Does nature design things?

This transcript was made in part by an automated service. In some areas it may contain errors. 

Ella: The need for speed.

welcome to Sense of Space, a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with.

I’m Ella Hazard.

Faraz: And I’m Fraz Shah. And I think we’re gonna break all the rules, but the good thing is that they’re all made up anyway. Uh, we have a special guest. You wanna introduce yourself?

Carolyn: Yes, I’m Carolyn Noble. I am an interior designer who focuses on color, material, finish, sensory design, biophilic design, all in between.

And I have been collaborating with Turf for about five years now. And it’s been an amazing process to work with Turf Design and especially with bras.

Faraz: yeah I mean This is the fun part is that you make all these friends and then everyone gets a chat and we have a bunch of talented Really smart people to get together to help us do better things.

Carolyn: is. It is interesting. I feel like I continue to read more and more about co creating and working with say, smaller enterprises or consultants like myself and Turf is just, that’s just their DNA. That’s just who they are and what they’ve done since the company started.

Faraz: Yeah. Well, you know one other thing that’s in our DNA my habitual YouTube rabbit hole

That was a smoothest segue I could come up with

Ella: I’m into it. But I also, I will tell you for us, that like, before we record, like, in my head I play like a little game, I’m like, what is it gonna be today? And is it anything related to our topic? And if not, like, I never, I can never guess

Faraz: Well, you know I do my research and I think YouTube’s algorithm knows me well enough now that it must know that we’re about to do a podcast recording. Um,

Ella: Just sends you some little like, chunk of gold from the universe.

Faraz: exactly, yeah, from the internet and, you know, from however long ago. Well, you know, it worked. It struck gold again. Um, so I was watching this video that was, uh, it popped up in my feed.

It was about this group of guys. They actually happen to be skateboarders doing, um, an episode for vice.

Ella: Mhm.

Faraz: Where they were going down the historic Route 66, so they started, uh, in Santa Monica and then drove their way to Chicago.

Ella: Is that where it

goes? It goes to Chicago?

Faraz: yeah, like, actually, like, the beginning is, well, beginning slash end, is right in the city in Chicago and also in Santa Monica Pier.

Ella: Oh, that’s cool. I knew the California part.

Carolyn: I, know, I always think of like the endless desert stretch.

Faraz: yeah.

Well, that’s exactly right. And I think for me, that’s what started to like, really drive some of my, my thoughts. I was thinking like, man, this is kind of like a really cool nostalgia trip. These guys were talking about the, the change from historic Route 66. And then after it was decommissioned, and I think the mid 80s, where you had a completely different landscape of what you would drive through from, You know, if you were in the sixties and seventies, you’d go through all these small towns.

They, I think they called it right. The main street of America. Cause it literally went through all the small town main streets versus the modern highway system, which is just further off. Um,

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: And if, if you haven’t heard me talking about my, my road trip last year, you probably haven’t spent more than 10 minutes with me because I talk about it a lot, but I, I drove, you know, from Los Angeles to, to Chicago, drove the way back by myself and There was something about that, maybe it’s a sense of adventure, but there was also I think just this appreciation for the natural landscape driving through parts of the country that were sometimes barren.

Sometimes they felt like otherworldly, but there were things that I didn’t have in the Midwest, right? Where there’s so much sprawl and everything, even in, in, uh, in LA and New York, right? Like either of those coasts, like it’s so developed, you just don’t have much of that natural environment. I don’t know.

It got me thinking about that. And I don’t know, I just wonder, like, what is it about that experience that kind of feels good? It feels right.

Ella: is it about like the, the, the difference? Is it about like the vastness of like, or like reminding yourself that like, your experience is only one of many? Or like, maybe I’ll get real patriotic here, like understanding like this is an amazing country. Like it’s huge

Faraz: Yeah. Well, and that was something too, that, you know, you think about when you drive, it’s, um, I don’t know. It’s such a peaceful, kind of calm when you’re in between everything else that, right, obviously the scenery is, is stunning, but the fact that it’s not the hustle and bustle, the fact that there isn’t, [00:05:00] you know, traffic, right?

You’re just literally out there on your own. Um, I don’t know if you guys ever done like road trips like that.

Ella: Yeah. I drove from New York to L. A. when we moved out here. That was like

Faraz: That’s long.

Ella: We did it in four days, though. It was real fast. We didn’t, we made one stop to the Grand Canyon. Like, looked at it, it was like, yep, that’s big. Got back in the truck and kept going. So, no, but it’s actually funny that you mentioned this.

I was just texting one of my nieces this morning, right before we hopped on. I think I’m, I’m, I’m curious about this whole van life thing, you know, 10 years late. Um, but I was thinking to like rent one. There’s this cool app I found where you can rent somebody else’s van life. And I

was like, do you want to come do this with me?

And was thinking about doing some of exactly where you just described. So if you have any pointers of like

where

Faraz: do. I have

Ella: good places to stop are, I would

Faraz: beautiful places to stop. What about you, Caroline? Have you ever done a road trip like that?

Carolyn: Not quite as dramatic. Um, when we moved from Cleveland to Atlanta, we put all of our stuff, I mean, we had a moving truck, but, um, all of the, I don’t know, the things that you take in hand and drove it in a, we still think this is hilarious. A Toyota Prius with two adults, two dogs, all of our stuff. If you’d have saw like.

The way that that thing,

Faraz: Oh, this was like hooked up to a tow hitch.

Carolyn: no, it was, it was very jam packed. Uh, we felt like it should be a Toyota Prius commercial for other reasons. Like, look at how much crap we can put into this tiny little car.

Um, yeah, so that was probably it. But I was thinking about it as you talked to, as you were talking about your road trip for us, and then of course, almost hearkening back to the name of your podcast, sense of space.

Is part of it, like a body awareness? Um, I just had a trip to Vancouver, which was incredible, and it was via air. There was an air airplane and you know, you think about six, seven-ish hours from Atlanta and you’re in a completely different place. The topography is different, the air is different, the humidity is different.

The um, foliage is different, the trees are different,

Faraz: it’s not 100 percent humid.

Carolyn: it or not, interestingly enough, outside of Vancouver, it is considered a rainforest. They get

250 inches of rain a year. Yeah, it was really amazing to realize. But with the quick, although six or seven hours certainly feels long, it’s quick on the body. And when you talk about driving from like Los Angeles all the way to Chicago, or Los Angeles to New York, I feel like is your body catching up a little bit physiologically, like having the chance to, you know, if you’re thinking about senses, absorb the space that you’re in?

Is there more of a presence or an awareness of that rather than, click, I’m here.

Faraz: if you gave me the opportunity to, well, you know, assuming I had all the time in the world, drive versus fly. Every time I would drive. Every time.

Ella: kind of what you’re describing, Carolyn, I’m gonna make up a word, but it sounds like, kind of like, physiological or like, environmental, like, jet lag, right? Like, it’s not like a time difference, but if like, what you’re saying, Faraz, is if you’re choosing to drive, you’re actually letting yourself experience all the things along the way, and like, Kind of immerse yourself in that.

I always notice like when I’m in like a very humid place and I come back to Southern California, like my body has this like, I like, I want like a bathtub full of like lotion. It’s just like so dry here. Like my hair is different, like I have curls, right? So it’s just like all of these things that like you have to adjust on one end or the other.

You’re really right about that. I’d never, can we make up, we need to make up a term for this.

Faraz: Yeah, there’s

Ella: Is there one?

Faraz: geographic acclimation. I don’t know

Carolyn: Oh, geographic acclimation. Wow. I feel like that’s the next program on Nat Geo. Yes.

Faraz: this one stood out to me Was I was thinking about like all the moments that like you’re talking about like you can kind of just take these things in take those moments in and Conveniently the theme of this this podcast is hold on Let me scroll over to my mirror board. Does nature design things, right? We’re talking about biophilia. We’re talking about the feelings of like nature in the built environment and how that affects your sense of space. It just really got me thinking about some of these biophilic principles where you’re trying to take elements from nature, right?

The stuff that feels really good when you look out at the, you know, a desert sunset, Like, how do you bring some of those feelings into maybe an urban environment where you spend all your time during the day at work? Or, I [00:10:00] won’t even say your home, but like, I feel like there’s, there’s some of those elements too.

But

Ella: Yeah. with the idea of, like, transit, like, I realized in planes recently, I spent a lot of time, when I graduated from RPI, they have this cool, um Program or like research center. They’re called the lighting research, uh, something lighting research center but they were doing a lot of studies about circadian rhythms and sort of uh, like ambient lighting and like the shifts and transitions and I noticed like on airplanes if you’re on like a long Flight or red eye or whatever Where it becomes dark, they will like, literally sunset you with color now, and then like, sunrise you again in the morning.

It’s fast, and I don’t know that that actually works. I’d be curious to know anybody else’s opinion. But I start to see some of these little hints, like, that is technically like, a biophilic or biomimetic approach, right? Does that count?

Carolyn: well, I definitely think it counts and it’s funny, Ella, I’ve noticed the same thing I have to say, so while I think it is definitely a step in the direction, you know, say a, a Europe flight, for example, when those lights come on, it is like, Whiplash,

you know, maybe something a little bit more gentle.

Um, but it is interesting because, you know, in, in residential, um, I mean, like the hatch and others that are not just, um, sound to wake you up, but light that comes on, um, and the ability to change what that light might be. be. and then again, I think about circadian lighting in the built environment and how.

you know, the Well Building Institute, for example, advocates for what they call the right to light or daylight so that we’re all exposed to it. And can you layer in a circadian lighting system so that as it, you know, as the day starts the light feels, you know, very, you know, vibrant and you know, the color of sunrise, for example, is, is different than the color of sunset.

And then throughout the day, it starts to become a little bit more muted and soft. To help with that feeling of, it’s time to go home. It’s a, it’s a transition time. Um, and it helped, it truly can help support the body’s circadian processes, which of course would be sleep based, but also so many other things are happening chemically within the body when it is supported by that light.

Faraz: Well, and it’s not just light too, right? Because I didn’t whenever we were doing some research for some of our other TERFs to use, which for any of our listeners who don’t know. Carolyn is like the collaborator who is responsible for almost all of that research. Um, so this is one of the reasons why we brought you on, but I know when we, we were looking at some of the, um, like sensory design and wellness based research that there are physiological effects that come from what people perceive and see in a space.

And, you know, lighting is one part of it, but I don’t know, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what, you know, about what, how the body reacts.

Carolyn: Yeah, it’s absolutely true. So I, I feel like when we first started hearing about biophilic or even biomimetic design, Um, I don’t want to say that it felt like a fad, but it felt a little bit like, Oh, okay, here’s the next big design trend.

Or it was done very literal or done in terrible ways.

Like a plastic plant. Ooh, I’ve got my plant check still here. Um, But then really looking forward and thinking about how biophilic design really can support physiological processes again. so, I’m a big fan of terrapin bright green. And they, really work through what they call the 14 patterns of biophilic design.

Again, I think plant life is a great place to start. It’s alive. They’re healthy. They absorb CO2 and other off gassing. Some plants can even absorb some sound and of course, you know, kick back oxygen. So all of the good things. But when you think about layering in those 14 patterns, that could be the presence of water.

Which could be literal, it could be the presence of water that you can hear and listen to, um, say through a fountain or another thoughtful treatment.

Faraz: I’m having flashbacks to mid nineties shopping malls.

Carolyn: Oh no, that’s,

Faraz: No, that’s a good, that’s a good flashback.

Carolyn: that’s a good flashback when we all used to go to malls. Um, but you think about that presence of water could also be done through a tile pattern or a mosaic or through color. You know, the other thing I always try to remind about biophilic design, I think one of the most important components And one of the things that can be overlooked is that it really should be a celebration of the local materials and the local place.

So, um, you know, how can you bring in, you know, the, maybe, I’m in Atlanta, and there’s actually a lot of granite deposits. So can you bring in [00:15:00]natural stone? There’s a lot of greenery here. Can we bring in that greenery to the inside? Textures, can we bring in a wood texture that might be native here, um, as a species?

So these are all ways that you can bring in biophilic design. And then what happens, um, there are study after study where our cortisol rates might actually lower, our heart rate might lower, our productivity increases. And I have to say too, for someone who is neurodivergent. And again, for all of us, um, but for someone who has neurodivergent biophilic design is proven to help with feelings of connectedness, groundedness, and belonging.

Faraz: Well, and it’s like, there’s these kinds of components that are a little bit more like restorative, right? It’s helps you kind of center and recharge a little bit.

Ella: I have a question that I’m not sure if I believe what I’m about to say, but I’m gonna ask a dumb question for the sake of the conversation. I’m sitting next to me, you can’t see this, but there is a pile of plants that I just purchased at the nursery. So I’m a plant lover, and a former plant murderer, but recovering, and so I’m a big believer in having, like, it’s a jungle in here where I live.

Uh, and I realized that, like, Your point about like things being local and the vernacular makes a ton of sense to me. I realized that I grew up in like the wilderness in a really rural place in Vermont and was like constantly outside just like a filthy little like rugrat kid running around. And I realized that in my apartment in Los Angeles I feel like I’m trying to like recreate the wilderness experience inside and which is kind of silly and then kind of my question.

But for me, caring for plants that I’ve realized is helpful for me and my self awareness and my self care, like, if I look at my plants and my, like, everything’s looking rough and ragged, and I’m like, oh, they’re thirsty. I’m probably thirsty. Like, do I need water? Like, like, they’re an outward reflection of sort of what’s happening inside of me, and it helps me to kind of self regulate the actual act of care itself.

But I’m also kind of curious about, like, I ask myself this question as I continue to purchase and move more plants inside. Like, why don’t I just go outside? Like, I do that too,

but like, why does it feel good? Or like, is it, I don’t know, should I be thinking about, like, since I live in Southern California, places and ways to design things where I can actually be more outside?

Or is it still valid to bring the outside in? And like, is that a helpful thing? Do you think?

Faraz: I feel like it’s still valid to bring the outside in, right? Because I mean, if you’re at home, I feel like the, the ability to have that choice to go out is different than, let’s say you’re in a workplace, or you’re in a school, or some other environment where you just don’t have that level of autonomy to go just dip out,

Carolyn: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s definitely an and, um, another statistic, uh, if you haven’t heard this, we spend 90 percent of our time as humans inside, so, which is a little bit

scary and scary. You know, I think it was the other, I, another statistic, it’s like within the last 300 years, all of humanity has spent this time in, you know, not, not this amount of time inside, but we were largely nomadic prior to, so, or outside.

Um, so I think it’s fine. I, I’m the same way. Um, I have a ton of different plants. Faraz has actually heard me talk about. Uh, some of like, um, no, but, but I’ve gone through the gamut, like, again, living in Georgia with, I mean, wow, like the bugs that show up, hey, oh my God, like, uh, yeah, so, um, you know, it’s interesting when you talk about caring for a plant, it’s also like, You know, finding new remedies and, and ways that you keep them healthy, whether it’s something like neem oil, which is also, yeah, so, um.

Ella: got one in the bathtub right now, having its weekly name soak.

Carolyn: Yes.

Faraz: is. I feel like I’m, Like a plant serial killer. Like, no, I don’t even want to kill them. It just,

they happen.

Ella: It’s okay. I used to be that way.

Faraz: So it gets better.

Ella: It can.

Carolyn: uh, something from my childhood, my, uh, my grandparents owned a farm and a greenhouse. we were always around plants. Like it is just a love of mine. Um, so yeah, I mean, I bring plants in the indoors. I bring them outside. I think it’s great to, you know, not everybody is process. Not everybody has the ability to just go outside during the day.

So why wouldn’t you bring in those, that feeling of those

plants? Mm

Faraz: you grew up in a more rural area, Carolyn, Ella, same, same

for me. And somehow we all ended up in like major metro areas. We got Chicago, we got LA, we got Atlanta. And we’re all

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: to like,

Ella: Recreate our

rural existence.

Faraz: exactly. Recreate our youth.

Carolyn: That’s hysterical and Fraz knows this as well. I have a, like a walkout, I mean, it’s [00:20:00] Atlanta, you know, it’s, it’s not the sprawl of the suburbs we have here, but I have a walkout and it’s like obnoxious the way it looks right now, like end of summer. Plants are sad, they’re overgrown, and it, I mean, almost every square foot I’m trying to grow like a tomato, or herbs, or flowers, and it’s, yeah, so it’s, it’s haphazard September.

Yes.

Faraz: you know, I kind of wonder, I mean, is this, um, is this an urban problem? Like is the, you know, the need for like using biophilic elements in the built environment? Is that really something that’s centered around like urban areas? Or is this a more universal problem? And

Carolyn: That’s a really great question, Yes.

Ella: or seeing as I, like I read algorithm shows me things about the term rewilding

Faraz: I feel like that also needs to be a poster. It’s like my algorithm shows me things.

Ella: My algorithm knows. Yeah. Right.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: No, but rewilding of urban places where, like, we’re learning or thinking about how to integrate nature or sort of bring back some of the, like, the vernacular that you’re talking about, Carolyn, in terms of, like, plants, uh, creatures, like, which would create an interesting soundscape and, like, change, like, all of those, um, things.

I guess attributes of, of an environment, right? The air, it would change the humidity, it could change all kinds of things as we figure out how to integrate that with buildings and with our built environment, right? Like,

can they live together?

Faraz: I think Caroline, you mentioned this too, right? Like bringing in things that, um, feel contextually relevant to your, your place, your

Carolyn: Yes. Absolutely.

Faraz: like, even thinking about sound, like we were talking to, uh, Kim Terry, Kim from intertech for some research on our CU a while back earlier this year, and they were talking about like this idea of using sounds from nature.

If you did that in a place that had no visual representation or visual context of nature that that could feel really jarring, right? So like if you were in a, you know, an office with, you know, white walls and no natural elements, you start hearing birds like you would,

you

might,

Carolyn: You’d be looking for the bird. You would be, your heart rate might actually increase because of

Ella: Yeah,

Faraz: Yeah,

Ella: like, where is it?

Faraz: is it coming for my lunch?

Ella: yeah,

Faraz: But this idea that it is all contextual and then, right, it’s the idea that it depends. Right? So what do you have that you can see? What do you have that you can smell? What can you hear? It’s all of those things working together, I think, from a natural, uh, or from the perspective of kind of bringing those natural elements in, rather.

Ella: say you’re coming in from the outside. Is there like a way that you can think about like, things being like sort of more wild and like public spaces?

And like, can you tell a nature story that kind of helps to delineate space? And like, what programmatically spaces are trying to be or should be used for?

Like, we’re like, I don’t know, some places might want to be dark and kind of Quiet, but like it might be more active and, and loud and sort of public or gathering communal spaces.

Like, like how, how could you use nature or a biomimetic or a biophilic approach to kind of help shape that, I

Faraz: Oh, I think you’re, you’re 100 percent spot on, honestly. Like, even like the research that Carolyn was doing for our next CEU, which will probably be out by the time this launches, there’s this element of choice. And like, you’re providing these options throughout your environment where you could lean into certain aspects of whether it’s, um, nature influenced or just work style influenced.

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: kind of programmatic shifts in the space, but it allows somebody to move throughout an office or to move throughout another environment and find something that resonates with them, right? Because I think that’s a, while maybe at a, at a higher level and correct me if I’m wrong here, Carolyn, but at a higher level, I don’t think that nature and other biophilic elements hits the same for everybody, right?

Some things are going to resonate more or less.

Carolyn: are going to resonate more or less. And, you know, when you’re thinking about layering in a soundscape, um, it, it’s interesting for us. And I’ve been talking about this for years that it’s not always a still or quiet environment that everyone responds to. And when you think about sound in nature, it’s dynamic.

When you think about sound, if you really were to stand in the middle of nature away [00:25:00] from, so, the places we grew up, away from our bustling cities, and you listen, you’re going to hear layers of sound from animals, the biophony, anthropony, of course, is people sounds, and then the geophony, which of course is the sound of nature itself, rushing water, the rustling of leaves in the tree from wind.

And then when you think about it, it’s this actually this really bold, beautiful sound that we’ve evolved with as humans beings. We’ve just talked about, you know, we were so nomadic up until this, you know, past few hundred years or so as humans. And so that sound is actually inherent to all of us. So how can you take that and contextualize it in the built environment?

As Faraz said earlier, it’s not just as simple as bringing in sound into a space through a natural sound or water. We talked about water. the fountain in the mall is funny because it’s, there’s no, it’s like, oh, wow, there’s a fountain and we’re in a mall. Um,

yeah, but when you start to contextualize sound.

And you think about the fact that we all work, so speaking of an office specifically, we all work differently as people. We all have our own preferences and our preferences will shift in a day depending on the project, the function, who you’re speaking to, what your, what’s your emotion that day? How are you feeling?

So we feel that we can have a soundscape that’s adaptive to all of that. Something that’s dynamic, something that, you know, Ella, you are talking about conversation areas, areas for assembly, where a little bit of noise is actually a good thing. Um, and, and then on all the way to, you know, a place that is, you know, very comforting and acoustically, um, sound absorbent and performing so that you can have that quiet moment or concentration in your day.

Faraz: I’m not sure if the sound is part of this, but there’s that, um, I think it’s called Savannah theory. this concept that genetically through our, I guess, evolution as a species, we’re reacting and responding to these things almost involuntarily. And then like our, our body finds calm or finds peace and in some of these, uh, sounds and sights and things like that.

And that there’s some even like how we perceive threats and how we perceive safety in the built environment or somehow connected back to how we were as more nomadic organisms. Yeah.

Ella: It’s like a kind of a primal and an involuntary response that we have. I guess like, yeah, I was just, actually as you’re saying that, I was also thinking back to like the beginning of the conversation about the, the term, what was the term that we invented?

Geographic

Faraz: shit. Geographic out, uh, acclimation.

Ella: acclimation. I was thinking about, so when I gotta go back to home, to Vermont, like we have like a pond on our property, and so when you like, it’s quiet at night, but it’s not, like the peepers and the crickets are really loud, but it’s like a different kind of loud than like, you know.

bottles and cans rattling around and like dump trucks where I currently live In downtown los angeles, but like it’s it’s unnerving for me It takes me a few nights to be able to sleep Well when it’s like different quiet or different noisy there and like kind of like the darkness Kind of freaks me out for a few days until I remember.

So I wonder if it’s like what you’re saying about the Savannah theory is like, we, like, we almost have to kind of retrain ourselves to like be cognizant or sort of aware of how that’s actually like, or that that’s happening. Right. Like, cause by that theory, like the, the peepers and the frogs and the crickets should make me, that should be comforting.

And it is after like four days, four nights there.

Faraz: After you’ve re acclimated.

Ella: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Faraz: yeah, but I mean, I think that really speaks to the fact that for you and like your context now, the norm and the thing that doesn’t bother you at all is the, the cans and people yelling and right. And all of that stuff rattling around in LA,

but like, that’s your context to base off of where your geography is and like the kind of cultural norm or societal norm that’s in that

particular region. And I, I feel like that’s a, whenever we think about biophilia is like a, an architectural or a design tool, right? It, it gets generalized, like put some wood on it, right? Like, it’s like that Portlandia episode, like Put a bird on it.

Ella: on it. Yeah, totally.

Carolyn: on it.

Faraz: It’s like, we’ll put some wood on it, put some green on there,

you know, and check you’re done.

But it’s really, I think it’s a lot more nuanced of like, okay, well, in, you know, Southern California, is there plant life that feels native? Are there colors in the landscape that you want to carry in or textures that you want to bring inside that [00:30:00] help you feel calm and welcome and safe? Which could look and feel very differently in, you know, Vermont or

Ella: Well, I think, I think you’re right. It’s nuanced and in, in, in the contextual aspect of it, it’s also like you have to be really, it sounds like, intentional Yeah.

Faraz: that seems to be a trend. intentionality and people? No, but that like you you want to make sure that you’re designing things or taking cues that all make sense together So that like you’re not sort of jarring or there isn’t a dissonance between like what you’re seeing Versus hearing and like that you’re kind of playing to all of the senses really intentionally.

Carolyn: It’s like good design disappears and bad design

Yes.

Faraz: Do you guys have any examples of

of really Bad

biophilic design

Carolyn: I mean, again, I live in the Southeast, but there is a, there is a, and I don’t know where it is. I know that there’s different geographic growing places, but whenever you see the palm tree in someone’s yard in Northern Georgia, you’re like, what, what,

Faraz: Is this like their rainforest

Carolyn: What are you doing? Like this is, this is not meant to be here.

I mean, it’s just so out of place. Like, I don’t,

Ella: Yeah, I don’t, I think we had, so actually to your point, Carolyn, about plastic plants, I will not get into too much detail about this, but early in the days of ventures with Armstrong, Moti and I did a whole research sprint around different ways to include plants.

Faraz: Oh Interesting

Ella: Indoors and thinking about it as like an acoustic treatment and like really wanting we’re coming right off the pandemic and wanted like everybody had been at home like, you know, planting their things away

and like

Faraz: that’s a real that’s a very very real thing.

Ella: Yeah. But like what, what, speaking of bad design, we did a big, huge research sprint and kind of talked to people and realized that the places that we wanted to put plants were hard to maintain and it wasn’t going to be an easy thing to do. And so the answer ended up being like, if you wanted, if we wanted to do this thing, The best thing to do was to make like a more natural, more organic, more trimmable, like moldable.

Artificial plant that was also, we were thinking biodegradable. So that’s not, you’re not actually creating more trash, but I think we kind of had to have a moment and like reconcile with ourselves was like, is that something that we want to do? And we were like, no, I don’t think we do. That like like bad design.

but it was helpful to like, learn where to put our pencils down and say, okay, this is the thing that will be successful. We think in the market, but it’s not actually something that vibes with our values and what we want to make in the world.

Faraz: you know, with people working from home, right, by preference or by choice and creating those sanctuaries where, like, there was plant life that was living, it was healthy.

I wonder how much of that is affecting interiors and, you know, the design of these spaces now. Right. We’re, we’re coming into this cycle where I think there’s new design that’s been happening post COVID. What do you guys think?

Carolyn: I can see it. And I also feel like Faraz, it reminds me a little bit when we went to Milan design week It felt like immersive plant life, like everywhere, not just the plants on the shelf tucked in the corner, or a plant wall, or the, you know, ficus

Faraz: They

were like pavilions of pavilions that had just these entire massive, um,

Carolyn: 30 feet high trees,

yes,

Faraz: Yeah.

Someone had created a, uh, like a secret garden

of bamboo trees.

Carolyn: oh, so beautiful. like you had to go

Ella: inside of it?

Faraz: Yeah. Like they had a, black. kind of cage fence that was around the booth and by booth I mean like

huge but um, so the black kind of faded away you didn’t see anything but then lining on the inside were all these very tall alive bamboo trees so to to enter into the space here you had to go through the the entrance of the booth but When you go in, they had their arrangement of like outdoor furniture on like gravel and a lot of these places that brought in real grass and all you would see are the trees, right?

You wouldn’t see the fence. So you were in this completely immersive, natural environment.

Carolyn: And, and walking in it was almost not a true, but I mean, it’d be interesting to see the plan. It felt like a nautilus

Faraz: Yeah. A

Carolyn: this, like

very

organic. Yes. Yes. And not in a, not in a dizzying or contrived way, but just in a very, like, you felt like you just kind of floated into the space. It just felt like such a natural approach.

Faraz: I have mixed feelings about it. [00:35:00]

Carolyn: plant life at NEACON, and when you think about the immersive approach, I think that is very cool. But I also loved some of the little touches that we saw. I felt like Technion did a really nice job of having like what I would say are little places for plants that you could actually keep alive, you know to your point of

the Yeah real plants, but also Manageable truly manageable in in workplaces.

So I thought that was a nice touch that You want to have, you know, again, your plant life, but it has to be realistic. I mean, talking about some of the care routines that you can have at home for your plants are, are great. Not every company can hire a service that takes care of those. And I just thought that was like a really great, productive way to bring plant life into a workspace that was manageable.

so

Ella: don’t remember which booth it was but there was One of them that had, like, a pretty, like, big, like, uh, landscape, I’ll call it, outside of their booth. And they had, like, this thickened portal, and on the portal, on the walls and the ceiling of that was, like, this really cool material.

I don’t remember exactly what it was, but it was, like, kind of potpourri, like, dried flowers and, like, hay as, like, a wall covering or treatment. Mochi and I were walking around and I like literally walked up to the wall and like smelled it. I was like, Oh my God, it smells like hay, which somebody with allergies and maybe not the best

experience for them.

Faraz: some

Ella: Yeah, right. Anaphylactic nightmare, but No, but I I loved it. I was like, wow, it smells like sweet. It smells like hay. It smells like this was kind of amazing and I But it was also beautiful to look at. And so I thought that was kind of an interesting thing. I don’t remember

Carolyn: That’s so interesting, though, again, to me thinking of, okay, what is the term again? Geographic acclimation. So I, your experience was so positive and with everything growing up in Vermont, again, hay barrels would be, you know,

Midwest, Ohio, bugs, but it’s, it’s funny how everybody, you know,

Ella: Response

Carolyn: Yes, I would wonder how that response would be depending on your interaction with the place

Faraz: So know your audience. I mean, what are some other like non plant related, like biophilic tactics that the designers can take into consideration as they’re designing their space? Like we’ve looked at. Like wood texture, that’s been a thing, you know, turf recently launched stone textures. Like we’re taking kind of those visual textural elements into the space. else?

Carolyn: think stone textures I have to just spend a moment on it it’s been such a great project And again when we think about biophilic design, it doesn’t need it shouldn’t be literal It should, it, I mean, when we’re talking about feel inspired by the outside in, and that’s one of the reasons that I think Stone Textures has been such a successful launch, is it was, it’s, it’s more of an interpretation of what stone is.

Um, thinking about. The, the actual texture of it less than what it is, you know, it’s an interpretation of marble, an interpretation of granite or travertine, and you take down to the elements. So thinking about other, you know, surface design, it could just be more elemental what you see, you know, river rocks, for example, or textural stone.

How do you bring that in more interpretive less literal?

Faraz: that’s good. I feel like whenever, like, as you observe design, I think particularly over the last maybe 10 years, you’ve seen a shift from literal, very cheeky interpretations of nature in, in space where you’ve, you’ve seen people creating trees out of other things. Um, or birds out

Carolyn: Birds.

Faraz: and it’s like the intention I think is good, but the execution may not be there where the effect seems a little bit more whimsical rather than like a, like a positive biological response.

Ella: it whimsical when people are trying to to do exactly the opposite of what Carolyn just said when they’re like trying to like recreate something out of a different material and so like you inherently kind of sense that it’s false rather than

being sort of gestural or suggestive or evocative, right?

Like, we have, like, our spidey sense, can tell us those things, but if you’re not trying to do that, then it’s more authentic to it being its own thing and not trying to be something that it’s not. Does

Faraz: for sure I mean carol and I’ve been working on like the texture since like 2019 [00:40:00]

Ella: Yeah,

Faraz: Okay. So yeah almost five years since the started when we were collaborating and that was a real part of the the conversation early on was Like, we were working on a line of printed wood textures that brought in some of those biophilic elements, and one of the decisions very early on was to not take a photograph of wood and print it on felt, right?

But because it was like, okay, yeah, like there’s an authenticity to the material and authenticity to the approach, so that you’re not designing something trying to be. would, but there’s a little bit more of a story and a narrative behind why it looks the way it does. And I think we did that even to a greater degree with stone textures, but for us, at least on the manufacturing side, like that’s a real consideration that we take.

Ella: like luxury vinyl tile that looks like wood drives me insane

Like they’re like when you go to a hotel and you go like see that like planked like fake wood floor I’m like and it’s like peeling up you can like see the thickness of it, right?

You’re like stub your toe on it You’re like, uh, why is it like why are we doing this? Why did we do this?

Carolyn: Uh, made of like the least sustainable material possible. Yeah.

Ella: yeah, and I guess like given some of the work that we’ve done around circularity and like From a manufacturing and a design standpoint, like that’s really curious to me. I guess I kind of think about like, what is the new vernacular of natural when what we’re like, when ultimately what we will start to create is out of like the previous materials that we’ve used and how, like, how does that, like, what is that aesthetic?

Cause it’s its own thing, right?

Faraz: I think you’ve actually brought up a really interesting point. there was that, um, TED talk in our, our homework from, uh, from Matt Morley. And he was talking about this idea that we, as a society of like inadvertently inherited problems. Because of, you know, material or chemical choices that people who have created the built environment have made, right?

So, if you have chosen to use LVT, and that building still has it, Or, you know, some other thing, right? The next generation or the next users of that space have inherited it or inherited the negative effects of it, which I think is super interesting. the awareness to make smart and wise choices now, not just for you as the occupier of that space, but who comes next or what comes next.

Ella: Like generational design, right?

Faraz: Hmm. Mm

Carolyn: Yes, and how you can truly repurpose, reinvent, take back, use new. I’ve been thinking so much about circularity in design lately. And I wonder if there’s if we couldn’t as architects and designers create a new design phase Which is the exchange between project? I mean if we are all working in this industry as collaborators and partners, and even if that’s working in conjunction with say the the former tenant or the former architect and designer and Reimagining and reinventing and repurposing and reusing as much as possible.

Um, it feels like there could be a new phase to design that’s a circularity phase.

Faraz: I think there’s some, some groups that are doing this on a small scale. Like I’ll even put a plugin for a Chicago based nonprofit called Design for Dignity, and they will actually take. As an example, we had baffles and acoustic product from the turf showrooms in the last couple rounds. And instead of going to trash or to recycle, we donated all of the product and the material that we could to Design for Dignity.

And they found a partner, whether it was a nonprofit organization or community organization, they matched it up with a design firm and were able to kind of connect the dots so that that product had a second, third life.

Ella: we also worked with recently a company called Reaply, that’s also Chicago

based, that does this. But tech platform that basically is that sort of central marketplace, more for building content than building components, but I think they’re branching out into those things, which I think is a really interesting idea because the hardest part of all of this is trying to figure out how to incentivize that, like, and I think that.

Figuring out the economic, um, economics of the circular economy, like how do you, how you find and derive value, like that will be the, the carrot, I think, that actually leads people to want to do these things. Because right now it’s cheaper just to throw things away.

Faraz: Yeah. Cheaper to throw things away or cheaper to get whatever the next thing is.

Carolyn: and, scary. It’s cheaper sometimes. In some cases, I, I read an article recently in the New York Times about furniture waste. As we all know, it’s, it’s, you can have a amazing sofa and it will be cheaper to purchase something new than just to reupholster. Which is crazy. It’s just

so disposable. Um, I was going to say another great non profit.

Zero Landfill?

They’ve been going for over a decade, and I know it’s very locally, it’s, it’s really very [00:45:00] much bootstrapped, but I know I was involved in Cleveland and now Atlanta, where it’s more of a materials sample site. And, um, I know Atlanta’s, I think ours is probably coming up soon.

It’s usually seems like it’s the end of summer, early fall. And we’ll all gather materials at, um, a couple of the local manufacturers and then they sort things and almost create, uh, almost a, a free store, if you will, for, For artists, for schools to come in and yeah, and then to repurpose materials in other, other completely different uses.

So I know there’s a lot of material take back programs and, you know, they can be clunky and, you know, designers libraries get pretty full at, at, at this stage of the year and zero landfills are very cool way to help with some of that material sampling, um, supply access.

Ella: Consumers are becoming more savvy about this. I think you see like groups, like, uh, like buy nothing groups on like Facebook and like places where there’s like barter or exchange of things rather than trying to buy something new or to create things that are disposable.

But I think in that same article that you were referencing, Caroline, the New York times one, it’s also talking about even though it’s cheaper to buy a new couch, like oftentimes, like. Things, the materials that we’re using today like particle board or like plywoods or things like that. Like if you can find an old couch, it’s actually made out of hardwood.

It’s

actually a much more durable. It’s way better. they were talking about also, you know, some of the You know, foam, for example, and all of the chemicals, like formaldehyde, yikes, that’s scary, that exist within these, and, you know, I think the point of the, the article, I, I can’t remember the statistic, I want to say that it, I should look it up, but I want to say it’s like 12 million tons of furniture every year, you know, something ridiculous that is thrown out, and, you know, it’s like fast fashion now, and fast furniture, and how do you get away from that?

Faraz: I was reading this article in a really, Um, well regarded institutions called the Onion. uh, but they actually had an article that was about, uh, chair design and it was like, the world does not need another chair.

Ella: well, question! How do you feel about that as like a, former designer, industrial

designer in your previous

Faraz: I, I used to have a printed version of that, like a, my cubicle wall,

Carolyn: my gosh, that’s hysterical.

Faraz: but you know, I, it’s actually, it’s, it’s cheeky and it’s funny, but really it’s, it’s I think it speaks to what you’re both talking about that there’s a mindfulness that I think we’re missing as a As a community of designers and I wonder you know, we started this conversation talking about Natural elements that you bring into a space, but then it’s also mindfulness of the materials you bring into the space

to keep things Clean and and I don’t know it feels like there is some circularity here.

Not just in the economy of how you design and use objects, but that taking care of the environment so that you can, you know, be a responsible citizen. So that by making smart choices of what furniture or materials or building materials are used for your space,

it helps to the things that we actually cherish.

Ella: However, we get to this reminder of like, we are part of a system, we’re not above it. Like, we’ve kind of built ourselves as humans to be at the top of this sort of, of the food chain, but we are part of an ecosystem, and I think that all of our sort of industrialization of society has made us feel like we’ve conquered this, and there’s nothing really to conquer here.

Like, I think in some ways we’ve shot ourselves in the foot, because we forgot that we’re actually part of something, and that’s what’s disallowing us to take care of it well.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: So how do we, how do we build that in? How do we, as responsible designers and makers of things, build in some of that? So that, like, we can be the reminders or the, we can do some of that heavy lifting to be conscientious and intentional about the things we make and what we make them with.

Faraz: Well, I mean, I’m going to put you on the spot, Carolyn, a little bit, but I mean, what do you think, you know, having been a part of all the like research that we’ve done with on the turf side? But even your own experiences, like what are some things that interior designers and architects should be thinking about as they’re trying to be more mindful about creating either more responsible spaces or spaces that utilize biophilic elements?

Like you got a top five?

Carolyn: Oh wow. A top five. I mean, I still think

Faraz: It doesn’t have to be five.

Carolyn: oh, okay. Um, I, I, I also think that there’s this misnomer and. And again, I’m well certified. I, I really enjoy, uh, the work from, you know, organizations like USGBC and [00:50:00] LEAD and WELL. I also still think there’s a misnomer that everything has to go for a certification.

I think that if we really want to. Have more sustainable design. I think we just have to do it. Um, and you know, sometimes the certifications are, you know, really great to have, Mm but they’re also cost

prohibitive. Um, you know, I work on. office projects here in Atlanta as well, and usually it’s a smaller outfit, a 10, 000 square foot space, for example, that’s never going to go for certification, um, just because it’s cost prohibitive.

But yet we still try to bring as many sustainable choices to that space as possible. Or again, reusing, I think is so important with circularity. When it comes to biophilic design though, I think you have to think about what, what’s the whole purpose of biophilic design, and it, it goes back to who’s using the space.

What is the space for? What is the function of the space? How do we want someone to feel in the space? Um, how, how do you want to support somebody both, you know, a meant mentally and emotionally in a space and then you can start to layer in those properties of biophilic design. You know, we haven’t also talked about space planning, you know, how can you have.

Um, space planning that also can help support biophilic design just based on, again, function and, and utilization of, of a particular space and what that might be like to traverse. Um, you know, for example, from your conference space where a lot might be happening to an area where you’re going to go for that heads down focus work, what’s the journey along the way?

What is it? What does it look like? What does it sound like? Um, I think that starting to, you know, we’ve talked a lot with turf on sensory design and biophilic design and sensory design really do work together because biophilic design supports across all of our senses. So I just, I think that, you know, if you’re asking me for a top five, maybe it’s a top three that’s really of, again, sustainability as.

Attainability is what I like to say. How can we make sustainable attainable?

Ella: hmm.

Faraz: That’s a good poster and t shirt.

Carolyn: thank you. Sustainable, attainable, sustainability is attainability. Yet, um, some more t shirts. Um, but I still feel like, you know, almost making just bold conscientious choices all of the time as part of your practice, whether it’s a certification or not, you know, and the second thing again is to try to find what, what’s the purpose of the space.

And, and those elements that, that are so important and then bringing in that really thoughtful biophilic sensory design throughout, throughout the design when it comes. And I love to say too, even through this journey of, with turf, I think you, you start to think about this as layered in through like the FF and E stage, like the finishes, furniture and equipment, but it’s all the way back to the programmatic

stage. You know, what, what does the space feel like? What should it feel like? What should it smell like? What should it sound like? How should you, you know, how do you engage in this space? So I think going all the way back through, through the design phases and engaging the senses and engaging biophilic design, um, would be really important.

Ella: So can I, can I ask the title of this episode as a question to you both maybe? After having had this conversation, like, do we think of nature as a designer?

Faraz: Yes.

Carolyn: I think

Mother Nature is the ultimate designer. Fractal patterns, light, um, circadian, I mean,

Ella: So in some ways what we’re doing is trying to take cues from what she’s already sort of provided us. Right?

Faraz: Yeah. We’re just taking some cues from Professor Mother Nature.

Carolyn: We’re just interpreters.

Ella: Yep, I like that.

Carolyn: Another t shirt, we’re just interpreters.

Ella: we’re just interpreters. We are! That’s a really nice way to put that actually. I like that. I have a, I have a word of the day if we feel like we might be ready

for that. That I found. This is, like, this is, for us, starts us off with a YouTube rabbit hole, and I always try to find a word that is, um, an untranslatable word, is what I like.

It’s when other cultures have words, or sayings for things that, like, take a lot of words in English to describe. But I, I like when you find that, find this. So, today’s, I believe, is Japanese in origin, and the, The word, if I’m going to pronounce this properly, is shinrin yoku, or it’s two words together as a phrase that means forest bathing.

And it says, in the Japanese language, shinrin translates to forest, and yoku means bath. Therefore, shinrin yoku refers to immersing yourself in the forest’s atmosphere and absorbing the natural surroundings through all of your senses. So, S H I N R I N [00:55:00] and dash or hyphenate yoku, Y O K U.

Faraz: Yoku.

Ella: to bathe yourself in, and I’m taking the forest

very liberally here, but to nature.

Faraz: in the forest, but to bathe

Ella: In, yes, in

the atmosphere of

forest.

Carolyn: could be both, who

Ella: Could be both.

Faraz: Right?

Ella: DL of the above.

I like that term.

Carolyn: That really does bring it. I mean, when we were talking about like the immersive biophilic design.

Faraz: just trying to think through like, what are those elements that I would want to be immersed in, right? Like from, from nature, like forest, I think, maybe, but also, I think the middle of, of nothing could also be really interesting.

Ella: I’m taking that term loosely to say, like, immersing yourself, like, in whatever environment

you choose or

feels good to you.

Faraz: What would be yours?

Ella: me? I like them all. I really do like the desert a lot. I like the high desert a ton. Like rocks and boulders and like things that live in places where it’s really, really hard to live.

I have a lot of respect for.

Faraz: And not just Los Angeles.

Ella: Yes. What about you? Would you be hanging out in the very large

array? yeah,

Faraz: I did my road trip, I was trying to find these places that were, um, just very barren and that emptiness, I think felt very whole, right? It’s like this idea of there’s nothing around you, no trees, no water. You’re just in the middle of nothing. And like, there’s a certain eeriness to it that.

That feels good. I don’t know how to describe that very very well, but there’s something

there in nothing. a, little aside, but like related to this, that in the last week I have found this show called Love Off The Grid.

Ella: It’s on HBO, and it’s like a, it’s a reality show where like, it’s a couple, one person has like They either met when they were young, or like, some circumstances, one person is living like this, like, homesteading, like, very off grid, very rustic lifestyle, and is like, challenging and testing themselves, and there’s some more acidified person that is like, testing out this experience, and so it’s like,

all of the trials and tribulations,

but like, I’m obsessed with this show, I cannot get enough of it, it’s so fun to watch, cause it’s like, there are different environments and different challenges where everybody’s trying to survive, but it’s like, it also kind of speaks to like, the adaptability of humans, and so, um, In most of the cases, the person who’s leaving behind all the creature comforts of like, urban life, comes to like, really find and love something beautiful about being in community with nature, and like, feeling the sense of satisfaction of having like, done something with your hands.

Which I think,

Faraz: Yeah,

Ella: like, we

kind of get in

Faraz: I could appreciate that

Ella: So, I,

Faraz: as long as there’s a clean shower I can I can appreciate all the

Ella: yeah. Yeah.

Faraz: What about you?

Carolyn: So mine is a forest and I feel like it’s the exact opposite of yours. Um, so I am always drawn to water. I’m drawn to, I love to go hiking, um, and actually tying back to earlier in the conversation. So I did travel to the Northwest coast and we were in Whistler, Canada, um, and And, um, paddle boarded on Lost Lake in 45 degrees in the mist in the middle of the forest.

It was supposed to be at sunrise, but it was raining and, um, went for it anyway. And it was just felt magical to me. Like I felt so alive.

Um, yeah, it was just, yeah, it was truly felt like you were in the middle of nowhere, but the middle of everywhere all at once because it was just surrounded by these enormous pine Um, the water is so clear because it’s glacier water and it’s just absolutely beautiful.

yeah, you just feel like your whole body just feels present and awake best way.

Faraz: Not just

because you’re

cold.

Hehehehehehehehe Just shaking with how

alive you

Carolyn: That, was why I said the dry socks were so important oh my god.

Ella: I feel like nothing but being freezing to death would make you feel very alive.

Carolyn: Oh yeah, oh

Ella: Yep,

Carolyn: you’re wide awake.

Ella: yep. I love that. Well, every time we have one of these conversations it brings up new places I want to go and I swear one day we need to take this show on the road. Like we need to go

it.

Faraz: I, I, like this idea. We’ll, we’ll bring Rob. I mean, he’s already in the desert

anyway. So we’ll, we’ll go visit him as the first stop.

Ella: We’ll do like the local tour.

Carolyn: I have one more thought.

Faraz: Sure.

Carolyn: I live in the city and the trees in Atlanta. yeah, our city and it uniquely in the United States has the most tree coverage for a large metropolitan,

over 50%.

Yeah. So if there’s one thing that fits all of this DNA, it’s that idea that.

You know, the built environment and nature [01:00:00] can co exist.

Faraz: Well, or maybe it’s a directive, like

they have to coexist.

Carolyn: they have to co exist. We can make them co exist.

Ella: that a challenge to ourselves? Also curious about what our listeners think about all that. Like, what are things that they are doing in their life, either as designers or as laypeople in their homes and offices? Like, how are people incorporating natural things into their experiences?

Faraz: Yeah. And what part of nature would they like to bathe?

Ella: Yeah.

Yep.

Faraz: Thank you for listening to Sense of Space. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte, with help from associate producer Moti Tavassoli and Patricia Gonzalez, and a special thank you to our guest Carolyn Noble.

Ella: Sense of Space is a TERF podcast and is brought to you by the Surround Network by Sandow Design Group. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surroundpodcasts, plural, dot com.

Faraz: And don’t forget to leave a five star review on your podcast platform of choice. And, you know, you can send any comments and feedback directly to Ella’s DMs, or you can deliver a note right to her apartment door. Just make sure you slip it under the crack.

Ella: It’s not, not creepy at all. We’ll take the smoke

Faraz: Extra creepy.

Carolyn: Also,

Ella just moved. ha ha