Is design for everyone?

This transcript was made in part by an automated service. In some cases there may be errors. 

Faraz: [00:00:00]Welcome to sense of space, a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with. I’m Faraz Shah.

Ella: And I’m Ella Hazzard. How you doing today, frozz?

Faraz: I’m doing really well. Now we should record the other one.

Ella: Okay, let’s do that welcome to sense of space a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with I’m Ella Hazzard

Faraz: And I’m Farah Shah. How are you today?

Ella: I’m very well. Thank you for asking. How are you for us?

Faraz: Doing great. We’re still doing well.

Ella: Okay,

Faraz: there was some life stuff that happened this week. Even though we’re, this isn’t a live show, um, it’s still relevant. This content is evergreen and always relevant. but my son, is a freshman in college now, and we dropped him off at school.

And I was having this really kind of crazy nostalgia trip. My son is going to Purdue, which is where I graduated from. Um, he’s going into industrial design, which is the program that I went to. And my professor is still the professor there. Um, what’s up Steve. And so it was this kind of really interesting experience where he’s actually staying in the dorm that’s attached to dorm building that I was stayed in when I was a freshman.

Ella: Woah. Ugh.

Faraz: and I swear to God, they all still look the same, uh, at least in the dorm rooms and still smell the same,

Ella: I was gonna ask, I don’t know why that’s, why is that important but it is, right?

Faraz: yeah, well, if you listen to our, uh, episode about a vibe, like the smell is part of it.

Ella: Yeah, sure.

Faraz: but, uh, you know, it just got me thinking a lot about not just the experience of going to school, but particularly the experience of some of these design programs. you know, this is like a studio major.

You spend a lot of time with a relatively small group of people. By the time you get to like your junior and senior year, it’s all the same folks. Um, and you’re in this space working together like crazy. I guessing this is similar to what you experienced Ella.

Ella: Yeah, I would say.

Faraz: Is that something that we are lacking in the workplace? Like in, in what we do on a day to day basis, it’s so different at times from what we had in school and maybe that wasn’t always the best, but

Ella: In the sense of like studio camaraderie and like collaboration and Well, I guess that would require us to all be back in the office or like in a physical space for periods of time which I don’t know how I feel about that, but Um, yeah, I think well first can I back up a step and just ask you how you’re feeling?

I mean, you don’t have to share too much but like That’s a pretty major thing. Like, how are you?

Faraz: I’m doing all right. It was, uh, It was a bit of a tough moment because, our family unit’s pretty close, right? So, um, my son and then my daughter, we’re all really close knit family. So like, my wife and I, we’re all super like tight knit cluster. We all hang out together, spend a lot of time together. So having, you know, One of us not around all the time is actually kind of a big deal.

Like the house is so much quieter. I was telling, um, our associate producer, Patricia about this the other day. It’s like, you don’t realize how many lasts that you had

Ella: yep,

Faraz: before they’re already done.

Ella: I think that’s very true and the whole dynamic changes but at the same time you also get a bunch of firsts too, right with all the last are the first like you can’t have one without the

Faraz: Yeah,

Ella: like the actual change for me is never the hardest part. The hard part is before change, like the anticipation of said change is like the worst.

Faraz: but there’s so much cool stuff ahead of him. And it got I was so excited about that experience of going back to his school and being the guest lecturer that was not invited. And like living vicariously through him

Ella: it would be so cool to like follow like you you’ve made this person so you’ve known this person their entire lives But it would be interesting to sort of follow the trajectory or to pay attention to this maybe into the next season to kind of understand like how His thoughts about the world and sort of design and whatever change as like

a function of like this kind of education I’m, very curious about that.

Faraz: Yeah, I think it’ll be interesting and I’m gonna have to see too if the nostalgia that I have for the studio experience Will match his present and reality or is it like one of those things where you just look back on like, oh the friendships The shenanigans that ended up creating that chemistry, you know and it you know ended up making I think a better product or work product that came out of those classes, but

Ella: Sure, I think that’s fair. I think it’s also like a time in life where you’re incredibly like vulnerable, right? Like everything is new Like everything you thought about who you were your identity like it all shifts and you have in some ways like an opportunity But at the same time it’s like it’s scary and hard and like everybody but everybody’s kind of going through that all at the same Time and so it’s a [00:05:00] ripe period of time for you to make new connections and kind of test and figure out who you are

Faraz: Do you look back at your studio experience with a positive sense of nostalgia or is it trauma?

Ella: mixed bag, right? Like, I think a lot of my college education, like.

Just kind of teaching us that like hard equals good and I,

Faraz: Like the struggle.

Ella: struggle.

is important to success And I don’t know that I buy that from like a sort of monetary standpoint But I’m from like the emotional side of things like hard things do Usually results in better stronger like relationship to self to others work like the more you put yourself into something and allow yourself to be better You know, kind of hurt by something in a way, you know what I mean?

Like, doing good things is hard sometimes. Sometimes it’s easy, but very rarely for me anyway, and I like, I don’t, I don’t know how to feel about that little struggle mentality or that like art, like we call the artist mentality, but I, I, I don’t want that to, I don’t want to support that narrative, but there is some truth to it maybe,

Faraz: Yeah, it’s a challenge. But you know, I look back at even like, what we do sometimes in the workplace right now. Yeah, we’ve got a few times a year where it’s just absolutely nuts.

Ella: mm hmm.

Faraz: And I think in the moment, I’m like, wow, two o’clock, three o’clock in the morning, I should not be seeing this, for work,

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: at the same time, you know, you’re hanging out with your coworkers, most of the time it’s people you like, um, and like, so it’s, it’s all of that, like after hours kind of friendship that comes out and then like, you end up building these stronger relationships because you were all kind of hustling and struggling.

to work on this one kind of creative act.

Ella: I also kind of wonder if it’s like there’s some mentality where if you kind of resign yourself to the fact that you’re going to be in a space together for a long time and it kind of is what it is, that it takes some of the pressure off of each interaction and like when you’re so tired and like you’re kind of being silly and like you’re kind of punch, punch drunk, right?

Like just like some of those like really late, late hours, wee hours, studio moments are great. Do you consider yourself like a morning person or an you? You’re a night. Are you a night owl?

Faraz: Well, these days I’m like a mid afternoon person.

Ella: Like, well, how about this, if you

Faraz: Like I’m tired and I don’t want to stay up late. And I definitely don’t want to get up in the morning. Yeah,

Ella: is like two to 4:00 PM Like,

Faraz: we’re good.

Ella: but no, but like if, okay, if work were not a thing, I feel like you didn’t have to work for Monday. Like what hours of the day would

you

choose? Like what?

Faraz: night.

Ella: I

Faraz: Yeah, for sure.

Ella: So was Studio, like, did that work for you because that was like kind of your biological

Faraz: Yeah, that just worked with my, my rhythm, but it was one of those things too, where, I had my son when I was a junior in college,

Ella: Whoa.

Faraz: which, yeah, word of advice for any of our podcast listeners. Don’t have kids in college.

Ella: I totally get that. Maybe, maybe in sort of pivoting to our topic for today, let’s, let’s look at it through the lens of like you as a designer and a parent and your kid kind of entering a burgeoning design career, The question we wanted to ask ourselves is, is design for everyone?

And we were struggling with a few different sort of topics here, which is like, are there spaces for everyone? Or who does design include versus who does it exclude? And so maybe using that as a lens, I’m going to ask you, designer Faraz Shah, and then also parent Faraz Shah, like, what do you feel like has changed in your lifetime, um, or your design career?

Relative to this topic and what do you hope for for your kid?

Faraz: I think that the conversation Looks and sounds different than what it did whenever I entered into, I think both design education, but then also like in the working profession. I think that there’s a lot more of a concerted effort to make diverse voices and experiences part of the design process. And I think that that has actually a really direct effect on the output of the design process, right?

Knowing that that’s even changed over the last however many years I’ve been been working, and hopefully that cascades out to like kind of the design education part of this that by the time my son graduates and is in the workforce. That’ll be that much more, I think, part of the the conversation that it’s just natural that the, you know, we’re talking about this I think in our, our episode we’re talking about the vibe of a space or the elements of a vibe.

It’s that intentionality and the awareness, right? Of asking yourself questions about who you’re serving. Um, what are those elements of a space and all the other senses that you have to activate to create something that it makes it welcoming or, you know, helps with productivity that all of that just as part of the natural [00:10:00] conversation.

Ella: I’m trying to think about sort of the nature of inclusivity as far as kids. Like, are, are we, are, are kids these days more accepting of difference or is this all just kind of the same and like happening in a different. way?

Like, is it happening? Are we like, you know, putting on a face of inclusivity and like secretly bullying each other over social media? Or like, what, what’s happening? Do you think, like, I’m not a parent, so I have no idea.

Faraz: I hope it’s better, but I think it may just be different. Yeah. And this is, you know, I think like, we’re us as designers and kind of in the architecture, the interior design, the product design space. That’s where I think it gets to, to be almost like responsibility of taking inclusivity to into our hands to make sure like even if our clients maybe aren’t at that level that where they’re asking those questions like there’s a responsibility for us to be able to educate our clients and not maybe educate doesn’t not in the sense of it being um looking down upon our clients but more a guide or bringing somebody else along on the journey

Ella: yep,

Faraz: and maybe we need to actually define or maybe not define but we need to at least talk about what inclusivity means for Spaces.

Like what does it mean to you? I’m going to put you on the spot.

Ella: fine, go ahead, you do that. Um, I, well, first of all, like, I’m struggling with, I don’t quite understand what’s happening in general. Like, for the last few years, like, DEI, like, right, was a hot topic. And then the conversation then switched to belonging. I feel like we’re in like a very zero sum kind of environment right now where like, if somebody gets something, it means that we’re having to take it away from somebody else.

And I don’t know that I believe that to be true. Like, that’s a really like heavily, that’s a heavy investment in a scarcity mindset and not at all about abundance. Right. Like,

Faraz: of contrary to that too, though, is that, I mean, you see this, I know, at least in particular, like on the, on the product side, and I believe it’s also true and, you know, designing for spaces, but when you’re designing for someone who maybe has a different ability level, right. You actually oftentimes are making that design better for everyone.

Ella: right. Yeah.

But why, why are we not sitting in that mentality, like, more often, I guess? Um, like, it, just in general. Like, I think it doesn’t even, it’s not even limited to sort of buildings and built environment. But that, like, what’s good for one of us is good for all of us. Right?

Faraz: Yeah. And I like that kind of as a more optimistic view, right? Of this space, because I think that’s what, what helps us move forward. I think in thinking about design and thinking about like who we’re working to, I guess who we’re serving, right?

Ella: Yeah.

Yeah, I was looking up, like, Moti, I think, did some, one of our associate producers did some interesting research on sort of the state of abilities, uh, in our country, and like, one of the things she pulled was from CDC’s website, and it was talking about, it said that more than one in And our country is in some way differently abled, whether it be from like a cognition, a mobility, uh, independence of living versus hearing, vision, and they even included self care in this, um, or like mental health in this, um, which I thought was really interesting.

So if we’re looking at it that way, like, that’s a significant percentage of us. And so rather than to, rather than to sort of, I guess parse spaces in a way that like are for optimal air quotes optimal um, like I think you’re right that like inclusivity or Intention intentionality around each of these is a really interesting thing And I also wonder what’s missing from this list.

Actually, this is

Faraz: Well, it’s interesting. You mentioned that too, like the statistics about just how many people are affected. I don’t know that the perception of DEI has really taken into consideration just how pervasive, right? Being at a different ability level really affects people in the country, but also throughout the world and how you might actually have to change how you think about design, right?

In the sense that, you know, we were watching, um, as part of some of our homework, right? There was one of these TED talks. We’ll, we’ll put a link in the description. Um, there was talking about someone who was wheelchair bound, and. how they viewed the environment through their experiences and their level of ability.

It was like all the normal day to day stuff that we take for, for granted was a real challenge to them existing in that space, not just getting around, but just existing in that space. And they did this great thought experiment of, [00:15:00] I think the speaker was talking about, like, imagine the world where, um, every step was like six feet high and, you know, all of the language was written in Braille.

Like, how would that work? Exactly. How would you feel?

Ella: Yeah,

Faraz: And I think that’s such a great way of, uh, kind of bringing that home where, you know, it’s not just that you’re in that space and you might feel, at a disadvantage because of the way it was designed. But the other thing too, is that you may not feel welcome.

is that something that we need to actively be doing when we’re creating, you know, new buildings, or, uh, rehabilitating buildings, or creating new spaces and new design?

how responsible are we for that?

Ella: Yeah, I think I’ve been thinking about as we kind of did some of our homework across all of these I want to be I realized that like my frustration around architecture and the profession might come off as like that I think architects like stink and that it’s A bad profession. And I realized that I feel exactly the opposite.

That like I feel badly that architects are so burdened by like, you know, litigation and sort of like it’s such a very contract heavy litigious profession that

Faraz: lot of liability. Mm

Ella: lot of liability that I feel like sometimes takes the attention away, or like it, it, it bogs architects down in things that like, they shouldn’t be doing because they’re so good at other things.

And what I want is to take that burden away so that we can liberate architects to think about and have the time to Like, we’re asking a lot of like this group of people who it’s like already pretty taxed, you know, um, so Yeah,

I think we should be thinking about that. But I think the underlying question I think about is like, how do we, how do we change our profession to support that so that we have more time to be intentional about the things that are actually important and meaningful and impactful to such a broad population?

You

Faraz: what are some things you think that, you know, looking back on your kind of career, starting in architecture, that you wish were part of that focus?

Ella: It’s like, I wish that we had a much more inclusive sort of education of looking at architecture, like, across the globe. I think that, I went to school on the East Coast, and our education, well, I think it was incredibly well rounded. I went to a polytechnic, so it wasn’t like a super designy design school, but like, it still had a pretty heavy focus on, like, European design, right?

Like, modernism and all of that kind of stuff. And so, it left out a lot of room for sort of different ways of designing and different ways of living that I think are valid that would have maybe Come from other places in the world. Um, and like it didn’t I guess include the concept of communities, um the color even right like the like from from places that are tropical and maybe ancient in a different way.

the sense of community that comes from that, or the vibe you can even detect from the way things were built, um, in a more communal or like tribal focus. Uh, super interesting to me, like I feel, I spend a lot of time looking at some of that stuff now, and realize that my education was heavily focused on, like very crisp, clean, Eurocentric.

Faraz: I have to find out what the name of this was, but it was an article. It was something or article in a book. Um, something along the lines of the science of beauty. And it’s a neuroscientist. it was actually doing some real like hard research about how people’s brains react to visual stimulus.

And, um, the researcher was actually from India and he was talking about this, the same thing that you’re talking about, right? Like

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: he was walking around this space, talking with one of his colleagues. And it was like, Oh, this very like modernist, very minimalist building. And it’s like, Oh my gosh, this is so clean, so beautiful.

And the researcher was like, wow, this is actually like awful. This is not at all. What would I prefer? Like, where’s the color, where’s the like pattern, where’s the shape. And I think, you know, when we think about this. in terms of, I think, principles for architects and designers to consider. It isn’t actually just from their own perspective of asking these questions, but really like you have to put yourself, you know, two, three steps forward and think about who’s actually going to be occupying the space.

What are their circumstances? Where do they come from? What are their, you know, moments of context that help them feel welcome or familiar so that they recognize it as functional or beautiful,

Ella: Yeah. Texture. Color. Yeah. Spaces that feel inviting. I’ve noticed post pandemic that we’ve kind of resumershiled, like we’ve homified the office and like kind of office ified parts of our home.

Um, And so like this interesting blending, but there’s also this idea, um, of third spaces,

Faraz: help me understand what is a third space? I’m not super

Ella: I, okay, I’m not entirely [00:20:00] sure either. I think it basically qualifies as like impromptu spaces where. It’s neither of the other two. It’s not your home, which is a first space. It’s not the office, which is a second, or like, you know, office and or like shopping things like have like a specific purpose, but third spaces are sort of gathering and communal, to my knowledge.

Faraz: Rob is raising his hand.

Rob: in sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, libraries, gyms, bookstores, hacker spaces, stoops, parks, theaters, among others.

Faraz: Among others.

Rob: I like that stoops and parks are in there. I’m just going to put that out there.

Ella: Legit. I think I’m just going to add that, uh, those third spaces are meant to be rather accessible in terms of like finances. Like you shouldn’t have to break the bank to join the gym or, you know, the library would be free. Or I even saw one place called barbershops, which is interesting, not, you know, like, right?

Moti: Like people gathering and sharing stories and they’re there. So.

Ella: Yeah, I love that. Thank you.

Faraz: The voice of God just telling you what the definition of third space is a I

Ella: No, but I think like it’s important to think about those because those are places that I think inherently Like belonging is kind of a part of it because it’s not they seem less formal, right?

Faraz: Why are they important in kind of the discourse of design?

Ella: that people Inherently want to be communal to a degree. I’m in in varying degrees

Faraz: yes, I would agree with that.

Ella: Yeah.

But that these spaces like sometimes happen on their own, out of that very kind of human desire. Um, I guess so maybe can I put you on the spot and say like, is there anything that you resonate with more? Like where do you feel most comfortable or feel like you belong?

Faraz: a really like small sweaty music venue Feels good.

when I used to live out in Southern California for a hot minute, there were a lot of like really shitty venues,

I don’t know, there was a lot of energy.

And I think it was just a gathering of young people in energy that was all focused on kind of the singular experience that everyone wanted. And for me, like, that’s the thing that makes me feel really good. Um, Anything that involves food is also good. Rob was mentioning cafes, restaurants, like these spaces that just feel like there’s some buzz about it.

There’s an energy that like, it’s, it’s a two way transaction, I think. Like it, it goes both ways. And I think that that’s something that can become really energizing.

Ella: I think that’s fair.

Faraz: Yeah. What about you?

Ella: I’m really good at an airport bar.

Faraz: Okay. Yeah.

Ella: airport bar, right? Like, you never have to talk to somebody ever again, so you say whatever. No, I think in my like, personal health and wellness, I really like parks. There’s this one park that I continually go to that has like a nice walking track all the way around it that’s gravel, so it’s not like paved, but like people are running, people are walking, like everybody can go their own pace.

Like in the middle you can see people playing soccer, like reading, relaxing, there’s dogs, and like kids, there’s people of all ages. One thing I’ve noticed, I like watching a lot is like, I see this one family quite consistently where there’s a couple of, a couple of kids, and the parents, but there’s also somebody’s mother,

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: I’m assuming a grandparent, and one of the youngest kids, and like they seem, like they walk and often hold hands, and I realize like the olds and the youngs kind of move at the same

pace, and so, Yeah.

So like it seems like it’s a place that, at least to me, feels like it’s for everyone, um, But I also know that there are some parks that like don’t feel that way.

Um, like even in like downtown LA Like this has been like a design competition over and over and over again There’s this place called pershing square which used to be a third space that was all about like activism like a lot of like Protests and things like start and end there, but the architecture of it I think it was designed by Liguretta back in like the 80s or 90s, but they, because they needed an extra like level of parking, they raised, yeah, that’s very LA move.

They raised it about like three or four feet above street level. And so you have steps and ramps and like all of this kind of infrastructure to kind of get in and it feels very unwelcoming. And it’s amazing what like that, you don’t think it’s significant, but it is, um, subconsciously. So I think. Things that feel natural feel good to me.

Um, I’m kind of an ambivert. Like I can play a pretty good extrovert when I need to, but like, I prefer to engage in spaces where I can be to myself and kind of observe or engage as much or as little as I feel like I have energy for that day,

Faraz: how do these considerations in your mind translate to [00:25:00] maybe a second space? Right? So the workplace, I feel like there is, because I think you we were talking about how a lot of the workplace has been shifting towards like this reservational vibe, right? Um, are there things that we really should be taking into consideration from designing a third space and applying it to the workplace that make it feel more welcoming?

Um, for different communities. And I think maybe that’s the word I want to hang on to is like community. And I think that that also applies to you. your co workers and the environment in which you work. But what, what elements would you want to kind of carry over?

Ella: for me, I’m like a couch dwelling human. Like if I had, like I actually am pretty productive from couch. Like I know ergonomically it’s probably not the most healthy position, but like depending on the kind of work that I’m doing, but if I’m like kind of thinking and having to like read and kind of consider and like ponder stuff, like I want to be comfortable to do some of those things, or I do them while I’m walking.

So I actually do a lot of thinking while I’m in motion.

Faraz: Did you ever subscribe to the idea of doing the treadmill desk?

Ella: No, that seems like the exact wrong thing to do. To

Faraz: One of the, the towns I lived in had those in their library. I tried it once.

Ella: Did you? I feel like I would, did you eat shit? Like, is that even,

like,

Faraz: was just, they had a computer screen. I was like, you can’t do shit.

Ella: No, I don’t feel like you’re doing either thing very well. Like, I’m not a multitasker, period. So, but,

Faraz: Oh Moti, what

Ella: much.

Moti: Um, so I know that, um, for walking to work with your thinking process, you have to have things move in your peripheral image. So you can’t be stationary, have the office around you stationary and you’re the one walking. You have to be outside because then, um, the amygdala in your brain is going to, like, calm down.

And that’s when ideas come to surface.

Ella: That’s incredible. I like this. Like, there’s also the other. Book that I read that like supports that exact theory motive is, um, thinking fast and slow. I Daniel Kahneman. Um, but he says similar thing, but like your parasympathetic nerve system, like, like if you’re running, you’re spending too much cognitive energy on like, don’t stop.

Don’t stop. Like keep running, doing something. If you’re stationary, like different things are happening or not enough is happening, but like walking is kind of the sweet spot to kind of calm all of that, to allow. Like, and there’s like a specific pace. Like you have to be able to talk. Like that pace of walking is what’s actually helpful for cognition.

Faraz: That’s super interesting.

Ella: Ah, belonging is like a really interesting concept to me also. I have one weird thing that I did not put In our homework, but thought of this morning that I wanted to, I don’t know if I shared this with you yet or not, but like, cause if what we’re trying to. In gender or in courage is the sense of belonging.

Part of that comes from perspective, right? I was thinking, well, let me ask you a question first, like, in your career slash school, like, be it college, high school, like, do you have spaces where you felt like you really did fit in and belong or didn’t in your experience? Mm

Faraz: In school, I think, I don’t know, it was, it was a little bit different experience. So I actually got married between my freshman, sophomore year. So we were like a couple on college campus, which is not the college vibe, right?

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: And then also having a kid too, like it, it, it was something that made getting around harder, right?

Like you had to like carry your little car seat and on the bus, you know, if you’re going to the grocery store or whatever, getting across campus.

That was kind of difficult, but then on my own, the studio was something where, because there were a lot of like minded people, that was a very welcoming area.

Ella: what was it about that that made you feel welcome and that you belonged?

Faraz: there wasn’t anything that hindered the thing I was trying to get done, right? Like,

Ella: Mm hmm.

Faraz: the furniture and the space, right, it all worked with my ability level.

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: There wasn’t anything that was particularly offensive about, like, the aesthetics, right? It was just a studio, but we kind of had our clutter of prototypes and, uh, you know, work in process that actually worked as a little bit of decoration, but also was just a, I don’t know, made for a really good sense of, uh, a good sense of space in there, right?

Because

Ella: Aww.

Well done.

Faraz: But, like, the idea that, you know, you could see a visual representation of what the energy was in that space. all the prototypes and all the stuff that people were thinking about from design. all that was really [00:30:00] shown.

Ella: Ooh, so like being surrounded by like a visual representation of ideas or creativities makes you feel

Faraz: Yeah. And I think, um, you could see yourself in what everyone else was doing,

Ella: Ah, okay.

Faraz: right? So it was, it was shared. It wasn’t just an experience that I was having. It was a shared experience.

Ella: I love that. So I recently, well, a couple of years ago met a gentleman by the name of Guy Reed, who’s a director for like small indie films and things like that, but I met him at a, like a design intelligence event and they brought him to talk to a bunch of architects, engineers, developers, et cetera.

One of the short films he made some time ago was called Planetary, where he interviewed, astronauts who had

been to outer space. and they were talking about, like, shared experience or shared perspective that like once you were able to get far enough away from the earth looking back at this like ball it was like all of our squabbles all of the things that we think like no we’re all like brothers and sisters and we come like we all share this thing here and so the the film was intended to kind of bring some of that perspective to everyone which is like how do we set down the differences and find the common themes right and how do we feel like we belong once you can kind of see this shared thing and so I’m wondering if like, there’s an equivalent of that or how to harness some of that and if that would be helpful in figuring out how to help us design for everyone.

Faraz: I do think so. And I think a lot of it is, maybe it’s a different word than perspective, but I think it’s related to the experiences, empathy, right, whether we are designing to include a certain population or exclude a population that you have to think with empathy, because you’re putting yourself in the shoes of someone else and trying to understand what their context is, um, because it’s different than yours, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of, I think, intention to step out of your comfort zone and think about those things and, you know, You know, I imagine for all the folks that are fortunate enough to go into space and look back, you realize that the things you get hung up on are probably way more trivial than one would like to admit.

Ella: I’m trying to think about, like, the times when I’m short on empathy, or like, not being my best self, are usually when I’m tired, or overworked, or stressed, or like, not taking good care of myself.

Faraz: Right. Your hierarchy of needs are not being addressed.

Ella: Correct, we’re low on the meslas. We’re low on mesla.

Faraz: Right.

Ella: but I guess, like, maybe this is, like, sort of the broader conversation about, like, self care, is that if we all show up and, like, we’re meeting our own needs, like, we actually have a lot of self care.

Bandwidth for generosity and empathy for others. So in some ways, taking care of ourselves is for the greater good, right? How do we, how do we do that better?

Faraz: Be nice to people.

Ella: Be nice, just be

nice.

Faraz: Just be nice.

Ella: I like that.

so because you had kids so young, I’m curious also about sort of like the multi generational. So like if your kids had a lot of FaceTime with like your parents

Faraz: My parents are in their early to mid 80s,

but they’re still, they’re still active. And yeah, my kids get a lot of FaceTime with

Ella: I guess the reason I’m asking you is that, like, my family all had kids very late.

Right? So we’ve got, got some, some littles, and then the olds are old. But, but, but, but, so you’ve had a long period of time of watching that overlap or That interaction.

Uh, common themes, threads, like, the aging community is also a really interesting group. Like, The boomers, like our parents, are about to be, they’re a huge generation, and like there are going to be a lot of them,

you

Faraz: That is definitely a thing, you know, and I think that even when I’m going around town and looking at some of these environments, like less so the workplace, but when I think about a hospitality design, um, like I was saying, like one of the places I feel really comfortable is any place that involves food.

Um, So I love to take, you know, my family out to dinner, um, when we can, right. I’ll take the kids. And then when my parents will come and visit, I love to take them out. But nowadays it’s getting really hard. My mom has had like, um, hip replacement. I think my dad is on his cyborg knees now. Um, and everybody’s just a little bit slower, tougher to get, get around.

And a lot of the restaurants we go to, there are physical barriers to enjoy it at the same level that I do. Right. Maybe it’s the. the type of seating or the height of the seating right that actually becomes really challenging for like my mom who has a hard time kind of getting up and down thresholds through doorways or like a maybe a quick step up into the space that could be really really difficult actually my mom broke her hip because she was stepping down from like a sidewalk and slipped on ice and like I have to really be very careful hyper conscious about some of those physical [00:35:00] conditions of the space so that my parents are able to kind of get around and enjoying, you know, the fun of being there.

The other part of it too is, and this is, I think where it applies a little bit of a shameless plug for Turf. The acoustics in a lot of restaurants are really bad. So if they had some of our product in there from Turf, it’d be so much better because it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who doesn’t Even as you get older, naturally, your hearing declines.

But for some, for my dad, if he won’t admit it, but he is really hard of hearing. And that actually makes for not just a a difficult conversation, but sometimes they won’t actually be able to hear what you said. And they will pretend like, Oh, yeah, of course I heard. And then you end up with, you know, the, this kind of situation where, the quality of your interaction has declined because of the physical considerations of that space, the acoustics, maybe the lighting where you can’t see the physical.

Um, challenges in the space and then obviously like how it is built and constructed. All these things get in the way of how people feel in that space.

Ella: I totally understand that. It was echoed by one of our other homeworks, was to watch that Don Norman video,

right? He said the very same thing, he was like, I don’t want to go to the best restaurant, I want to go to the quietest

restaurant, with the best food.

Faraz: Exactly.

Ella: Totally get that. And I think, like, back to our vibe episode, also, it’s like, Sometimes you do want that buzzy thing.

Like at a certain point in life like you’re like that energy is good, but like It’s not for everyone and it’s not All the time depending on the needs of the group, right?

Faraz: Well, and I think that’s the, the trade off of all this, right? You know, we were, we’re asking these questions of, you know, design for everyone, but I think that it’s probably not an easy answer in that if you’re making a design decision to include somebody, you might also at the same time be excluding someone else.

Ella: yeah, I think that’s fair. I

Faraz: Maybe that’s okay. I don’t know.

Ella: I think well, I think it’s an inevitable I think but being intentional about who something is for and who it’s not for like so long as There are spaces for everyone. Like the, the hard part is when we’re not intentionally or unintentionally excluding big populations of people because we haven’t thought about it.

I think That’s I think that’s most of what’s happening, honestly,

but I think that

Faraz: of the lack of awareness.

Ella: Right, but I think when you’re being intentional about this is for this group, right? Like I don’t know if the ball pit like like yeah, I could jump in that but that’s not intended necessarily for me Right. the bouncy house like the things like things for for kids.

I might do that, but it wasn’t made For with a 43 year old

woman in mind

Faraz: An edge case.

Ella: Yeah

Faraz: Well, I mean, okay, this is actually, I want to kind of come full circle a little bit with this, but

Ella: that’s

Faraz: knowing that, or let’s say, let’s share the assumption for a minute that lack of awareness is a big problem. And maybe that’s where, you know, some of the challenges come with spaces we’re experiencing now.

When you were in school, what was something you wish they would have told you that, you know, now,

Ella: a really tough question um

Faraz: like it would have made you a better designer early on.

Ella: Yeah, I think it’s that like, oh, I’m gonna get myself in deep doo doo here. Um, kind of

Faraz: you’re gonna admit that you didn’t know it then or no.

Ella: no, I’m fully comfortable admitting that I don’t, like, there’s things that I definitely, like, I’m gonna look back in 20 years when I, like, oh, like, why didn’t we know this now?

But like, like, the idea of form and function, like, form doesn’t follow function, function doesn’t follow form, like, the happy melding of the two is like, that was kind of, In some ways, the antithesis, it’s like, no, like it needs to be beautiful.

Like you have to follow these codes and do these things, but it must be beautiful. And I think that sometimes beauty is the beholder,

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: something that I think is beautiful now is like intention, right? Like, as long as I can tell that somebody has done something with care and understanding or with a specific reason, like that would have been like horrifying to be.

If I’d said something like that in design school, but I really think that that’s true now. Like, I think I see beauty much differently. Um, and when people can access or use things like, like when there’s agency in

design, that to me feels really good. And like, I still want it to be beautiful, but like, that’s very different than sort of the traditional

way.

Faraz: Well, and I think maybe there’s a beauty, right, and it may not even have to be explicitly like visual beauty, but like in the sentiment and the idea,

intention can be [00:40:00] beautiful,

Ella: Intention is beautiful.

Faraz: right? I feel like that needs to be a poster or a shirt.

Ella: Should we put like a poster on the wall with like an eagle

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: To need to be a dove. and some Sarah font.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: is beautiful.

Ella: Oh shit.

Faraz: do think that, you know, for me in, cause we were in product

design school, so it was a little bit focused in some ways, but we would always do, no one can see me doing the air quotes, but ethnographic research. And kind of day in the life of type studies when we were designing product.

And part of that would be putting together these personas.

I really, really wish that I had an understanding that those personas aren’t just a way to kind of frame an aesthetic or to frame like a material choice. Like, oh, this is a luxury buyer. And so this is the type of, um, like materials we’re using, but really it’s actually There is some person on an individual level that you are going to affect with the design choices that you make and thinking through the ramifications of that.

Like, I really wish it would have been so, so much more personal. When I was in my career, you could start to see it and piece it together. But when you were young and, you know, uh, a freshie out of school, it was like, you didn’t have that connection in the same way.

Ella: Do you think that there’s some like age or wisdom or like self acceptance? Like what are the things that have like supported your shift to being a more empathetic designer? Mm

Faraz: I think,

Ella: hmm. Mm

Faraz: I don’t know if this is exactly the same thing as the struggle, but. Um, when I was earlier in my career, I think having more exposure to the people that you were impacting, right? So I was very fortunate to work for a company. I ran out of school where I worked in a factory, um, like the stuff that we were designing and engineering, we were in the, the, like on the line in the workplace that, um, all the assembly and production folks were putting it together.

Having that exposure to not just the people who are going to sit in it, sit in the chair, right, or the sofa that we were designing, but also the people that had to assemble it gave me a lot of empathy because you could physically see a design decision you made in like a plywood assembly made somebody’s job harder and actually like caused them like frustration or on the flip side maybe when there was a win was like oh wow like actually that little you know detail that we added made them you know have it so much easier like it saved them 10 minutes which may not sound like much but At the end of the day, maybe that was actually, they got higher pay because they got more units completed or maybe it wasn’t as difficult and they didn’t hurt or strain their wrist when they were upholstering something like that was a real moment for me in my career that I was like, Oh shit.

Like

Ella: The decisions

you

make. Yeah.

Well, hot take then. Quick question. Little aside. IKEA. Do you assemble your own IKEA furniture and is that easy? Do you use the instructions or no?

Faraz: when I do Ikea, I assemble it myself.

Ella: Got it.

I guess the reason I bring up IKEA though is like, sure, there are some, there are some issues with like, the disposability of like, furniture and things like that, and the fact that it’s not made to like, disassemble and

Faraz: it will not survive a move very well.

Ella: the one thing I do really respect about that brand, despite some of its other lineage, is that they did make design accessible to everyone.

Like, there wasn’t a price point associated with good design. Like, that, I think, is important, and that, that is a good thing.

Faraz: I like that part of the hot take.

Ella: Okay, we’ll take that. We’ll take.

that leave the other stuff

Faraz: Cool.

That

sounds good. I like that.

That’s another making up inspirational posters

Yeah, that’s the the Sense of Space limited edition poster series

Mo’s

got a thing.

Moti: I just looked up one of the restaurants in Los Angeles, Osteria Mozza, that has a Michelin star. And I looked through Their website for accessibility information.

I couldn’t find anything and I was like, Google UX course has a whole module about inclusive design in digital products. We don’t have that on websites of physical spaces that people have to go to. maybe there’s a way to communicate, Hey, the sound level in this restaurant is as loud as a train station

or like literally tell you hey this restaurant Has these obstacles or like the chairs are this way not in a negative way But to just let

you know

Faraz: matter of fact.

Moti: into

Faraz: Well, maybe that’ll be a thing when we are old and have trouble getting around

Ella: that’s a good point though, on all of that, which is to say the other thing we were like, kind of looking at is like, because the boomers are like, wealthy, [00:45:00] and like, have an expectation of like the quality of their life and experience. Like one of the things being said is like, why is stuff for old people so ugly?

Or like, so like, why is this such like a design afterthought? And I hadn’t, really considered this much to be honest until we started talking about this. So I really appreciate the research. Um, but it’s true.

Faraz: Yeah,

my mom has one of those, um, the tube frame walking slash seat things. And when my son was graduating from high school, like we’d put it in my trunk. I have a big sedan with a big ass trunk. That thing would barely fit in there.

Ella: Really?

Faraz: And like, I’m young and young and able bodied.

Ella: I’m

Faraz: I’m young and a what but it was a pain in the ass to take apart and try and fit in my trunk Like how is like, how are my mom and dad is supposed to do that if they’re getting around

Ella: it’s true, like I think a lot of things are kind of afterthoughts or designed for a specific function without the user experience, um, sort of considered, um, and we could do a better job of that. But I guess, maybe it’s like a commentary a bit on like what we prioritize design for, right, like what we think deserves design, for whom are we designing?

Faraz: yep.

Ella: I was also reading this like weird article, uh, Moti and I had done like a different research project back in the Armstrong days of like venturing around this population and like what they wanted. In terms of housing, when they got older, right. The idea of aging in place in their homes versus there’s like a disproportionate of like men still die sooner than women.

And so there was a disproportionate of sort of older women who had inherited money and were like, had, this is going to be grossly, I’m making a gross generalization here, newsflash that like they felt like they’d spent a lot of time supporting family and husbands and being a caretaker and really wanted to have like A different experience in their remaining years and could afford it.

And so, like, that you find like a couple of really interesting developers creating properties specifically for women where you can kind of age. It’s a progressive care community, but that they, they, they design spaces and program it up with like cooking classes and wine tastings and all kinds of things for women to do in their later years that they maybe didn’t get to do earlier on.

And I thought that was really kind of cool. I was like, huh, well,

Faraz: yeah, I mean I do think that there’s like a whole other level of social commentary about age and ability level is perceived right in society. And I don’t know, maybe feeling like it’s less than in that design doesn’t address those audiences in the same way or those populations in the same way.

Ella: Yeah,

I think that’s going to become a really pertinent issue though, um, soon. Like, like, The, the olds are, the olds are in mess, and I think that, like, if I think about how I want my parents to be cared for or what’s important to them, like, in terms of agency, like, they built, my mom and her, my stepdad built a house knowing that they were going to be old, and so they built basically an ADA accessible home all in

Faraz: right.

They were planning ahead that this is where They were going to be.

Ella: Then which is interesting. It’s like awkward to like it’s very spacious now, but I understand that like in the future like it’ll give them the flexibility that they want, which I thought, you know, it’s a privilege to be.

able to do that. But I thought it was pretty cool that they’d thought about that in advance.

Faraz: you know, your parents were very fortunate to be able to have that. agency, and I think

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: and awareness to do that.

Maybe we need to put a little bit more responsibility on us now as architects and designers to think about that for folks who maybe aren’t taking that into consideration.

Ella: Yeah. I think that’s exactly right. I think, but also to your earlier point, like if we were designed things like that for that age group now, like what would that afford? Yeah. For just like the TED talk that we watched about other differently, differently abled people now.

Faraz: Their quality of life.

Yeah.

Ella: Yeah. Like every once in a while when I’m traveling, I’ll get put in like an ADA room in a hotel, which is sometimes nice because I have a bathtub

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: sometimes, like not just a shower, but like I noticed that there are things like that are at different heights.

Like there’s like the second peephole down low, like all kinds of things. And it like, it’s, it was an interesting, the first time it happened, I was like, Oh, huh. Like I hadn’t, Consider this, like, the hanging rod was at a lower level, like, all of the things were at an accessible height, but the room was spacious, and, like, I could see how, but the design also wasn’t diminished, and I thought that that was, whoever had done that was, it was tasteful, you know?

Faraz: And I, I, you know, this is a, I think again, another one of those nuggets and takeaways for, for our folks. It’s like, To your point, the design wasn’t diminished and I think that should be the goal for this is that no matter how we as designers and architects are addressing different ability levels, it’s done in a way that doesn’t diminish the [00:50:00] design for anyone and that no one feels singled out, right?

There’s not this sense of other,

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: you’re part of it and this, yeah, you belong.

You

belong

in this space.

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: So maybe it’s not that design for everyone, but it is designing for.

Ella: Yeah, how do we design for belonging?

Yeah,

I like that.

originally from the Hebrew language.

Faraz: thanks for listening to Sense of Space. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte, with help from associate producers Moti Tavassoli and Patricia Gonzalez.

Ella: Sense of Space is a TERF podcast and brought to you by the Surround Network by Sandow Design Group. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surroundpodcastsplural. com.

Faraz: don’t forget to leave a five star review on your podcast platform of choice. And if you have any feedback, please go ahead and send Ella a bunch of notes via smoke signals. I’m sure she’ll be able to see it from her apartment.

Ella: Or you can slide into our DMs.