In Moneyball, the owner of the Boston Red Sox tells Billy Beane, “The first one through the wall always gets bloody.” That’s where Kay Sargent stands today. As Director of Workplace at HOK and author of Designing Neuro-Inclusive Workplaces, she’s breaking through a wall our industry has quietly built — the unspoken assumptions about how spaces should work for people who think, sense, and process the world differently.
Neurodiversity in the workplace isn’t tidy. It’s complex, it’s personal, and it sparks strong opinions. Kay steps into that complexity with eight years of research, a career of leadership, and the lived experience of raising five children, some of whom navigate the world differently. She’s not just adding to the conversation — she’s creating a new category of it, one that challenges the safe, performative gestures and invites real, sometimes uncomfortable, change.
In this episode, you’ll hear how designing for the edges benefits everyone in the middle, why “one size misfits all,” and how even small, intentional changes can transform a person’s ability to thrive. If you’re in facilities, corporate real estate, design, or workplace strategy, this is more than a professional conversation — it’s a chance to rethink the spaces you influence, the people you serve, and the courage it takes to go first.
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[00:00:00] What if we're just getting it wrong? What if the spaces we work so hard to design are quietly exhausting Many of the people we claim to serve, not because we meant to do harm, but because we never stop to listen. Today's conversation is with someone I've admired for over two decades. Kay Sergeant, director of Workplace at HOK, and author of designing neuro inclusive workplaces.
Kay is a pioneer and a truth teller in our industry. She's helping the world rethink design for those at the margins, and in doing so, she's revealed something bigger, that when we design for the edges, we create spaces for everyone in the middle. In this episode, Kay opens up about what it means to be inclusive on purpose, not performative, not theoretical, real.
Practical, measurable. You'll also hear the story behind her book, [00:01:00]designing neuro inclusive workplaces, why she believes The greatest Failure in design is not knowing how our work truly affects others.
One thing you won't want to miss. How Kay Reframes inclusive design, not as a checklist or a compliance issue, but as an act of empathy and act of leadership and active restoration. This episode is layered. It's also personal, and it just might change the way you see the world around you. Now, let's dive in.
Kay: so, okay. Welcome to the Resilience Act. Thanks for having me, Rex.
I'm trying to think back when we first met,
I think it was in the 1990s, early 1990s in Washington, DC Yeah. And your career, you've always been a leading edge person. you've always been the best at the one liners, And I wanna revisit some of those.
Rex: [00:02:00] And
Kay: And then my lens for everybody is.
Rex: is
Kay: through how they're wired through the Clifton strengths. Yeah. And I pulled yours back up again and saw that the archetype that your five strengths creates is called a first responder.
Mm. That's interesting. Okay, tell me more.
Well, it means that you're really good in the moment.
You read social dynamics extremely well. You read interpersonal dynamics and you're really good on the fly, which makes sense, right?
Well, I am the mother of five kids and I am on the hot seat a lot in front of our clients and things like that. So yeah, you kind of have to be able to be a little nimble.
And I've watched you so many times. I mean, your magic is when you're on.
Rex: Right.
Kay: what does that feel like when the magic comes?
Uh, it, you know, it's interesting because I actually feed off of the audience. Okay. If there's somebody in the front row who's, you know, [00:03:00] grumpy and crabby, et cetera, uh, it can entirely change a presentation.
If the audience is in a good mood and they're laughing or whatever, it can almost become a comedy show. Like you, you just kind of, you know, feed off of that energy that is given to you. And I think it was a real challenge. Doing things virtually where you get no,
Rex: for
Kay: for you energy especially. Yeah. None. Yeah.
Rex: Yeah.
Kay: but you know, again, I mean, being the mother of five kids, you know, the fact that anybody will listen to me for more than five minutes is still shocking to me because my kids are always rolling their eyes like, yeah, okay, here she goes again. You know,
I get the same thing when
Rex: I
Kay: start talking about the strengths
Mm-hmm. People and the kids
go, well,
Rex: dad's,
Kay: we're gonna get a workshop for dinner
tonight. Yeah. so
Rex: with
Kay: that, uh, some of your favorite best liners for me, one of them is if you've met one autistic person, you've met one
that's actually Steven Shore.
Rex: Oh,
Kay: Oh, so
Rex: so I
Kay: I know who he is.
Yes. He actually [00:04:00] is the one that's said that, and we, we, a lot of people in this field are repeating that, but he's the one that deserves
credit for that.
Rex: Okay.
Kay: Okay. Second one, one size misfits all.
Yeah, that's me. Okay.
Rex: Okay.
Kay: Do you have one more that you can leave with everybody that you like?
Uh, when you design for the extreme, you benefit the mean
Oh, I love that one. Yeah.
I've heard it in other ways. So I've worked with a group called the Momentous Institute Yeah. in Dallas. Mm-hmm. It's a lab school for kids in at risk communities. They've been a pioneer for something called social emotional literacy,
Yes. and
Rex: their
Kay: part of that is when you design for the margins, everybody benefits.
Rex: Yeah,
Kay: I think that's actually true. I mean, it's kind of the curb cut analogy where curb cuts don't just help people in wheelchairs.
They help roller PLAs people on bikes, people with strollers, people with rolling bags, right? They really do benefit everyone and I think [00:05:00] when a lot of the principles that we talk about, that go kind of beyond just good design, they can really be beneficial to everyone in the space.
And it's almost like. You know, I've heard some architects and designers talk about sustainability is just good design, and it sounds like you're saying the same thing.
I, I would actually say, I would like to get rid of the word sustainability. Okay.
Rex: Okay.
Kay: Because who wants to just sustained.
Rex: Oh
Kay: yeah.
we want to thrive, flourish, thrive, whatever. And so we need to go beyond it. And quite frankly, I think we are the first generation that knows about climate change, but the last generation that really can truly do anything about it, like us and our kids' generation.
And what we need to really be, be able to do is help people understand that we need to go above and beyond just sustaining, that we actually need to give back and we need to do some regeneration to really kind of Kind of repair
some of the damage that we've actually done. Yeah. Right.[00:06:00]
Yeah. And healthcare is moving that way too from,
Rex: you
Kay: know, just treating the symptoms to preventative. It's,
Rex: it,
Kay: there's a huge mind shift right. Going on. You're part of that. and you've been a pioneer.
in
this whole area. How,
Rex: area. How,
Kay: how many years now?
When, when did that client ask you the question and you say, huh, I need a better answer.
Uh, it was probably eight and a half years ago now. Okay. Alright.
Rex: All right.
Kay: And uh, it actually happened in, uh, Dallas, Texas.
Oh, really? Uh, yeah, it did. And um, it really got me thinking like several people that we interviewed in the book. I think one of the things that is a little bit of a moment of shame for me, maybe something I have to reconcile in my life is I didn't do it for my own children. you know, and I think at that time, I, I don't know, I just nec I didn't necessarily equate.
The two. And we have a client that, you know, in the book, she tells a story about how, [00:07:00] the fact that she heard us talking about this, she said, wow, that sounds like my daughters went and got them both diagnosed and realized I am delivering spaces that my own daughters would not be able to work in.
Rex: Wow.
Kay: am I doing? Wow.
Rex: Wow.
Kay: And I think a lot of people have kind of had that realization of how are we designing for other people? Because I think we've all just sucked it up for so long and we just kind of assume that's what you have to do. We don't have to suck it up. We can actually create spaces where people aren't just struggling and masking and dealing with it.
And we can create spaces that people can really flourish.
and that's one of my hopes that,
Rex: you
Kay: know, the leaders you and I talk to mm-hmm. Their kids, their families. So one of the things, your book, by the way, it's designing neuro inclusive workplace
Rex: Places,
Kay: and I'm not gonna dive deep in the book because it, the material's out there, and I'll just tell you it just by the book it, [00:08:00]
Rex: and
Kay: I've gone back to it. Many, many times because of the many frameworks I'll talk about. Yeah. We'll, visit some of the frameworks that you've got. And for me, this was kind of a same thing you felt about your kids. I've got three kids Yeah. in the same zone. and I could not advocate for them when they were growing up. I didn't know how to advocate Yeah. We didn't. and, I was in a system that when you tried to advocate
it tried to put them in different boxes.
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stories in the book about, uh, my own children. Yeah. And some of the things that I had to go through and when I would step in as a parent and really try to advocate for them and some of the struggles that they went through, because this was. Not something that was really eagerly accepted or acknowledged.
There was some stigmatism associated with this. People didn't wanna be othered.
but I think that that is changing rapidly and I can't be happier about that. We need to start normalizing some of these things. Yeah,
for sure.
Rex: sure. Now.
Kay: Now
through [00:09:00] this, I know you didn't, begin with this, but trauma now has to be part of the conversation.
Yeah.
Rex: What
Kay: do you seeing and learning, especially because of the pandemic and. You know, I worked with a clinical psychologist through the beginning of the pandemic, right? who works with global mass disasters, you know, war torn areas, Yeah. and he was sharing with me here's what to expect,
Okay.
but what, what are you seeing and how does it play into the work you're doing?
Yes. So we wrote a report on trauma informed design probably about five years ago. And we pivoted it to be more around specific populations like, so the homeless population. and and then we started to pivot it a little bit more towards some of the, uh, justice work that we were doing as a firm and just some of those, those, areas.
But I think. Everybody went through a little trauma in COVID, and I think everybody now has a heightened sensitivity to things. I mean, you will never be on an airplane again when somebody cough or sneezes and not just be totally [00:10:00] crushed out by that. Right? Uh, we all do and I think we're much more acutely aware.
Of how some of those triggers in the built environment are impacting us. I still do believe though, that overall people's sensory intelligence is really low because we've all just had to suck it up and mask and pretend like that thing isn't bothering us. Right. And We've gotten pretty good at that, but it doesn't mean that it's not taking a toll on us and really negatively impacting our ability to either function or to be productive or to live a happy and, and, uh, wellbeing.
Yeah. Going back to the Momentous and they talk about it as cognitive load. Mm-hmm. So your whole body is taking on
load. Right.
And at some
point in time
it gets to a capacity level where it shuts down your prefrontal cortex,
Rex: and you're
Kay: spoons and you're in that vigilant or you're in that
Rex: fight
Kay: or flight state.
Right. And people's [00:11:00] capacities have fluctuated
The spoon theory.
Rex: My
Kay: My daughter.
Rex: Right.
Kay: right. So the talk to me about the spoon theory. Right.
Rex: she
Kay: tells me how many spoons she's used in the day.
Yeah. So the spoon theory is this notion that all of us have a certain number of spoons. Yeah. And we're not, they're not equally distributed, by the way.
Uh, but people that are neurodivergent or have been through trauma or you know, just have other, they're dealing with things, uh, emotional stress, they're bothered by something, financial issues, marital issues, whatever that might be. You might go through your spoons quicker, and once you're done without your number of spoons, you're done. And for some people that are neurodivergent, just getting to the office. Can take up a lot more spoons and a lot more energy than someone that is neurotypical. but you know, right now we are all being bombarded by 11 million bits of sensory information every second. I mean, how the fabric feels on your skin, the temperature, the lighting, the, you know, what's walking by you, the visual stimulation, all of [00:12:00] it.
you've now got my mind focusing on
Right. And, and, but we All those parts of my body.
right? But we just try to block that out because we can't handle even a fraction of that. And what might be annoying to someone that's neurotypical can be debilitating to someone that's neurodivergent.
Rex: Well,
Kay: my grandson, you know, sharing, he's three diagnosed with autism, but we have a ritual.
Rex: Sundays
Kay: we bring him down to the ranch, but we stop at McDonald's and when we go into the rest.
Rex: restroom,
Kay: he will not let me. Do the air dryers that just,
he just, it's a trigger.
It's a huge trigger. Right? He says pops no air dryers.
my daughter could hear the ballast or feel the ballast in the fluorescent lights.
Yeah. Yeah, my son is like that too. He's, he's very sensitive to those things. He picks up on things. I mean, about 10% of the population gets a headache from white noise because they are, they are actually hearing it, or it's affecting them in a way that it may not be affecting other [00:13:00] people. I. Um, so, you know, it's, it's hearing, it's visual stimulation, it's temperature, it's just all of those things that we're dealing with and we all have very different ways of dealing with that.
But we also have different ways of thinking. You know, some people can make decisions really quickly. Some people have to ruminate on it. Some people have a great memory, other people can't remember anything. Some people, um, can, you know, be very social. Other people really struggle with that. So. We're all different.
We're all unique. And I think what we're finding right now is when we started this, it was considered, one in eight was considered to be neurodivergent. Now the, the kind of the party line is one in five, but I don't think that's right. I mean, what we're finding is this is far more prevalent than that and it's actually probably maybe closer to one in three.
Rex: Wow.
Kay: not even higher.
Rex: Yeah.
Kay: And I agree with you there. We, we did some research on education
Rex: and,
Kay: and a few books there, and one of the things we found is
that
The education system is set
up for [00:14:00] about 50%
of our kids,
Rex: and then
Kay: another 50%, 25% because of socioeconomic reasons, Yeah. and 25% because of learning differences.
Right. it's just not designed
Rex: them
Kay: for them to succeed.
No. And again, as a mother of five, I, you know, as I started to tap into this more and more with my kids, they all have their unique ways of learning. And there are multiple stories in the book
Rex: I
Kay: about some of
the encounters Yes. That I had.
Rex: the
Kay: deadlines and the
Rex: and
Kay: Yes. Yeah. With, uh, the education system. But, but let's just take it further.
Rex: Mm-hmm.
Kay: Okay. I think in the world that we're living in today, we do a lot of presentations and one of the rules, you do a lot of presentations. Right, right.
Rex: Right.
Kay: One of the, the things that is commonly held in the presentation world is when you are presenting, don't have a lot of words on a slide, have a lot of images.
No, no. Not words
Rex: right.
Kay: that is totally biased towards people. That are auditory [00:15:00]learners, more people actually learn by seeing it and reading it. And a lot of people have to hear it and see it. Some people have to physically engage, like be moving, et cetera. But think about all the people now that are watching television with closed captions because it helps fill in the gaps and fill in the void.
And so they
Rex: actually
Kay: actually are not getting distracted because they, they did, they missed something they can track along, et cetera. And so. The, the entire presentation world is biased because your learning styles don't stop when you come out of college. And so we put words on a side. We don't read it verbatim, right?
But I am telling you what I am showing you and you can read it. And it is amazing to me when I am looking at an audience and how many people I can see, literally sitting there reading it verbatim to, to process it.
that's a mind
Rex: shift for me.
Kay: Yeah. I, I mean, the way that we're all talking, I mean, I would actually say.
You know the Golden Rule is [00:16:00] flawed. The Golden Rule basically says, do unto others as you want them to do upon you, and we should actually be doing the platinum rule, which is do unto others as they want to be done upon. I mean, one of the biggest challenges we have is this double empathy. Problem of assuming that everybody processes and functions like we do.
If I'm hot, you're hot. If I'm cold, you're cold. I prefer this,
Rex: right.
Kay: you know, you do. , And we need to understand that not everybody functions the same way and we need to understand people better and meet them where they are. Well, so writing
the book
Rex: is an
Kay: arduous
task,
Right? And I'm sure there are times you wonder. Why did I ever
say, I told you I was never gonna write a book, Rex. You always would ask me when you, when are you gonna write a book? And I would always say, I'm never, now you're sure there's,
well, well, we were at South by Southwest presenting. Yes. And a publisher was in the audience in approaches. And in all honesty, if my colleague wouldn't have been there, I probably would've been like, oh, ha ha. That's [00:17:00] nice. Thank you. Walked away. Um, he kind of glommed onto it and said, yeah, I think we should. And, uh, went to our ex-com and they were like, yeah, I think we should. And so we made a conscious decision to put all of the stuff that we had been learning out and
actually
for us, writing it wasn't that hard.
We wrote way too much. that was not a problem at all. We had lots of research that we could pull from lots of things, but it was the stories and all the interviews and the case studies, et cetera. and
I
don't know if I should tell the story or not, but I, I think one of my funniest moments was when our.
Chief Legal counsel, only three people read it. And because it's HOK book.
Rex: Sure.
Kay: Oh, h legal team, I
can't even imagine
Rex: getting
Kay: through that.
Right. Um, yes.
Rex: A blessing
Kay: and a curse. and they were fabulous and phenomenal, but our, our chief, legal counsel called me one day and she goes, Kay, have your sons read this book?
And I said, well, [00:18:00] no. I mean, they've read the parts that I'm gonna put in about them, but that's it. And they're like, she said, are they okay with that?
Rex: that?
Kay: I'm like, yeah. She goes, and they've signed the waiver. And I'm like, okay, now you're freaking
me out.
She goes, well, it's just really personal.
Rex: Hmm.
Kay: And I thought about it and I'm like, uh, okay.
So I went back to my son's, actually only one because the other two would not have cared, but I went to the one that would care. And I said, you know, you, you know, I'm putting this in the book. Are you all right with this? And he looked at me and he goes, yeah, I mean. Who's gonna read it?
And I'm like, well God, I
hope somebody reads it.
And he goes, yeah, but none of my friends are gonna read it. And I'm like, okay. Great. Well you just level set. Right.
Kay: in the process of the research and the writing, I'm sure there's some assumptions you started with that changed along the way.
Yeah.
Rex: Eight
Kay: of research and developing all that.
Yeah.
[00:19:00] So what were some of the big changes, some of the things you thought you knew, and then you get into it, you try to clarify it, you're thinking of the audience you're writing to and you say,
Rex: you
Kay: know what, I may have it wrong, or, my assumptions are now
changing. Well, I'll tell you the biggest one.
The title is a horrible title.
Rex: to
Kay: I've come to that realization. Did Wiley pick that for you?
No. No. They, I can't even blame them. Okay. Uh, I have to, I have to, take that on myself. Designing neuro inclusive workplaces. We wanted it to be clear what we were talking about, but first of all. Again, our chief legal counsel pointed this out to me.
We don't even talk about design until halfway through the book,
and
then it is far more than just neurodiversity and neuro inclusion. It's really about sensory processing, cognitive wellbeing, and creating environments where everyone. Can thrive. Not just people that are neurodivergent, but everyone can thrive.
And it's not just about workplaces. There's stuff in there about the scientific labs. Uh, there's some, a little bit in there about airports, but we originally wanted to have [00:20:00] chapters for all of the different sectors, sports and rec, healthcare. That would've been, you know.
Rex: you know,
Kay: Three times the, the, size. So, uh, we really kind of focus primarily on the workplace, but we do touch on a lot of other things and there are a lot of personal stories, uh, and we interview 20 different people and get their personal perspectives as well.
So, yeah, I think the title is the first thing I would've changed.
Rex: Yeah.
Kay: I realize. But, but you know what's funny, Rex, you know this, that's like the first thing you have to decide and they start. You know, putting that out there months in advance. So by the time we realized this probably isn't a good title, it's too late, that ship had sailed. Right. It's too late.
Rex: late.
Kay: Yeah. And that's the old archaic, you know,
Rex: print
Kay: based, Yeah. 15, 16
months. The process. The process. Wow. Yeah.
Rex: I
Kay: Well we did this with under a year.
Rex: a year.
Kay: Wow. From beginning of manuscript to, uh, they asked us
in March if we would do it. We did not agree until the end in May, and it was out the following [00:21:00] March.
Wow.
Rex: that's
Kay: fast.
Rex: Yeah.
Kay: Yeah. I mean, we, again, that's a lot of pressure though.
Well, we had, we had a lot of research.
Rex: Okay.
Kay: Okay. We were pulling from a lot of that.
Rex: So
Kay: So a lot of your work was
Rex: editing
Kay: and then storytelling,
weaving it together, filling in the gaps. Got it. but the other thing, I think one of the reasons I didn't really wanna write the book in the first place was I wake up every day and I learn something new.
And the challenge with putting out a book is you, you timestamp it. And so we were really. Kind of struggling with how do we put this out there, but keep it fresh and relevant. So we, we do a little bit of forecasting in here and we talk about how we think things are gonna change a little bit. But for some things we put a QR code in the book. Yeah. I've seen the QR code.
Rex: codes,
Kay: it's brilliant right? to do that Right? So because it's current.
right? And that takes you to some of the research that we did that we just couldn't fit into the book. But it also, you know, there's a living list of recommendations and it hasn't, it, it evolved [00:22:00] over years. It hasn't really changed that much in the last year.
I would say it's pretty solid, but somebody's gonna come out with some research tomorrow that's gonna shed new light on this. And I'm gonna say, oh, I wish I could change that. Well, I can. Because anybody that has the book can go and reclick on the QR code when they wanna see the latest version. And if anything has been updated, they can get it in real time.
And I really hope that. Everybody realizes we are in the middle of an evolving situation and we put this out there because we believe the industry needs to start coming together and we need to start sharing. It doesn't have to be perfect, right?
Rex: Yeah.
Kay: We have to put it out there, get people talking about this, get people excited and start continuing to build as this, we look at this as a foundation
now. let's go through some of the.
Rex: the,
Kay: the terms out there, there, and you're very careful not to want to create another
Rex: standard.
Kay: I know some of what you built Yes. is in the well building standard,
Rex: but
Kay: there's neuro inclusion, there's [00:23:00] neuroaesthetics, sensory-based design, evidence-based design. There's
Rex: the.
Kay: Lead certification. There's wellness. Yeah. Is there a red thread
Rex: that
Kay: we can begin, like you.
coming to some kind of, not standard language, but
some way is, is there a bucket? I can put it
all in. Yeah.
A way that we can be on the same page, Yes. moving in the same direction mm-hmm. for a common cause. Yes.
because all this new language that people are being hit
by. Yeah. that's another thing. I mean, the, the terminology over the eight years has changed radically. You know, it used to be that we wanted person first. Language, then it was identity, first language. And some people prefer one.
Some people prefer another. Some people might have a, a, an issue with this. Uh, I don't really like the term neurotypical. Calling somebody typical or average has never been a compliment. Right. You know, a divergent me like, et cetera. So, you know, I think there's just fundamental challenges with the language, but, you know, we're splitting a hair there.
I think if I were to put [00:24:00] this all in a bucket, all those things that you talked about, it is, intentional design. We need to have science-based evidence-based. understanding of what we are doing as designers. Every decision that we are making is impacting people, and the question is, are we doing it because it's cool and trendy and we just like it?
Or are we doing it
because I intentionally
want to be more inclusive. I wanna create an environment that does X, y, and Z, that it matches your persona and your portfolios. Like all of those things. There is a science to what we do, and we need to lean into that far more. I always say like in our studios when I'm looking at plans and test's, like, why did you do that?
And if you can't tell me a really good reason about why you have rows and rows of bunes, then I'm gonna go flying monkey. Right? Like, I, I'm just like, you know, we have to be able to justify this. And we are living in a time where in the last four or five years, this whole conversation [00:25:00] around workplace has been elevated to a whole new level.
Rex: level,
Kay: And everybody now thinks they're an expert in in this. And the C-Suite wants answers because they're starting to realize this is affecting people. This is affecting money. This has an influence. Why are we doing what we're doing? Why should I spend my money to do what you're telling me to? And as a profession.
We have to be able to be very intentional about what it is that we're doing and to be able to justify that so that people can move forward with confidence and justify it, and then we can continually learn and realize what's working and what's not. So
Rex: We've
Kay: got another
two hours to go Sure. in the conversation
Rex: for
Kay: me, I'd love to go down the rabbit
Rex: hole
Kay: hole on it, but
Rex: a
Kay: couple of things. How do we begin to shift the conversation? you know. I've watched a couple of your presentations and there's always a designer in the audience saying, where's the low hanging fruit I can start with?
Right.
Rex: Right.
Kay: And as much as I [00:26:00] know what they're saying, they're also saying, I'm helpless to change
Rex: the
Kay: conversation. How can, how can they help their clients, their organizations begin shifting? The awareness, the embrace of where we're headed
Rex: with this
Kay: and get in the ur the, the discovery journey. I mean, you've got an eight year discovery journey Right. My concern is from pioneer to bandwagon,
Rex: and
Kay: I'm starting to hear bandwagon and I, I get concerned about that.
Yeah. And there's a little neuro washing out there too, where people are, are saying they can do stuff and they don't really understand it.
That's why we put the book out. We made a conscious decision as a firm that.
this goes beyond a competitive advantage. There is a moral imperative here, and my true competition is not a well-informed competitor. They actually are helping to rise the tide,
Rex: right?
Kay: right? My true competition are people that are neuro washing and then clients and end users, [00:27:00] right?
They think this is, there's really nothing there. They're not doing it, well, or doing a disservice. My true competition is people that don't think designers and architects should be in this conversation. Hmm. And
there are those. I
Rex: I
Kay: didn't know that.
And my true competition is people that think that they can do this with artificial intelligence and they, you know, regenerative
Rex: generative
Kay: design can just generate something and it's just what I think is cool and trendy.
And they, they totally ignore the notion that we go through a lot of training. We have.
Rex: You know,
Kay: we have insurance for a reason. I mean, what we do is impacting people and we are trained and we understand it. I have been a practicing designer for 40 years. I have, you know, education, et cetera. I have credentials.
You know, this is not just me guessing and doing what I think is cool. This is leveraging all that expertise and.
Uh, PE
people understanding that there really is something to this, there is a science to what we do. [00:28:00] There is, an intentionality to what we do and leaning into that.
So there's a lot of people
Rex: who
Kay: are going to be, you know, this is either new or they're inexperienced
in this,
what's a conversation?
They can start
Rex: back
Kay: the workplace or in their design firm, architectural design firm, to begin to go down the journey, the discovery journey.
so we're on a road show to, educate the very first thing and we, we actually have created a roadmap. I dunno how to do this.
Rex: this.
It
Kay: it's in the book.
too. It is in the book. Yeah. and we talk about, you know, the number one thing that you need to do is just get yourself informed and educate. There's a lot of people that like, oh no, we don't need to talk about this, et cetera. Right. Usually after about an hour presentation, it's like the, you can just see all the light bulbs going off in the room as people are understanding what it is that we're really talking about.
but then, you know, and people do ask for the low hanging fruit, and part of that is because there is. Millions, a square feet of existing space. We don't always have the [00:29:00] opportunity just to start from scratch and do whatever it is that we want. And so I'm gonna take us back 30 some odd years and I, I can do that.
Uh, I remember when a DA first came out, it was very involved in a lot of that and spent years doing assessments. So when we. first came out with a DA and when we looked at that, everybody had to assess their existing facilities in S more, right? They stand. If I were to ask anybody today, are your spaces designed to be neuro inclusive?
Yeah,
nobody can really answer that question because, well, how do I judge that? How, what do I know?
Rex: Right.
Kay: Right? And, and right now there's a lot of people that are advocating for universal design and, and I love universal design, but it's been there for 30 years. It's aspirational and it tells us what we should be striving for.
It doesn't tell you how to do it so that that's not enough. You got that
in the book too. We go through all these different kind of
Rex: of
Kay: Right frameworks. We, we talk about the difference between universal design, inclusive design, equitable design. You know, we talk about and, and accessible [00:30:00] design and they're all unique and different.
Rex: Mm-hmm.
Kay: Um, but we need to keep elevating. and so. there Are clearly things that you can start to look at. There are some low hanging fruit, but we also came up with that checklist and that checklist where several of our clients has actually been used as a way for them to assess their existing facilities and to identify what they're doing and what they're not.
And then also what might have a big impact or a smaller impact, what might be costly or, you know, an inexpensive and what might be easy to implement or difficult. And then they can say, all right, in this building we're doing about 80% of these things we're, we're pretty good, but for the 20% that we're not, what should we be thinking about?
And then what's highly impactful, low cost, and easy to implement. Do that now. If it's, you know, maybe may a little bit more disruptive or it's gonna be a little bit more costly, maybe you bake that into a, renovation cycle and you do [00:31:00] that later. And for a lot of our clients, we're taking a lot of these guidelines and we're putting them into their guidelines and standards so that as they're rolling out spaces, they can evolve and go beyond.
Rex: one
Kay: of my favorite parts Here
Rex: here were,
Kay: were the six modalities and the hyposensitive hypersensitive Yeah. that was a big aha. Going through that.
Yeah. I mean, the book really for us to really, truly explain this, we also had to dive into all the research we've been doing on workplace. So this really goes far beyond just neuro inclusion.
it's it's all of that and it's the, the.
Rex: the, the.
Kay: The six modalities of work.
Rex: The
Kay: It's personas,
It's the personas, the spatial sequencing. I mean, our team has fundamentally changed the entire way we engage our clients to really lead them through a series of [00:32:00] discussions and exercises that will help us identify and target who they really are, what we're designing for.
What are the activities that they're doing? I mean, I would argue that in many cases what our industry has been doing over the last several years is kind of trying to drive design the average thing for the average person. It is the equivalent of if the fashion industry said okay. This year, everybody gets a size 10 gray unitard, man, woman, No matter what size you are, no matter what your preferences are, you all get the same thing. And we would never stand for that. But in many offices, you're walking into these spaces that you have zero control, zero choice or options and zero agency to do anything. And that's a problem. And so, you know, there are amazing spaces out there, but there are a lot of spaces we
need to improve.
Would you point to like one or two outliers that you say these organizations
Rex: are
Kay: getting it right, moving in the right [00:33:00] direction. one of my favorite quotes by William Gibson is The future's already here. It's just not evenly
distributed. Right. I love that one too. Um, we have four case studies Okay.
In the book. Okay. And, the four case studies are KPMG, fidelity, AstraZeneca, and
Rex: Arab,
Kay: Arup. And the Arup project that we did in Birmingham is an award-winning project. So this.
Rex: This
Kay: This isn't ugly design. This is, I mean, it is award-winning and we have, I was really proud of this. I don't, I don't know, when is this gonna air?
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a spoiler. Let, let's just say that one of the projects that we did got selected as one of the projects of the year by an outside panel of judges as one of the most prestigious projects we have done. And it is one that was done to just. Designed to be neuro inclusive, but there were things that didn't even make it into the book.
and we just came out with what we call HOK Forward, which is kind of an annual, here's what we're seeing, et cetera. And we carried on on this theme and we talk about our Ca Seattle case study. [00:34:00] And on that we tracked, we did a pre
occupancy, a
post occupancy.
Rex: assessments
Kay: did. Right. And we did biometrics. And the numbers are
really
staggering when you start to see this, the impact that it can have on individuals and not, that doesn't even account for just feeling good, that you're being a better person.
Rex: Yeah.
Kay: That's great. I wanna wrap up with
Rex: two
Kay: questions. Sure. What are the stakes for owners, you know, leaders who maybe have no idea that this is going
on.
Rex: Most
Kay: of the leaders are in my kind of era, Mm-hmm. a little bit old school. and so what are the stakes and, and what are the Yeah, well, let, let's just say that, it cost us much money to design intelligently as it does to design stupidly.
So let's just design
like intelligently. from the beginning. There's, there's no Cost savings. Yes,
and actually I would say it would cost you [00:35:00] more,
uh, and what it is costing you. People are worried about accommodations. Most accommodations, cost nothing. And some cost less than $300. And for our clients who we have done this for, they will say that it did not add a penny to the project.
And it might have added a little bit of time in the front of getting it right and educating their team and hearing the voices of their people. But it. Expedited the backend because they were so confident in the decisions that they were making, that they could move forward quickly, they could sell it more quickly.
They, they were more decisive about what they were doing. And so it didn't add any time. And I would ask, and when people say, well, what is this gonna cost? What is it costing you not to do this every single day? There are people that are. Being distracted, they're being irritated, they're losing their focus.
They're losing productivity. It's impacting their wellbeing. It's impacting their engagement.
Rex: Right? The
Kay: cost that you [00:36:00] are paying now for not addressing this is significantly higher than if you just realized this is impacting every single one of us. Let's just do it right and make it so that people can thrive going forward.
That's great. So we're back together a year from now.
Yeah.
What will you be sharing
Rex: with me?
Kay: with me? What, what's kind of on the horizon and what will we be catching up about?
Well, maybe I'll be a little better rested
in a, in a year from now.
Um, we have a lot of people. That are coming to us and asking us to do some research.
And so we're really excited about to continue the research and to, and to, push this forward. Uh, a lot of people that are wondering, how do we incorporate this into spaces, which is exciting. I think maybe one of the things I'm most proud of is, you know, I, I'm a workplace designer, so of course that's where I focus a lot of my attention.
But we have been collaborating with our sports and rec. Team, our aviation team, healthcare, hospitality, [00:37:00] justice team for years, and we have been having these conversations about how do we make all the spaces that we go to, more
navigable.
More welcoming, more inclusive, because we don't just go to workplaces, we go everywhere.
And so we're really expanding that. We're gonna continue to doing the research and we're hoping that more people will join us in the conversation. Not, running down a different lane, but let's all get in the same lane together. Let's share it and let's move forward together it as an industry so that we can go farther together.
I love that. Farther together. Or Now, I'll put a link in the show notes
Rex: on
Kay: how to get the book. And again, This is a huge reference resource, and when you read it, you're going to see uncles and aunts and brothers and sisters.
You're gonna see them all in the book and go, ah.
Rex, I, I have to tell you this, I ran into somebody [00:38:00] yesterday at one, one of the signings, and she had been at another one.
And I said, oh, you already have one. And she goes. No, I don't. Because I brought it home and my husband started to read it and then he gave it to his mother who gave it to the sister, like, you know, and
he goes, I don't even know where it is anymore. Right. Like it's making its rounds through the family.
Because I, think one of the things that's really interesting is everybody is affected by this. We all know somebody. Yes. All of us. And if it can help us understand.
How
people are functioning, whether it's a colleague, a spouse, a child, a, a, you know, whatever. I, I think it just helps us be able to lead with a little bit more empathy and we could use a lot more of that in the world right now.
Well, that wasn't just a conversation. It was a mirror. A mirror held up to the spaces we work in and the people we often overlook. So let me leave you with one question. What's the one truth you're carrying [00:39:00] forward today? Maybe it was Kay's quiet challenge that sustaining is no longer enough. We're called to design for flourishing.
Or maybe it was this simple, radical idea that inclusion isn't a gesture. It's not a trend, it's a design imperative. One that touches every space, every person, every moment, whether we recognize it or not. if you're asking yourself, where do I even begin? Start here. Notice. Notice the spaces that lift you up and the ones that slowly wear you down, then ask.
What might that space feel like for someone else? Listen. Listen. Not just to what's said, but to what's felt and often left, unspoken, the child, the coworker, the client, the stranger and lead. Even the smallest act of intentional design can be an act of dignity, because when you design for the edges, you [00:40:00] end up creating space for everyone in the middle.
That's the work, that's the hope, that's the future. We get to help shape. So whatever your takeaway today, I hope it stays with you. I hope it moves you from idea to action. Thank you for listening, for sharing, for being part of this growing movement, a heartfelt thank you to my team at the Surround podcast Network, Rob Schulte, Rachel Csar, and everyone working behind the scenes to bring this vision to life.
If this episode moved, you pass it on, and if you haven't already subscribe, drop a note. Leave a comment. Your voice and opinion helps us. Until next time, embrace resilience, stay curious, and lead with hope.
