Fractals: Nature’s Healing Patterns in Design

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Avi: [00:00:00] Welcome to Deep Green. I'm your host, Avi Rajagopal, the editor-in-chief of the Architecture and Interior Design Magazine, metropolis. Today's episode is brought to you in partnership with the textiles and wall coverings company momentum, and we're coming to you from the Furnishing Show, NeoCon in Chicago,

and we're gonna talk about fractals. In the 1960s, the mathematician Penit Mandelbrot began exploring this concept that he first called self similarity. You know, geometric forms whose parts are identical to the overall form. A good example is a straight line. A part of a straight line is also a straight.

right?

But you can also see this kind of geometry, say in the head of [00:01:00] Romanesco Broccoli, right?

Um, where every floret has a spiral that's identical to how the florets themselves are arranged in the head in a spiral. In 19 75, Manel brought, named this phenomenon a fractal, and it turns out that fractals are everywhere in nature. The way rivers branch out and then divide into tributaries and ts.

That's fractal in nature. The way a tree trunk grows branches is often identical. to how the branches then grow twigs. That's fractals too. More recently, researchers have begun to argue that human brains recognize these fractal patterns in nature, sometimes subconsciously. And because we associate them with the way nature works, seeing them.

Can have the same effects as when we perceive nature. So why are we talking about fractals on a podcast about sustainable architecture and design? Well, fractals actually show up in plenty of pre-modern architecture [00:02:00] in the ornaments of gothic cathedrals or in the niches of medieval mosques. But today I have three guests who've applied the signs of fractals to objects and materials so that interacting with these products can make us feel good, like being in a natural environment would.

Okay with me today are Dr. Richard Taylor, whose research actually underpins our understanding of the impact of fractal patterns and Anastasia and Martin Lasek who have been applying this research in the products they design at their firm. 13 by nine, including a new collection of wall coverings for momentum called re naturation.

Dr. Taylor, we're gonna start with you. So what is this thing you call fractal fluency and uh, can you give us a quick overview of that?

Richard: I think the key element is that, you know, looking back in evolution, uh, over 600 million years, our visual systems have ser been.

Gradually tuning themselves to the surroundings. And those surroundings, uh, have lots of examples of [00:03:00] fractals in them. So, uh, the visual system has literally become fluent in the visual language of fractals and the brain craves to actually see this. So when we wander away. From, uh, that fractal scenery. So wandering away from what it wants to look at, that's when all these sorts of problems to do with health and wellbeing start to emerge.

Avi: but what do we mean by the fluency part of this? You know, uh, aren't we already fluent in FALs, like isn't kind of wired into our brains, as you say.

Richard: say. Yeah. So, uh, it's remarkable. I think it's a fundamental part of being a human being that we all share this heritage of needing to actually see them.

So, you know, for our ancestors it was now. Problem that we could spend a lot of time in the forests, and it's over the 10 last 10,000 years where, you know, we've changed the way that we operate in life and we end up in these buildings. That's when the problems start because we're, we're not fluent [00:04:00] in that language that typical buildings present.

So when you hang out in nature, you're at ease because you, you're. You, you know, your whole body and your brain speaks this language. But when you wander into a typical building, it's being like transported to some far off land where you don't understand the language. So your stress levels go up immediately.

Avi: Wow. Martin and Anastasia, I wanted to bring you in here.

Richard: here?

Avi: When did you start to think about applying this idea of fractals to the way you design things?

We started to

Martin: think about paraphilic design almost a decade ago. It was just at the beginning of this big movement that we have now when Paraphilic design is existing since a while, but, but only the recent years are really where it's become so popular.

And

we started, like everyone, you know, we tried to bring in real nature and [00:05:00] integrating plants, natural materials, et cetera, but at one point we wanted to know what is behind.

This a little bit, romanticism of biophilia and we, we started to do research and one name regularly popped up, and this was professor Dr. Richard Taylor.

Uh, at one point I said, and I would so much love to talk to this guy because I think he's the key. And, and she wrote him an email saying, dear Professor Taylor, we want to to work with you. If you are also interested, don't answer in between the next three weeks because we are on Christmas holidays. This was the beginning and he found it so hilarious that immediately after three weeks he responded and, and yeah, the rest is fractal. Design history.

Avi: Yeah. I mean, Ashia, now you've been applying this, you know, this work in collaboration with Dr.

Taylor in a lot of different ways. Tell us about your journey.

Anastasia: [00:06:00] the journey was amazing. Um, I, um, talked often to Richard. It's, you know, first when you start, you read about, uh, publications, you really go into next level and next level.

Some of those, uh, facts are kind of common for you, but there was no interface between design and science. I would say not for me. You, we worked very instinctively. We had have our artistic approach, our backgrounds as well, but, and we were always very multidisciplinary, but science was for us. Uh, there, we used it in our presentation, but we.

Never had long term collaboration and that was the game changer for us. So we learned completely different way, how do we approach to design? So we educated ourself in certain parameters that we have to know about fractile. We start to think differently about build [00:07:00] environment, uh, integrating health and wellbeing into build environment about product applications.

So there was. No more random design, uh, trials. So every step that we did was in a collaboration with Professor Taylor and he gave us a space for our cre creativity because it's kind of natural thing as well. And our eyes are also our, our way, how we do it is a, uh, very spontaneous and artistic, and like I said, instinctive, but there is also certain level or speed Sweet.

Pot that you have to know when you design fractals that are, uh, have a stress re reducing effect. And that was also for us, something completely new. A lot of food and bags and a lot of excitement, but also a lot of questions on this journey and. Like Martin mentioned it, eight years. So we became friends, a team, um, kind of fractal family. We have our [00:08:00] teaming grads back in Austria. Architects, interior designer, product designer, graphic designer, sound designer. Was a fashion designer, textile designer. And Richard has his. Team in uni at University of Oregon at Fractals Research. So we became one big family.

Avi: I wonder if, uh, maybe Martin, you can give us a little bit of a description of the newest baby from the Fractal family, which is re naturation this new collection for momentum.

Martin: So, re naturation is a, is a big political discussion.

We know it, especially from the European Union. So there's a new law where 15% of agricultural or industrial, landscapes need to, be given back to nature. it gonna be rerated

similar what we do with the built environment. We want to give it back to nature or to natural essences like rectals are.

and the collection.

in

the recent years we worked with a software [00:09:00] that we created together with Richard Teams to generate and grow these fractal patterns.

And with the software we, we are very much able to control the parameters that are necessary from a scientific perspective

to get

the result of stress tact patents, because this was the main target until now with the remuneration collection we went to. A new way, more or less, the opposite way. So we, we took actual patterns from nature and morphed them, and abstracted them and treated them until the sweet spot where they had this stress attractive properties.

So this, this was a quite a new approach in a very. Yeah, time consuming approach because it's a lot of back and forth because when we create an embed and we have to send it over,

and Richard and his team does the testing. so it was an [00:10:00] interesting journey.

But the outcome is from aesthetic perspective, something completely new versus the ones before. And they're super organic and, yeah, even more natural than the computer generated. And for example, we have, uh, three, three bedrooms, the river, the bark. Yeah.

And the moss,

for example, the moss looks like real moss that is growing out of a, you know, it from concrete walls when they're in the, in the shadow. Then at what time they get this, you know, this greenish pattern of moss. So this is actually what, what is the, the moss wall covering about the river Looks like a, a air view on, um. On the,

river system and the park is really, yeah, it's the texture of a park, of a real bag that we took, but then abstracted in a very sophisticated way to, match all the manufacturing [00:11:00] criteria.

Also the application criteria, but also the scientific properties.

Avi: So my question to you is, one, what are you optimizing for? And second, how do you optimize the patterns?

Richard: When I think about our process, you know, we've been describing how we go back and forth between us, you know, and how intensive it is. Why do we do that?

Why don't we just take a photograph and just put it on a wall? So the first thing is, you know that, uh, when you wander through a forest, say for example, and that's a great experience, that's fundamentally a different environment than say, when you're walking down a corridor of an airport.

And so we have to allow for that. So imagine, for example, if we were putting one of these designs. On, uh, the, the walls of the airport, the floor and the ceiling are relatively simple compared to anything that you would experience in the forest. So that puts extra pressure on the walls to deliver that [00:12:00] naturalness, and so we have to amp that up.

The second thing is not just the environment, but what are people doing in that environment? Because when you're in a building, you're doing something very different than just wandering through a forest. You know, a brain surgeon is doing something very different than just admiring the trees. So we have to adapt things for that as well.

And then the third thing is, well, who is the person? You know, neurodiversity, not everybody is the same. So we have to take into account who is the occupant? Is it a young person? Is it an old person? You know? So all of these things have to come together. Now what are we tuning? Well, the fractal pattern, what is so special about it compared to the built environment is all of these repeating patterns that you were talking about at the start.

And what that D does is build up an immense visual complexity, and that's what your visual system craves. And [00:13:00] so when you walk into the built environment, which is much more simple, you just don't get that complexity. But we have to tune that complexity based on the environment that we're putting it in.

What is the task of the person? And then finally who is the person.

Avi: Anastasia, you mentioned changing the way you design.

What

does this collection teach us about

how we

should be developing products for the building farm? beyond product. There isn't a certain level of energy you wanna give on and, uh, information.

Anastasia: You wanna understand the context and your design in the context in this case. You don't end up with product, you end up with a tool the designer can use, express their own creativity, dive deeper into a certain subject, and maybe [00:14:00] influence through this product something completely different. And this is something that we always talk about first.

We ask ourself, you know, what is the added value behind this product? Of course, each product has its own added value in material and its. Creation, sustainability in great manufacturing partners in the team and everything that we create together. But beyond that, there is no story to end. And this is what is so special to me in this design became an, um, journey.

And it doesn't end just with one product. It, uh, has a, for me, a larger context. And this is what I would like to point out in this collaboration.

Martin: and, and also in the, in the perspective of, of sustainability. for us, sustainability obviously is not only the ecological approach Like this is a PVC free product. but also the social [00:15:00] sustainability is very important. And we have this strong feeling that we are responsible with every creation that takes resources, uh, that should give an added value to society and not just be produced for its own sake. You

know,

and

with, with the science informed design, we can provide this.

This edit value. This gives us the, a good feeling to, to go on with that.

Anastasia: that. Maybe

also, this stress reductive approach and I was thinking today it's, you know what, stress became so common, almost normal in our lives.

And this is something that I wanna rethink from the beginning. You know, what does this two to individuals, each of us, to our, you know, body to our mind, but also to our society. And this is where I was saying, you know, it's not about just. Taking one movement. It's also something for all of us to think about, okay, is there any [00:16:00] prevention that I can do, can build environment support me?

Can we take, uh, count this, uh, this, this important surrounding, you know, it's our environment and, um, maybe not everyone has chance to spend in nature. Um, cities are growing. Um. They is getting, uh, so many tasks. So I, I'm always trying to find this context of can, can is, is there, there also added added value and, uh, this approach when we start to, uh, read the studies I was saying to Martin, you know, it's, it's not just about, uh, creation of something that we would say, okay, this is good for build environment.

How good is really for us? And Yeah.

Martin: And maybe the learning

is

everyone who, who designs something should ask three

Anastasia: questions.

Martin: Is

it

of

course,

can it be successful from an economical perspective? [00:17:00] Is it from an environmental perspective up to

date?

And

the third question, does it bring in added value to the environment and, and this society? And I think this is the biggest learning from this collaboration and, and there's so much knowledge

in,

in science

where we in the design industry

can,

can, um. Uh, get new answers for our questions. And for me, it's also a,

uh,

maybe for, for future collaborations in different fields of science with the design industry.

Richard: Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think that, um, we've reached the point where there's no excuse not to do it anymore.

You know, when you, I think we're. In a way we're the passengers in our bodies and we're the last to know. And I think people don't quite [00:18:00] appreciate how toxic stress can be to your health on many, many levels. And, uh, we have all of this data now, so there's no reason to just rely on chance. You know, we've got these systems where we can create these designs and.

All of the experiments are showing, pointing to how effective it will be when we put these designs in the built environment. So you don't have to look at them for long, you know, you don't have to stare at these things, you just have to glance at them. So you can be running down an airport corridor, you know, desperately trying to catch your flight, and you know, you don't have to pause and look at the walls.

You just have to have them in the environment. And it's also persists after you've stopped looking at it. So once you get on the aircraft, that calming effect is still with you. You know? So, and as long as you get that complexity right, there's lots of flexibility for design. So that's what I find really interesting.

[00:19:00] In our future, it would be awful if there was just one fractal design. That had to, you know, appear everywhere. But there isn't, there's lots of opportunities to create, you know, lots of superficial differences in the design and as long as you get that complexity right, it will trigger these massive stress reductions.

Anastasia: Are there spaces or places where it's not so easy to integrate nature, natural materials?

And I was thinking, oh, where do people really need stress duction and recovery and quicker recovering than hospitals or healthcare facilities? And, uh, there are so many restrictions to hold. from functional perspective and I was like, oh wow, this might be a quite interesting and it has could make sense there.

And um, this is also one of the thing what always inspired me. If we can have an a approach that is quite like we say, um, not so difficult to achieve. It [00:20:00] could be a one decision when you have, um, spaces or corridors in hospitals or some retreat rooms or, or uh, patient's rooms when it could be just wall covering

that

helps you to recover, cover quickly.

I think you have even a statement in your studies, Richard, um, how quick patient can recover after watching two fractals.

Richard: Yeah. You know, that's why I was so delighted when these two contacted me because, you know, I'd been doing many, many years of, uh, you know, experiments and started with, uh, an experiment by, uh, an NASA who wanted to, you know, reduce the stress levels of their astronauts when they moved into space.

And that's when that first experiment, that's when it showed how profound an effect. Uh, that these fractals could have on the body, that it reduces your stress levels by up to 60%, which is a huge amount for a non-pharmaceutical [00:21:00] approach to stress. You know, it, it's just in some ways seems too good to be true.

All that you have to do is look at these patterns, but of course then when you realize that, you

know, we've, how easy is that? Well, it took 600 million years to get to this relationship with them, and we should make use of

Avi: it.

ZOOM0002_Tr1: This is absolutely incredible. Uh, and one of the things that makes it work as far as I understand is that you've actually figured out a way of measuring

ZOOM0002_Tr4: this

ZOOM0002_Tr1: impact. Um, you call it devalue. Let's tell me what devalue is.

ZOOM0002_Tr4: Yeah. So, you know, we mentioned earlier that one of the special things about a fractal is that visual complexity, but you know, there's many different fractals out there and some are more complex than others.

So the way that we quantify that complexity is we introduce this,

uh,

A

term called fractal dimension, but we simplify it and just call it the D value. And what it's doing is charting the complexity on a scale between one and two. So the closer to one, the more [00:22:00] simple, the fractal, the closer to the two, the more complex.

Now the key. Thing in all of our story is that the most prevalent fractals in nature amid complexity. And so those are the ones that we've become fluent in. So those are the ones that we're making sure that when we are designing that we have that mid complexity to it.

And

then

when we expose people to

that,

That's the ones that we're fluent in. So when we see those, it immediately starts to relax us by this huge amount, and it boosts our cognition. So

when

we're designing a pattern,

Uh, for example, for

momentum, that's what we're aiming for.

But one of the remarkable things

about these fractals compared to an artificial shape, with an artificial shape, you have to have a choice.

Do

you want this shape

to relax you or

do you want it to stimulate you? The remarkable thing about a fractal

through our

600 million. Year journey is, it can [00:23:00] do both at the same time. It can relax you and stimulate you. So when we're choosing this devalue, that's what we're deciding, you know, how much relaxation and how much stimulation.

So

with the momentum ones, we have a slightly higher devalue than traditionally. And the reason why is because we don't just want it to relax you. We want it to engage you and keep you engaged throughout. Okay.

Avi: you know, that's what I love about this collection. And Martin, you set this out when you started talking about the concept of Reation, right? Um, this is what it means to bring nature back.

First of all, how do we bring nature back in spaces where it's hard to integrate nature, as you said, Anastasio one, right? Two, how do we do it with materials that are benign? So this is a PVC free collection, uh, you know, absolutely fantastic sustainability credentials. Uh, so we know these are good

materials,

right?

Then how do we integrate? This, you know, understanding about how pattern and color [00:24:00] and all of these things impact our physiology

and our wellbeing

as

human beings, so that when we use these resources to pull these materials outta the earth, turn them into buildings and put products in them, we're doing them with some positive impact on ourselves and

on

the

planet.

Right? And I

think

that's.

that's

coming closer and closer to how nature itself works, right? Nature doesn't waste, uh, nature creates multiple benefits, right? These are all things that are how this planet has operated for millions and millions of years, and we are just, you know, the little babies learning how

Richard: to

do themselves.

Avi: ourselves.

Martin: yeah. This,

this is what makes our design life so hard, because why would you design a nice

pattern

without.

This benefit? No, it's really hard to do. No,

because

in nature, nature does nothing without purpose. There

must be a

reason. So,

so

now,

yeah, this is the, the,

the

other side of the

coin,

we cannot not

only

be creative and design something we like.

No,

but yeah, you, you get [00:25:00] used to this

and, and

on the other side,

it's a super fulfilling way of, of creation.

Avi: That's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, all three of you for being here on Deep Green with us. It's been such a pleasure chatting with

Martin: you.

Richard: Yeah, thank

you.

Anastasia: Thank you.

Avi: Great. And thank you all for joining us.

this episode of Deep Green was produced in partnership with Momentum. and of course, deep Green is produced by the Surround Podcast Network. special thanks to our producer, Rob Schulte, as well as Rachel Senatore and Lauren Voker, who help all deep Green podcasts, come to life.

we'll be back, with more of Deep Green in just a few weeks whenever you get your podcasts.