know, every sort of industry has collaborative team activities. That’s just a thing with modern work. But once we had a beta version of workshop, we partnered with, uh, this amazing design studio in New York called hush, who make these.

Amazing interactive architectural installations. And they’re often inside corporate spaces and they used workshop during the course of a project for this new life sciences building, um, called the Helix in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and they used it for all sorts of things. They used it for concepting, uh, building virtual prototypes and iterating on them.

And then, um, towards the end, we even rented out a massive warehouse to have enough space to, to do an at scale, immersive design review. So some of these installations are just massive. Um, so they, they had their clients over and walked them through the designs. And it was really amazing to witness how effective this was.

I mean, you know, these, these. These folks had been seeing these ideas and designs take shape, um, on screens and presentations for months, but to be able to like step inside it and walk around and to see their response, it’s pretty incredible. So I would say that in terms of specifics, you know, besides. You know, hearing that this is a much more fun way to work.

We’re also getting a lot of feedback around the business value. So how this saves money, for example, in that you don’t need to do any physical prototypes. You can do all that work virtually. Um, and how this saves time, which is the big one. So fewer iterative cycles are required. To address client feedback.

And I think part of why that is, is you’re able to take your vision out of your head, place it in the room and invite your clients to step inside of it with you. And it’s as if it had already been built and suddenly you don’t, you don’t have to convince them. You’re not pitching them. They believe because they see it for themselves.

They know it’s going to work.

Bobby: There’s a really outstanding case study video that, um, if I’m going to steal your line, Andrew, we’ll put show notes.

Andrew: Yeah. I was just going to say, we’ll put all this stuff in the show notes and then thanks for the shout out or call back to season one as well. Cause we actually had David Schwartz from hush on the podcast last [00:30:00] year.

Yeah. David’s awesome.

Bobby: Yeah. Does that become now a, um, tool now that David and the Hush team use from a, from a client feedback, client crit standpoint when he’s working with, uh, you know, in that early project phase, uh, development process with his team.

Joel: Yeah. My understanding is that they’re, they’re continuing to use it.

So this has kind of been one of those things where we, you know, we, we helped them get up and running with it, kind of showed them how to use it and they saw enough value to kind of make it a part of their process. So, yeah, we’ve, we’ve, Kind of become, uh, I would say decent friends through this process.

And so it’s kind of nice to just watch this evolution take place. I mean, and, and, you know, it is like, like we said, this it’s the early adopters, it’s the people like David at hush and Eric who are curious and they’re always trying to, you know, Be reflective about their process and what are ways that we can change it and make it better.

Um, and I think these are the folks that are going to take us to that next level of the adoption curve.

Andrew: We talked about this a lot when we had David on, and I’m really curious to ask you about it now from a talent standpoint, like what are the kind of brains that you need to bring together to design?

Products like this, when the workflow and the human collaboration is so at the core, but yet at the same time, there’s a really powerful technology layer sitting on top. Like, what does that, what does that collaboration like? And who are the people that you bring to the table to really hone in and refine that?

Joel: Yeah, it’s a very interdisciplinary team. So we mentioned before I was at Magic Leap, I was at Second Story, which was a company not too dissimilar from Hush, in that we were, you know, doing, designing interactive, um, kind of spaces. And what I realized was, you know, that work was all about embedding technology into the built environment, but it’s interactive spaces and Magic Leap is.

Still interactive spaces, except instead of the tech being embedded in the space, you’re wearing it. And so what I found is that the folks who already are used to thinking and ideating in 3d, like I’ve hired a lot of folks from, from that second story scene, they tend to do really well here. And the technology differences are not the hurdle.

It’s the it’s the way of thinking and seeing, you know, because we’re not designing flat mobile apps here. We’re designing something that has to account for all these different variables to pull off something like this. There are so many different specialists that you have to get. And you got to find a way to get them all working together.

And often these specialists come from very different backgrounds where they don’t have the same vernacular, they don’t speak the same language. So creating that kind of culture and communication flow is really important. But yeah, I’d say we have folks from video game backgrounds, from more proper physical design backgrounds, like, like architecture.

We haven’t had a lot, have a lot of folks from kind of the Hollywood movie scene, especially in the visual effects. Uh, a lot of folks doing, uh, deep, deep learning and. And kind of the AI side of things as well. A lot of people don’t realize this, but the Magic Leap 2 is not just, you know, placing content in the field of view.

There’s an awareness. There’s like over 18 cameras and sensors in this thing. And so there’s a, there’s an awareness of your space. And so we’re thinking about that as well. And that’s just another, another suite of people we need to bring on the team.

Bobby: We often look forward on the show, but I’d love for us to just hit the rewind button for a second, Joel.

You’re coming off of that massive project at Second Story. You’re beginning your career at Magic Leap in terms of your skepticism is probably the wrong word, but I think you said earlier you wouldn’t necessarily classify yourself as an early adopter of technology from a design development standpoint, from as it relates to the solutions that you’ve led and contributed to at Magic Leap is the direction you’ve gone from and Magic Leap is gone.

In terms of what you’ve built in the last four years, where are you envisioned taking things when you joined the company?

Joel: Well, it’s honestly, I had no expectations for where this would go when I joined. And it’s been quite a ride with lots of pivots. And we’ve had to be very adaptive and nimble based on what we learn along the way.

So for example, we were just talking about workshop, you know, the feedback from the. The community has kind of changed the trajectory of the application altogether. So it was originally concepted around a tabletop scale or room scale group work. But what we found was that at scale design review scenario was such a huge signal and there’s so much value there that, you know, we’re leaning into, okay, well, what features are going to make that easier to do?

But yeah, I think. There’s definitely this theme of kind of trying to think about these projects, like, um, almost like a Venn diagram, you know, and so like, you’re, you have like one circle where it’s all the stuff that the project requires, and then it’s another circle where there’s, you know, maybe things of greater meaning and significance and just things that you’re personally curious about.

And I find myself. Trying to find the overlap between those two and kind of nudge the project or bend the arc of projects in certain directions. So for example, you know, at the beginning we were [00:35:00] talking about the ecological crisis and you know, how, how you can reconcile these two very different worlds.

Andrew: We

Joel: had, um, the, the first app for magically too, that we created was, um, was called wildfire and it was. meant to be about data visualization. So, you know, when, when data is more than just a number and it’s no longer trapped inside of a screen, information becomes, uh, spatially coherent and what can you do with this?

Um, so the nudge on one level is that we unfolded this project, which didn’t have to be about wildfire. We unfolded it under the concept of something environmentally relevant, which was. Wildfire prevention training, and then also like exploring real time emergency response, but on a second level, and I think this is more interesting is that this project hints at other adjacent use cases where we’re exploring the possibility of a tool like this to help people see and think in terms of living systems.

So like watershed management or ecosystems restoration. And so in a way, this app function on many levels, it definitely functioned for the business, but it also became. A powerful demonstration for how you can circle up with a group of people, your team and become really one mind standing around this, this spatial data to solve problems and also imagine plausible futures.

So then you could use this project in conversations, for example, in the regenerative scene where it’s like a provocation, you know, could this tool be used to help local communities come together, um, and better manage their commons. So it’s just kind of trying to stay aware and nimble and find that sweet spot in between those two circles.

Bobby: Yeah, it’s, I mean, it’s an awesome place to be in that you’re able to continue to harken back to that, that kind of mission driven mindset you have about your career and leverage that in, in, in what manifested as. A seminal product that was released at, uh, for Magic Leap 2.

Andrew: And amazing that you can iterate so well with the way you’ve built the product.

So that when you hear these use cases coming out from your users, that you can adapt and make sure that you take advantage. This is, it’s been a great conversation, Joel. Um, we have a couple of, uh, standard opportunities that we, uh, we run through at the end of every episode with every guest and that always kicks off with.

Bobby: Playing the hits. Yeah. We always like to allow our guests to plug anything they’re up to Jill, personally or professionally. So, so what do you want to share with our listeners?

Joel: Well, you mentioned the podcast at the beginning, so I don’t have any new projects, um, on the horizon, so I guess I’ll plug that, but it’s been a while since we’ve done a new episode.

But, uh, for the listeners who are interested in digging into some design insights from, I would say some very unexpected places, uh, you could check that out. It’s outside in podcast.

Andrew: org. We’ll be sure to link it in the show notes, along with some of those videos that you shared with us of the, of the products, um, that we just spoke through.

The other thing we always like to ask Joel at the end is, is there any advice Or resources you’d share with a listener out there who’s looking to build their innovation muscle. And, you know, maybe they’ve been victim of the, uh, bad PR for AR. What would you share with them? Uh, just to, to take a look at, to better understand the space and where it has the potential to be going.

Joel: So innovation is all about, you know, doing something new and our, our culture is obsessed with the new. So I like to use a cooking analogy. So if you’re trying to cook something and if you keep working with the same ingredients. And especially if you’re using the same ingredients that everyone else is, your chances of truly innovating of doing something new are actually very limited even before you start.

But if you switch up your ingredients, um, and, and if you do it with some really unusual suspects, well now you’ve created the right conditions in which to come up with something new. So I think that’s why as a designer, not just AR, this is just as a designer. Um, it’s really important to step off the beaten path and explore the margins.

And I think it’s always so interesting to see how these outside influences show up in your work and they show up in very unexpected ways. Um, and so for me, this has taken the shape of doing lots of online courses in a somewhat distant, but kind of adjacent fields. And also, you know, mentioned a Joshua tree.

I recently completed an in person intensive in the wilderness of Joshua tree with animus Valley Institute, which was mind blowing. I’m about to take a permaculture design course. And so, you know, I just, I find myself seeking out these experiences that challenge my worldview and in turn, that. I find that kind of enriches my ability to think differently and bring another level of value to my work.

That’s

Bobby: fantastic advice. Not just for the listeners. Truly, not just for the listeners. I think for anybody in a creative organization. Um, and also for my daughters because they eat the same food for dinner every night. They’re cooking with the same ingredients. Bobby, never underestimate the power of a little hot sauce.

[00:40:00] That’s right. Joel, this is really fantastic. Uh, great advice. Um, amazing to hear about the Magic Leap roadmap, um, and to learn about your career, uh, and to learn about your perspectives on spatial design, uh, and really where we’re headed from, from an immersion and, and AR standpoint. Thanks for joining us today.

Yeah. Thanks for having me guys.

Andrew: Yeah, really, really exciting stuff and a lot of great resources to share with the listeners too. So thank you so much. It was great. Yeah. Bobby, do you want to take us home?

Bobby: Yeah, sure. As always, we’d like to extend the biggest thank you to the Barriers to Entry production team for season two, our producer Rob Schulte and everyone else back at the studio by Sandow Podcave.

Barriers to Entry is part of the Surround podcast network. Make sure you go to the Surround podcast. S dot com that’s podcasts with an S smash the follow button and join us next season as we continue to break down the barriers to entry.

Joel: And I’d never done a marathon before I, I, but you know, I just figured, well, if we’re going to do this, let’s go all the way, I’m not doing another one. And your, your,

Andrew: your triathlon is next month or

Bobby: taking a break. I did a marathon, like, uh, I don’t know, it was like 10 years ago and I Across the finish line.

I was like, yeah, I was the same way. Never again. Why did I just do that?