On this week’s episode, we chat with Craig Robinson, Chief Growth Officer at flexible workplace provider, Industrious. With more than 20 years of experience in the commercial real estate business, Craig helps organizations to be more innovative in their approach to real estate by expanding their concept of “workplace” and providing greater employee choice while managing costs and risk. Join host Ryan Anderson and Craig as they discuss ways to support optionality, flexibility, and environments that promote belonging and purpose.
For more content geared to help organizations prepare for the future of work, visit https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/designing-better-tomorrow-millerknoll/.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
This is Looking Forward: Conversations about the Future of Work. Brought to you by MillerKnoll.
Ryan Anderson (00:18):
Hey, listeners. Today, we talk with Craig Robinson, the chief growth officer at flexible workspace provider, Industrious. I’ve known Craig for a few years now, but I knew of him and his impact on the commercial real estate world well before that.
Ryan Anderson (00:31):
In our conversation today, Craig brings his insights to not only explain what’s happening with the growth of flexible workspace, but he provides us his perspective on how we can navigate the ambiguity of the future of work with humility, embracing a learning mindset, focusing on people, and ultimately finding the true value that workspace can offer. Enjoy this conversation with Craig Robinson. Hey, Craig. Welcome to the podcast.
Craig Robinson (00:56):
Hey. Thanks for having me.
Ryan Anderson (00:57):
I’m thrilled to have you. Tell us a little bit about you and what you do at Industrious.
Craig Robinson (01:03):
Again, first and foremost, thanks for having me on. It’s good to be with you and your audience. I’m the chief growth officer with Industrious. I hope you’ve heard of us. We’re one of the most exciting, fastest growing, highest-rated flex workplace providers. We are operating here in the US and across Europe and in APAC. We had some exciting news, not too many weeks ago, where we made an acquisition of Welkin & Meraki in Europe and The Great Room in APAC.
Craig Robinson (01:32):
And so, we’re excited to continue expanding and growing to service both small mid-size businesses, as well as global enterprises. I’m responsible for all of our sales, marketing, business development and all things quote, unquote, “Growth related”. Part of being on the executive team, I have the fun of helping us think about our strategy and our direction as a company more broadly. That’s what I do nine to five.
Ryan Anderson (01:59):
I’ve known you for a little while. I think I’ve known about you for much longer, because you’ve had really a fascinating career. Particularly, in the world of commercial real estate. Do you mind painting a little bit of a picture for how you got from the early stages of your career to where you’re at now?
Craig Robinson (02:13):
Absolutely. Thank you for saying that. What I heard you say is, “I’m old.” If you do something long enough, eventually you’ll do one or two things good along the way. Oftentimes, when you hear about someone’s story and their biography, it just seems like it was this perfect walk in the park. It’s so easy to draw a straight line through a scatter plot, but mine has been anything but that. But I’ll tell you the clean version.
Craig Robinson (02:38):
I really have been in the commercial real estate space for over 20 years. Started my career in technology, and then transitioned into real estate. Most of that time it’s really been in the real estate services space. Commercial corporate real estate outsourcing with firms that you’d know like Trammell Crow, CBRE, Colliers and Newmark and all the others. Really, have had a lot of fun helping to build and scale and do exciting things in the real estate services space.
Craig Robinson (03:08):
And then, really just over the past few years, became really excited about where I thought the industry was headed. Having been a division CEO and president at a few of the large brokerage companies, I really thought it’d be great to take what I’d seen and learn in the analog era, and apply it to companies and business models that were trying to do things really different. Which really brought me to PropTech, and let’s just call it more specifically flex, in the case of what I do in my operating role.
Craig Robinson (03:40):
I do sit on a few boards and advise a few PropTech companies. But it really is an interesting thing, when I think about myself as a Gen X-er. I sit between two really interesting generations and demographic profiles that everyone studies. No one really cares about the X-ers, but we sit in between the old guard of the Boomers who really have largely been responsible for a lot of the growth we’ve seen in our industry. And then, there’s the Millennials and the younger people who are coming along and really changing things and challenging business models. And so, as an X-er, I feel like I’m sitting in between them.
Craig Robinson (04:21):
I’ve spent half my life and career learning and practicing my craft in some of the traditional things. Now, I spend a lot of my time thinking about where the hockey puck is going. How can I support people in industries, in businesses, and people like Jamie Hodari, who’s the founder and CEO of Industrious, to really take advantage of some really fundamental and exciting changes in our industry as it relates to how we think about the built environment and how we think about the future of work? That’s my story. It’s been quite the ride. And I still have a little bit more left in me to go. Hopefully.
Ryan Anderson (05:00):
That’s good. I definitely want to talk about those changes, but knowing that some of our listeners might come from the world of human resources or IT … Do you mind defining PropTech? That’s a term that we got into a little bit in Season One, but some of our listeners might not know what that means.
Craig Robinson (05:16):
Absolutely. Prop meaning property, and technology meaning technology. But I think it’s really just a shorthand for any and all things that are innovation-related as it relates to … Not just property, to be honest with you. It really relates to all the things that encompass and house and enable and support work, and the supply chains and the systems and the providers who all play into that.
Craig Robinson (05:43):
But there has been, really over the past … Call it 10, maybe 15 years. A lot of capital, a lot of entrepreneurs who’ve been looking at our ecosystem and saying, “Gee. There are just a lot of things that we could be doing better.” Problems that we’ve solved in healthcare and financial services and other industries, where the technology’s been proven, the business models have been proven.
Craig Robinson (06:08):
It just makes sense to now come and say, “Wow. We could do this thing very differently in commercial real estate. Or in the workplace, more broadly.” I do think workplace is the intersection of real estate, IT, and HR. Although we’re talking about PropTech, this technology and this innovation really applies not only to folks who traditionally had commercial real estate careers, but also people who had traditional HR careers and technology-related careers.
Craig Robinson (06:38):
Everyone is now being called to task and say, “How do you support and enable distributed work?” There’s a technology answer to that. There is an HR policy answer to that. There is a real estate component to that. And so, I really see the fusion of these discrete trades and functions now being called to really solution a much broader set of needs. And so, the integration that I’m excited about sits right there at the nexus of all of those players. Guess what? This is not just a support function thing. This is really things that CEOs and board directors are thinking about. And so, it’s a really exciting time to be sitting at that nexus.
Ryan Anderson (07:21):
I’m glad you brought up distributed working. I think often about the fact that work has been spreading out. It’s been getting more distributed since wifi came around. I think the pandemic and our focus on remote working was a reset for a lot of organizations. Realizing the technological possibilities of working in a variety of locations.
Ryan Anderson (07:41):
I’m not sure most have fully reconciled or even begun to reconcile what a more digital approach to working means to the spaces that they’re in. I know you’ve got a tremendous network within the real estate world. What are you hearing? What challenges are you sensing that organizations have top of mind at this point in time?
Craig Robinson (08:00):
It’s a really exciting time with not a lot of historical data to really draw meaningful insights. I think the world has pivoted in the way that is creating a lot of opportunities for people who are nimble, progressive in their thinking, and open-minded. Regularly taking their pulse in terms of where things are headed. And it’s got to be really nerveracking and disruptive for people who are still waiting for the old data sets to make sense again.
Craig Robinson (08:28):
“Well, this is the way we’ve done things. And this is the way we manage people. This is the way we hire people. This is the way we house people. This is the way we planned our businesses.” I think the uncertainty and the volatility is giving rise to an increased demand for optionality and flexibility. Not just in terms of your commitment to space, but your commitment to the way in which you organize around customers, and the way you distribute information. I’ll just say at a really macro meta level, there’s just a lot of change. I think part of what I am seeing a lot of organizations do is become students.
Craig Robinson (09:05):
If you’re an organization that’s learning how to learn, and how to learn from your customers, and learn from the people you want to employ, and have a feedback loop that allows you to incorporate some of those insights … These are the companies that, regardless of what their policy is on a certain topic or issue, I think they’re coming at it from a place that’s probably more informed and more intentional. Versus being purely reactive and just waiting to see what everyone else does. Which is why I think you could have companies see the exact same issue and come up with different policies, different tools, different approaches.
Craig Robinson (09:38):
Which I think is totally fine. There is not a right answer. I don’t even want to be a person who says, “Hey. I’ve gone up to the mountaintops. Come back with stone tablets. Here’s the answer.” That’s not the case. Here’s what we’re seeing. Here’s some of the things that I would tell you I’m seeing. One, as it relates to the evolving future, because I don’t think the future is an absolute discrete thing that we’ve pinpointed. But I think the general direction of where we see things moving is that … One, companies are going to be quote, unquote, “Forced,” to really support a more dynamic hybrid set of options for the employees that they want to attract and retain.
Craig Robinson (10:18):
These employees and this talent, they’re going to want optionality in terms of where they work, how they work, when they work. They want that work to really matter and to align with their values and their purposes, so it’s not just work. People who are coming and generally looking for more things out of their companies than they did before. But the part of the equation that we support was, “How do we help companies provide optionality?” Not just optionality in terms of where they work, but the different modes of work that they might do inside of a space. Different work types and different spaces.
Craig Robinson (10:50):
Some of the research that we’ve done just in surveying our own members who come, thousands of people who come in and out of our spaces every single day, is they’re telling us, “Hey. Generally speaking, I’m going to decide when I come into the office. When I come into the office, it’s going to generally be probably two to three times a week. And it’s going to be when I need to meet with people, collaborate, build relationships, build trust. Do all of those things that are really hard to do digitally.”
Craig Robinson (11:19):
There still is a really important role for physical proximity and space, but it’s going to be a lot more intentional when I come into space and the things that I’m going to need from that space, in order to facilitate the things that I want to accomplish. Number two. People generally, whether it’s retail, whether it’s hospitality or the office … When they come in, they’re really looking for an experience. People could do work at home in their dining room table. It may not be the most productive environment, but it actually is not that I need a space to do work.
Craig Robinson (11:47):
I need a space that facilitates what I’m trying to do. I also want spaces that give me an experience. And so, being very thoughtful about that. I think that is a big direction in terms of where things going. And then, I think the third is at a company leadership level. I think our planning cycles and horizons are getting shorter. There’s more uncertainty. Are we headed into a recession? Is there another strain of COVID? We don’t know. And so, how can we as an organization embed and incorporate more options in all that we do?
Craig Robinson (12:21):
More agility. More flexibility. I think that is going to be a theme that just cascades. Not only throughout the way we think about real estate and the building environment, but really all aspects of the business. And so, for those of us who are excited and learning and listening and embracing that, I think this is going to be a great opportunity for breakout moments. And I think for those of us who are a little bit more like, “I don’t know. Maybe this is going to go away. I’m going to put my hat up.” I think that’s going to be a problematic seat to sit in.
Ryan Anderson (12:50):
This emphasis on first embracing being a learning organization feels so right to me. I’m going to butcher this, but there’s this really old quote from a German philosopher. I think it was Schopenhauer that said something to the equivalent of, “The goal isn’t to see what nobody else has seen. The goal is to think what nobody else is thinking about that what everyone is seeing.” I do think we’re all staring at this. What you’re saying makes sense.
Ryan Anderson (13:13):
Let’s first agree that we’re going to be on a journey. We’re going to learn. We’re going to prototype. I love the focus on optionality. It also made me think a little bit about the focus on intersectionality within the DE&I community. Because I think, from a real estate standpoint, there’s always been this focus on wanting to categorize workers as this or that for the purposes of occupancy planning. Not realizing that the criteria that might go into a decision on where someone will work on a given day goes way beyond your job function. It’s all aspects of who you are and what your life might entail.
Ryan Anderson (13:45):
Hey, friends. We’ll get back to our episode in just a moment, but first I want to take this opportunity to let you know that Looking Forward is part of SURROUND, a podcast network curated by SANDOW Design Group. SURROUND brings together some of the best architecture and design-driven audio content available. So if you like what you hear from us, visit surroundpodcasts.com and check out some of the other great shows on the network.
Ryan Anderson (14:07):
I want to ask a little bit about the spaces you provide. And in particular, I have heard over the last … Gosh. I think I’ve been looking at co-working for almost 15 years now. The terms co-working and flexible workspace. Often used interchangeably. You and I both did a little stint at WeWork. We have a little bit of shared heritage there. How do you describe what it is that Industrious is doing? What’s the difference between those concepts?
Craig Robinson (14:36):
It’s a really good question. The truth of the matter is the vocabulary and the overall taxonomy of our ecosystem of flex is evolving. Some people, like yourself and I, who live and breathe the stuff every single day … You kind of check in and check out. You don’t keep up with just the evolving way in which we think about this space, but you’re absolutely right. At the highest level, when I think about flexibility, I think about flexibility in terms of choice. In terms of where I work. Do I work inside of a building that’s provided to me by my company? Do I work in a building that’s shared with other companies? Do I work in my home?
Craig Robinson (15:18):
And so, largely we’re talking about an ecosystem of choices. And then, as you and I are talking about, when I come into a building … What are the different types of spaces that I might need? It used to be that, to your point, I largely had a job and that job was considered more or less highly correlated with a certain type of work and nature of work that was highly correlated with a space type. I was assigned a space type based on me working in HR or me working in whatever.
Craig Robinson (15:46):
The reality is, we now know that people over the course of the day might need three, four, five, six different types of work spaces. Spaces to convene, spaces to host, spaces like heads-down, spaces to have small meetings. And so, having different types of space types inside of even a single location is flexibility. And then, I think about the way in which we package and sell these space types. Generally, people have said co-working is a shorthand for just shared working space, which it oftentimes was highly correlated with open plan environments. Or shared but private offices.
Craig Robinson (16:32):
I think the way we think of our product set and skews are there are really different sizes of team configurations. You may have a person who’s coming in for just a day for a few hours, who’s doing traditional hot-desking, and would use what we would call an access pass. I just need the access to the space for a few days a week or a few days a month. That would just be on demand. Then, you have what we call private offices. A private office generally could be for one person, for two people, for three people. However many people needed to access that space. But it would be private and secure.
Craig Robinson (17:09):
And then, what we have is for larger teams. Typically, over 15 or 20 plus. You start getting into what we call, “Suites,” and that generally then connotes a different type of programming. Different things that we would put in that space and teams of that size would expect. But broadly speaking, all of it is just in the broader service of options and flexibility. I need options and flexibility to have on demand. Maybe a team that starts off with one or two people, but scales to 10 or 15. And then, maybe over to a team of 100.
Craig Robinson (17:43):
And then, one of the last ways that we’ve been really seeing the taxonomy expand is this idea of core and flex. We have organizations who will in the same building have a five, 17-year lease, for parts of their business where they’ve got a lot of certainty and a lot of predictability. But then, not know whether or not that need is going to grow or contract or expand. And so, providing flexibility around a core commitment.
Craig Robinson (18:12):
We can come in sometimes and provide flexibility along someone’s long-term commitment, where they have the ability to have a suite or private office adjacent to their lease. And so, that is also too the way in which our skew set is evolving. The key for us is just to continue iterating and providing more options for people to use space in the way that makes sense for them. I think that all falls into the umbrella of that flex. And that’s the way we think about it. Outsourcing your flex needs to folks like us. Hopefully, people start thinking of it that way versus just coworking.
Ryan Anderson (18:49):
Well, I think it’s this last part that you just described that a lot of people don’t even know exists. There’s opportunities not just for individuals or small startups, but for large organizations to determine that part of their real estate portfolio will not be committed to long-term leases. Because we know it’s been a hindrance in the past.
Ryan Anderson (19:08):
There’s certainly parts of Asia where we’ve seen shorter lease terms, but it wasn’t too long ago that the standard lease term in places like Dublin was 15 years. I can’t imagine trying to figure out what to do with a small growing team in a market like that, where I’d have to commit to that long-term of a situation. It reminds me a little bit, just on a personal level, as somebody who loves to travel.
Ryan Anderson (19:30):
We’ve never doubled down on a cottage, even though I live in Michigan. We live near Lake Michigan. I want that flexibility to go someplace different every year. And so, making that commitment to a space for a rapidly changing workforce … Including a workforce that seems to be migrating as a result of more distributed working. Feels like a commitment a lot of organizations wouldn’t want to make at this time.
Craig Robinson (19:51):
It’s interesting. There seems to be generally three buckets, or call it use cases, driving the adoption of flex. One is an organization is scaling really fast. They’re hiring a bunch of people. They’re trying to move into a market really quickly, because they see an opportunity to launch a new product or a new business post-COVID, which has really dislocated a lot of incumbents. It has given an opportunity for companies to say, “Wow. This thing is really taking off. We want to spin up a business and we want to launch a new concept or a product.” Or, “We want to recruit and access talent that we don’t have.”
Craig Robinson (20:29):
And so, speed to market and agility is important. And in that use case, a lot of times you don’t know how something is going to perform. You don’t know if this is going to grow 50%, 100%, 300%. Or not be there in two years. And so, that’s one of the big use cases that’s supporting and driving flex. The next use case is, there are companies like you and I just talked about. “Hey. I made a 15-year commitment. Wow. The world has changed. My business has changed. Employees are not even coming into this space and I don’t need the space anymore. I need to figure out how I get out of these big commitments.”
Craig Robinson (21:01):
And if the lease is rolling, maybe I just need something smaller. But I don’t really even know how much I need. I just need less of it. If I can continue to whittle down my footprint, I will. Or distribute that footprint. And so, there’s organizations that are expanding. Those that are contracting. And then, the third is a really interesting use case, which is those who maybe are doing one of the two, but they’re really looking for space to do something strategic for them. “Man. If we’re going to really attract or retain a certain type of talent, our space has to really show up differently.”
Craig Robinson (21:33):
We would love for our brand to really be reflected and our values to be reflected in our space. And if you walk into our space today, you don’t see anything that even remotely resembles the company we want to be. And so, we want to invert our built environment with doing things in a more experiential, more inspirational, more aspirational … And so, those are really fun customers to work with. Because you have permission to really invest in things that … For many years, real estate was a cost of goods sold. People figured out how to spend less and less and less and less on it.
Craig Robinson (22:04):
But now people are saying, “Actually, I want to be efficient with my spend, but I really just want that spend to do more for me.” That’s exciting. Because now, I’m buying value versus cost. But in either way, people are either looking to create lots of agility in terms of speed and scale, looking to be really efficient with their footprint, and/or looking for real estate to do something really different. All of those are use cases that we see driving our business and I’m sure the flex industry, more broadly.
Ryan Anderson (22:33):
What you just described is maybe one of the things that I’ve observed held flex back in the past. If an organization does have that core and flex mindset … We know that organizations often want to invest in their core space, maybe it’s their headquarters or whatever, in a way that really reflects their culture, their aspirations.
Ryan Anderson (22:54):
It feels like the sort of spaces that were available say, five, ten years ago were either so vanilla and so cheap that you didn’t really want to put your people there, or so strongly branded by the provider that it didn’t feel like it reflected your organizational culture. How do you navigate that with clients who want to use a space, but they also want it to feel somewhat like it’s them?
Craig Robinson (23:15):
It’s a great point. You and I have been around long enough to have heard some of those complaints. It’s a difficult line to walk. Between having a repeatable, scalable product with the need and desire for people to have something that has really bespoke and highly tailored to their unique operating environments. And so, I think what we’ve tried to do is really try to, one, give organizations enough options. To really make sure that the look and feel and the brand … It’s clearly your space.
Craig Robinson (23:49):
You want your employees to walk in and feel like, “This is our space.” The underlying economic agreement underlining that space is really irrelevant. But at the same time, really being able to do something repeatable and scalable, such that the cost really makes sense for that organization. We try to walk that line between giving people choice, so that it does feel like it is a part of their ecosystem and not our ecosystem. It’s not our brand. It’s your brand. There are ways in which we do that.
Craig Robinson (24:19):
Obviously, it’s their branding. They have the option to pick some of their furniture. Having things integrated digitally with their spaces. And so, there are ways in which you can do that. While at the same time, when you go into an Industrious, there’s a certain standard. There’s certain things that you’re going to see. I think customers also want that. They want to know that there’s some predictability, in terms of the experience I’m going to get with you. I’ll just say, there are going to be folks who want something fast and cheap.
Craig Robinson (24:46):
There’s nothing wrong with that. There are providers who do that really well. And there are going to be those who want something that is highly serviced and great quality space. It may cost a little bit more, but people really see the value of that. We want to be able to support those guys as well. But I think it’s a really good point. Are we in the outsourcing business? Or are we in the product business? Are we in the services business? Or are we in the product business?
Craig Robinson (25:09):
I think there’s a healthy tension between those two things. But no matter what we do, we just need to be in service of what the overall customer demand is. To your point, they want space that feels like it’s really tailored for their needs and their uses. And at the same time, affordable, cost-effective, and agile.
Ryan Anderson (25:29):
As that Gen X bridge. By the way, I am one as well. Sometimes I …
Craig Robinson (25:32):
I wasn’t going to call you out on that.
Ryan Anderson (25:35):
Knowing that you’ve seen a lot, but you’re also looking forward a lot. If you had to maybe get past this current era of contentiousness over return to office, or all the headlines around hybrid … Think five, seven, ten years out. What excites you or concerns you about the ways we’ll be working down the path?
Craig Robinson (25:56):
It’s interesting. As I get older, you’re supposed to be wiser. You’re supposed to know more. Theoretically, you could accumulate a body of knowledge that just makes you the Plato, Socrates, or whatever it is. The reality is, I’m actually finding it to just be the opposite. The older I get, the more I realize I don’t know. The more experiences I have, the more curious I am. One of the things that I have found is that I love to read. I love to read particularly books about human nature and organizational behavior and history. Some of the things I tease together.
Craig Robinson (26:29):
It turns out that we’re horrible for predictors of the future. I can remember back before there was flex, it was AWS. Alternative workplace or alternative workplace solutions, which was largely about desk sharing and things like that. There was a scenario. I remember some research back in the early 2000s that said, “Hey. We’re going to go from 300 square feet per person to 275 to 200 to 150.” Eventually, there won’t be any square feet per person. Eventually, we’re going to go to nothing.
Craig Robinson (26:59):
People predicted the end of office a decade ago. And it turns out that’s not happened. We’ve been wrong. We’ve been consistently wrong. What has happened is that we actually probably use more space. We just use it really differently. We use it in ways that people found it hard to imagine and predict on average. And so, what I would just say is … What I’m super excited about is the humility that I think we are bringing to different scenarios. With that humility comes, like Rumsfeld, “I know what I know. I know what I don’t know. I don’t know what I don’t know.” That kind of thing.
Craig Robinson (27:39):
And so, how can I incorporate enough optionality such that I have lots of different ways in which the future could play out that I’m prepared for? I think about that in my role at Industrious. I think about that in terms of my customers. And I think about that in just terms of a philosophy. How can we be excited about the future, but humble to the idea that I don’t know what that future looks like? But I have paid for a number of options that give me permission to participate in a very exciting way. No matter what happens. And so, that’s what is really exciting to me. Just enjoying the ride. Knowing that I don’t know the destination.
Ryan Anderson (28:23):
I love that approach. You’re making me think a little bit about a quote that I lean on a lot from futurist Paul Saffo, which is, “Never mistake a clear view for a short distance.”
Craig Robinson (28:34):
Ryan Anderson (28:34):
Now, I would agree. Often, we don’t have the clear view. But I happened to be reading what was a report on work from home, its challenges and what was needed to better support it, that Herman Miller did in the late 90s. I picked this up a couple weeks ago and was reminded, “There was some things that team didn’t know.” But I think we all sometimes think this stuff is maybe happening faster than it is, even when we have a point of view on it.
Ryan Anderson (28:59):
Well, let me ask you this as we move towards a close. Given what you’ve done and what you’ve seen throughout the world of real estate. If just hypothetically, you found yourself going and starting a business outside the industry … You were doing something totally different, and you had the chance to design your own workplace strategy. What would you do? What kind of spaces would you create? What would this feel like?
Craig Robinson (29:21):
Wow. That’s a really good question. I think the parts and the components of whatever it is would be, I’d have a lot of choices over the course of the day, over the course of a week, over course of the month. It’d be highly experiential. Meaning that workspace would make me feel a certain way. And then, the things that I would love is that this space would really allow me to connect and build community with the people that I work with and I collaborate with and I serve.
Craig Robinson (29:55):
Because I think at the end of the day, the human, the homo sapien just needs a few basic things. One of them is a sense of belonging. The need to be a part of a community. I think that would be a really important foundational element. The second thing is the need to really feel like I have purpose and there’s intention. And so, a lot of what I would want to imbue in my work environment would be this sense of purpose.
Craig Robinson (30:20):
And the third would be the ability to really foster and accelerate growth. I think those are things that we really need as humans. I would want that in my space, because I’m an X-er. I always imagine that there will be some physical element to all of that, and that you’ll need to actually be in proximity. I think those are the things that would really get me excited.
Ryan Anderson (30:41):
I love it. Craig, I’m super thankful you’ve chosen to spend some time with us and our listeners and share your insights. Appreciate you being on the podcast, my friend.
Craig Robinson (30:49):
Thank you for having me. Look forward to coming back again sometime.