Dennis Scully

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Dennis: [00:00:00] What I wish was happening at a faster rate was a real appreciation and understanding for what designers do and the value of what designers bring. There is still not this appreciation for everything that's involved, but oftentimes people think they can get it on the cheap or it's not really the same as my lawyer or my doctor or when really no, no, no, it is.

Jeremiah: Welcome back to Ideas of Order. A California Closets podcast dedicated to answering the question, what does home mean to you? I'll be connecting with friends and creators to talk about the memories and practices that mean the most to us and the spaces that have held us through it all. I'm Jeremiah Brent, and today I am thrilled to welcome a true industry powerhouse.

While he initially worked in editorial roles, his career effortlessly evolved into one with many hats. It's from pioneering strategies and sales and marketing to top tier consulting and advisory services. He now hosts one of my favorite and most beloved podcasts. The business of home, please. Welcome my friend Dennis Scully

Dennis all right. Yes, sir. Welcome to the other side of the mic This is not going to be easy for me i'm not gonna lie. I know that's what makes me so I'm also like in an adult diaper thinking about how i'm gonna interview you which is you're so good at this and I am not But i'm just genuinely excited to kind of hear and get to know you on a different level because I know you from You know, obviously working having shot.

Um You know worked with you on the podcast and just know you who you are professionally, but this is really exciting Thank you.

Dennis: Well, i'm i'm delighted to be here Thank you so much for asking me and really i'm going to be mostly turning it around and interviewing you. No, we'll

Jeremiah: see You're not allowed to this is about you today We shall see about you and the best the first thing that I learned about you, which I thought was so incredibly fascinating Is that you are from a long line of dennis sculley's?

Dennis: Oh my goodness.

Jeremiah: What's the story? Just Father is like old school, traditional.

Dennis: Well, exactly. What do you think when, when they do the junior thing, have they just run out of ideas or I mean, they couldn't come up with something better. Really like the name. Yeah. I mean, does it have some significance to it?

I'm not sure. I

Jeremiah: love that.

Dennis: Yeah,

Jeremiah: and your mom, Nancy, is somebody that I'm particularly fascinated with. Oh, do tell. Well, I think she's just one of the most intrinsically elegant people I've ever seen. You seem like you guys have a really close relationship. I want to kind of go back a little bit and just understand a little bit about Where you grew up and what that was like, because she strikes me as somebody who is so ceremonial with the way she presents herself and like, you know, what was, what was a young tennis junior like growing up?

Dennis: She is, she is a style icon. My mother and I, I love that she has become that. Uh, so, uh, I grew up in New York city. I grew up on the Upper East Side, uh, East 71st street in the apartment. where my mother still lives.

Jeremiah: Which I still can't get over. That's my

Dennis: dream. Yes. We were talking earlier today, there was a piece in the Wall Street Journal about, oh, people renting versus buying and the whole sort of notion of forever renters.

My mother is a forever renter and she will leave this world in that apartment that I grew up in.

Jeremiah: Do you love going back to that apartment still? Is it sentimental? You're like, get out of here.

Dennis: Well, you know, it's, uh, it's a very, uh, how do I say this in a nice way, Jeremiah? So yes, it's, I love going back there and all of the, the fond memories that I have, but my family liked to acquire a lot of objects and fill the home.

There are a lot of Heron figurines and a lot of, yes, a lot of bone china all around. And so, yes. So it's, uh, it's a little bit more crowded and cluttered than is my own personal taste. So sometimes I find a little, I get a little tight. Yeah. A little bit more

Jeremiah: maximalist.

Dennis: Yes, exactly.

Jeremiah: That's so wild. Is your mother, the type of woman that's always been, since you were grown up, you've grown up, always dressed, always ready to go.

Always like.

Dennis: She was always very chic. I mean, it's a lot more layered today that now that she's, uh, she's not working, you know, growing up, my mom was, was working and was a nurse. And, and, uh, so she went to, went to work every day. And so I don't think she was quite as ornate as she is today, but, uh, she definitely was Was always very stylish and chic.

Jeremiah: Yeah. And I love that. Like I'm reading, cause obviously I've done more research on you in the last couple of days than I care to admit. I'm afraid to think. I love it. Um, but it's, it's so interesting to know that you've kind of come by your passion with design and interiors really naturally. I had no idea.

That your grandparents founded Scully and Scully. Yes. Which I have two sheep and a pig from. Is that right? [00:05:00] Okay. Well, I know my way around that website for the record. I'm excited to hear that. That's so wild. So they founded in the 1930s. Um, it's, I mean, it's a New York institution. What was that like? Like, what was it like growing up having, you know, being a part of that when your family.

Dennis: You know, it was, it was really interesting growing up because as you say, it, it, it is such an institution and it was. It's my, my grandparents, as you say, started it in, in the depths of the great depression in 1934 and, uh, and who knows what it really was in the beginning. I think it was a little antique shop and I'm sure it was very random and there were lots of different incarnations over the years.

Uh, and now it's this behemoth that takes up much of a city block on, on Park Avenue, uh, that, that's run by my father's youngest brother, Michael. The store was very well known on the Upper East Side. And so often if you introduced yourself, people would immediately make the connection. And so they created a storyline around me that wasn't actually true or, or wasn't really who I was or wasn't all that I was.

And so it was funny for me to try and navigate what people thought they knew about me because they made this. association with the family store.

Jeremiah: Like the unapproachable heir to the Scully and Scully empire. Well,

Dennis: exactly. Or that, or that I was perhaps a little bit more highfalutin than, than I, than I really am.

Let's just say it. Well, I mean, and I, you know, I, I wanted people, I don't know, in a way I wanted people to see I was much more, I don't know, real or down to earth than a lot of people assumed I, I was. That was. So that was sort of challenging.

Jeremiah: Did you grow up in the store? Were you there all the time?

Dennis: No, I, I wasn't in part because I, uh, I drank a lot of Hawaiian Punch when I was little and uh, so they were first, they were, first of all, love Hawaiian Punch

They were, uh, I didn't drink carbonated beverages when I was little, and so my parents looking back on it, gave me this. toxic beverage called Hawaiian Punch, which, um, shortly took years off my life. I am, I am certain, but, uh, but my grandparents would always be nervous when I would be in the store with the Hawaiian Punch that I would spill, that I would, uh, damage something.

So I tried to limit my visits to, uh, to holidays and special times for the, uh, for the store. But, and I also didn't want to, I also didn't want to, crowd it and be like, Oh, I want to be part of this. Uh, and, and so I, I didn't, I didn't push my way into that.

Jeremiah: I love that you're a born and bred New Yorker. I grew up on East 71st street.

Oh really? Yeah.

Dennis: The whole time. The whole time. That is it. How many

Jeremiah: generations back does your New York lineage go?

Dennis: So my grandparents were living in, in Scarsdale just outside of New York, but they, they lived in New York originally when they, when they got together. And, um, and so New York is a big part of the,

Jeremiah: And what was it about New York that kept you?

Why did you never leave?

Dennis: It's the greatest city in the world, so, uh, why would anyone leave? And believe me, if my wife hadn't dragged me, kicking and screaming, to the suburbs of New York, so that she could have, uh, A little house with a garden. I would, uh, I would still be living in, in Manhattan at this very moment.

In fact, I I'm, I'm looking out the window and thinking, I wonder how many apartments are available here. Could I rent something on the side? Could I have a little piece of tear here? It is hard. Every time I come into the city, it's actually sort of painful for me that I'm not. Here all the time. That's

Jeremiah: interesting.

We um, I always like go through this exercise because we obviously love to move and I always I'm like, where else would we go? But the truth is there's just no place that I have found. No, it's like New York City No, big as you need it to be or as small as you need it to be

Dennis: and it has Everything and when you go visit other great cities in the world, and there are plenty of them.

They don't have everything that New York has to, has to offer. And I know that sounds like a cliche, but it is, it is true. I agree. So I, I miss it. I miss it every day. I'm not going to lie.

Jeremiah: What was it like growing up here in your home? I mean, I know you've talked about your mom's style now and what the house is like, but what was home like for you?

Like, what was the style? What was the vibe? You know, was it been the same since you were little?

Dennis: You know, it's, it's gotten more crowded over the years. Uh, there were a lot of lairs, um, but, but growing up there was a, there was a lovely, there was a, there was an interesting combination of a, a graceful elegance.

We had formal family dinners every night. There were candles in China every night. Love that. My mother rang a bell. to call us all to dinner every night. So we would be, we would be in the living room. It was a, it was a fairly big apartment. So there was a long hallway and my father would be desperately trying to amuse two young children in any way that he, that he could.

Uh, and then, uh, to his great relief. a bell would ring summoning us to to dinner down the hall And uh, it was uh, and then we would get to [00:10:00]hear about my sister's day for most of the most of the meal That was that was made up family dinner But uh, but it was honestly it was delightful and I was I was thinking today Knowing that I was going to be talking to you one of the things That my father gave to our home, uh, that I didn't realize the significance of it.

My, my father passed away a few years ago and this, this past weekend was when he passed. And so I was thinking about him a lot. There was a wonderful elegance and grace and kindness to my father who never used bad language, who never raised his voice. And so we had the calmest home from that. Perspective there was there weren't big dramas with my parents.

They weren't fighting. They weren't disagreeing about things Um, and so there was there was just a wonderful Uh, just a calm and and a gentle tone that was just set throughout the house and my father modeled a kind of behavior that I I hope I've, I've largely taken with me. Wow.

Jeremiah: What a safety to grow up in.

Dennis: Yes, exactly. What a

Jeremiah: beautiful way to grow up. Do you, how do you think it's impacted you as an adult?

Dennis: I think that it made me feel very secure. I always knew my parents loved me, that I was always so important, that they wanted everything the best for me, whatever that, whatever that meant. And so that, and I was a terribly, confused and wayward child.

So that didn't, that didn't help anchor me. Yeah, it didn't, that didn't turn out the way they had hoped, but it, it made me want to emulate that part of my father's behavior and treat other people the way that my, that my father did. And so we grew up in a house that many thought looked very formal and fancy.

And as I say, It was a Scully and Scully esque house, as of course it was, but it was also a house where two kids were running around and, and doing whatever two kids are, are doing. And, and my parents were very indulgent. We each had our own phone lines in our rooms and our own TVs in our room, which looking back, I'm thinking, what were they doing?

But so there was a wonderful freedom and independence in our home and And we were given a lot of a lot of leeway again far too much leeway, but that's very

Jeremiah: progressive Yes, that's why yes, but I have to tell you it's I think you're one of the few people I've ever met That's described their childhood in that way Because that's actually something that I work with Nate so hard on is trying to make sure that the consistency of kindness and calmness in our house is always there.

I mean, we don't fight, that's very distant, not the same at all to the way I grew up. But that's super important for me that the kids know that that house is always going to be a place for safety.

Dennis: Yeah, you

Jeremiah: know and and seeing you now and knowing you now as an adult and knowing that that's where you come from Because your energy is always so tethered Um, I don't know you have a calmness to you and the same grace that you described your father I feel like you carry yourself through the world the same way So I think that's really beautiful.

Dennis: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I would love to think that. And I, and I, and I appreciate that because as I, as I look back on him, he was such a gentle man and, and, and what a gift that was growing up.

Jeremiah: How long were your parents married?

Dennis: My parents were married until the day my father passed away at 82. So I mean, and would, yeah.

Uh, and so that was, that was another thing. You, you saw happy parents. You saw people in, in love, right? My father was always pulling out the chair from my mother. My father was always telling my mother how beautiful she looked every day, how delicious this dinner was every night. I mean, so again, there was just, there was all of this.

Wonderful behavior modeled for me that I I I recognize now what an what an incredible gift that that was

Jeremiah: Well, clearly it made an impact because you've been married for over 30 years

Dennis: Well, I I've been together with my wife for for over 30 years. We've been married 27 so yeah.

Jeremiah: All right. Let's talk about kathryn How'd you meet take us back?

Dennis: Uh, well at the time At some point in my career, I owned a small advertising agency. Okay. Okay. And we did, we did a lot of retail advertising and a lot of home world related advertising. And, uh, we, we had acquired an account that was going to be advertising in interior design magazine.

Jeremiah: Yes. Yes. Cause she has an amazing career as well.

Dennis: She, she does. She does. She was, she was a giant. So she was working at interior design magazine reluctantly. Came to make a sales call on me. Turns out the, uh, the advertising agency down the hall was the one that she favored and knew far better. Didn't know who the heck [00:15:00] I was. And I was, uh, was an am very into, uh, Grand slam tennis tournaments and the day that she came to call on me in my office I had the wimbledon quarterfinals, uh on in the background.

Okay, and she was horrified that this goon Didn't turn off the television when she's making a sales call and making a presentation but she came made her presentation and uh interrupted boris becker's play for a while and uh, and and then She and I actually became quite, quite friendly, and I became, uh, became a client, and then, uh, eventually Actually, she, she moved to Architectural Digest magazine, and, and called me one day to say, Oh, I've moved to Architectural Digest, and I said, Oh, perfect timing, because I have foolishly acquired a Scandinavian furniture store that was, that was one of our clients.

And so I, I thought that perhaps I would be doing some advertising in between driving that Scandinavian furniture store into the, into the ground. Uh, but so we became quite friendly during that period and one day friendship turned to To romance to romance. That's

Jeremiah: so beautiful. And she is a powerhouse And she has a quite amazing career from ad to luxe Um into your design media.

Do you guys talk about anything but home? at home

Dennis: Well, you know, she's she's very supportive. So my my wife, uh, my wife retired and uh, and and now is very supportive of all of my efforts, uh researches guests for me and She has a great Perspective, she was at Architectural Digest for, for a long time, uh, during the, the Page Rents years of that magazine, which many, many consider the glory days.

And so she, she has so much history and perspective and, and knew so many people that it was, uh, yeah. It was very helpful. Is she

Jeremiah: nostalgic around that time and design or is she like goodbye design? She

Dennis: is so happy to be completely removed. She is working in her garden Boom done doesn't

Jeremiah: miss it. Somebody said to me the other day like, you know, if you could go back and do it all over again How would you do it?

I was like I wouldn't not because I don't love every second of it, but it's, you know, it's, um, I think I saw this quote the other day where success is earned, but the rent is due every day, you know, and it's just, this business is wild, you know, it's evolving consistently and constantly all the time. So do you guys have a similar design aesthetic at home?

Like what's home like for the two of you?

Dennis: You know that actually turned out to be far more challenging than I than I thought it would it would be

Jeremiah: yes So weird.

Dennis: Yes.

Jeremiah: Yeah. Yes, because you have an opinion. I'm sure well I do. Yeah, right Which is awful for the spouse to have an opinion. Well

Dennis: exactly and one also has to maintain a happy marriage That's right.

So there has to be an awful lot of compromise. Well,

Jeremiah: you should tell my husband So yeah,

Dennis: yeah Well now, how he describes it, he says you just go ahead and do things, and then he

Jeremiah: Let me tell you, it's

Dennis: been a lot of sweat equity, all right?

Jeremiah: I put the time in, um, and it's like, it's just one of those things where I figured like, I would just do it, and then he ends up seeing it, because he's so But who wins usually between the two of you?

She

Dennis: does. She does. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jeremiah: And what's the design style in the house? Well, she's

Dennis: me a picture. She's much more minimalist than, than I am. So truth, truth be told, I would have a lot more than we, than we do. But I, so years ago I was helping to run a custom furniture business and I, and I invited her into the showroom wanting to show her some furniture pieces saying, Oh darling, we should have some furniture made.

We had just bought a little house in the, suburbs that she tricked me into buying. And, uh, and, and so I was, I was trying to get a sense truthfully of where her taste and style was. And I showed her a piece that I thought we were just going to load up on the truck and send it home. And she's like, Oh no, no, no, no, no.

I wouldn't want that at all. And so we had to go in a completely different direction. New pieces of furniture had to be made, new furniture. Fabrics had to be chosen. So it, uh, it took some time, but it's, uh, but I love our little home and it is, uh, it is a wonderful, I would say if it had any particular style to it, it's probably got a mid century vibe to it because I, Happen to have some Scandinavian furniture left over from a from an earlier endeavor in my life.

Uh, but also I Worked for a company that made furniture So I did make some custom pieces and then it's just a lot of things that we've just had over the over the years Did you how long you guys live there? So we've lived in the house about six years now, okay So that's not the house you raise your children in no No, so so my wife so my wife and she'll hate me revealing this but my wife is about 20 years my senior You

Jeremiah: [00:20:00] Hey, okay.

So, uh, I'm not judging. No, I'm over here. No. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He's 13 years, but

Dennis: right.

Jeremiah: Whatever.

Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 13, 20, whatever. It's just the life of

Jeremiah: a younger man. Yes. Who we are. I don't know what to say about it. I know. Yeah,

Dennis: I know. Uh, and with it comes a certain responsibility as it turns out. So my wife, uh, had some children, it turned out.

Uh, and so when, uh, She really came to live with me in my bachelor apartment. She had, uh, two boys who were about four and six at the time who ultimately Came to live with me as well. Wow. And so my little home office had to be turned into the boys room and I had to purchase some bunk beds and trick out the place for, uh, yeah.

And the funny enough, the apartment that I was living in, my bachelor apartment was the only apartment I had that had been done by an interior designer. I had a friend who was an interior designer and we had really done the place up with again, A lot of very expensive Scandinavian furniture, and um, and then the boys moved in, four and six.

Who also wanted a puppy so the place would feel more like a like a home for them yeah, so we got a little Shiba Inu puppy and Really between the boys and the Shiba Inu puppy. The place was pretty much demolished. I think in the first year certainly But but then it became the the home that it really was and hilariously we raised a puppy The boys in, in my bachelor apartment with the one bathroom and, uh, yes, until they went off to, until they went off to university.

So it can be done. It was. And again, if I mentioned, I wish I still wish I still have the residents here in Manhattan. We're really hoping Catherine's not listening to us. Exactly. She needs to never hear this show. Yes. Yeah. No, I would, I would love to still have that apartment, but, um, but it was, they were a.

Thank you. A host of different things that went on when we had to to give that up and it was it was for all the right Reasons, I get it. But um, but it it, you know, you think about manhattan living. Yeah, and uh, and Raising two boys, uh again in what was once my bachelor apartment

Jeremiah: god What was that like overnight not overnight, obviously but how was that to bring in a four year old and a six year old and resume like assume responsibility for them and You How was that whole process?

Dennis: And hilariously, I was one of these guys who was like, I'm never getting married. I'm never gonna have kids. Alright? I'm not gonna have time for that, because I thought I'd be so busy running the Scandinavian furniture store, the advertising agency, doing a million other things. Yeah, of course, I wasn't gonna have time for a family.

What am I gonna do with that? Plus, I knew how crazy and hard to raise my sister and I had been. I'm like, why would I do that to myself? After seeing those kids. Yeah. No, thank you. What they were like, no, no way, right? Yeah. So I had said no, but then you fall in love.

Jeremiah: Yeah.

Dennis: And, uh, and the woman says, look, the boy's got to come and live here.

You gotta, you gotta step up. And I honestly, whatever age I was intellectually 12, I was 12 years old. You, you think you've thought it through what it's going to be like? No, no, you haven't. No, there's no, there's no planning for it. No, no. How old are they now? Well, so now they're 35 and 37 and, uh, yeah. And we have this incredible relationship because thankfully.

And this is, and this is another amazing gift. So the boys gave me the gift that started. With demolishing my home, but then me learning to be okay with that,

Jeremiah: right?

Dennis: Because that was the most precious and, and individual space I had ever created. And I was so proud of it. I would invite my parents over, look, who's a big boy now.

And look, I have a big boy apartment. And yeah, and then it got completely trashed and we set up mattress forts in the living room and did whatever we needed to do. And. Letting go of all of that was the most amazing gift I could have ever been given and I never would have been. Right. Had I not had those children.

Wow. Who I love so much.

Jeremiah: Are they here in the city still?

Dennis: So, uh, my younger son lives in Brooklyn. Okay. And my older son lives in, in Napa, California. He's married and has a, has a house in Napa. Wow, what a terrible place to live. It's horrible. I'm dreading going there in November. Fresh air and wine? Yeah, no, no, no.

Garbage. Horrible. Horrible.

Jeremiah: What's the first place, if you look back, the way you grew up, where you've been, where, how you've lived, the first place, [00:25:00] um, that ever really made a big impact on you? Like the first space that you really remember being important to you?

Dennis: Well, so funny enough, when I was, when I was young and still living at home with my parents, I had gotten a job as the stock boy at the Laura Ashley store, which, which used to be on 63rd and Madison.

And I forget what connection arranged this. job for, for little Dennis Jr to be, uh, to be running up and down the stairs, bringing all these floral dressed women, rolls of wallpaper and little ginger jar lamps. And what a moment that was. Yes. Yes. And that was, and that was an incredible place. And it was a townhouse full of all of this incredible Laura Ashley English aesthetic.

And uh, one day, uh, one of the women in the store said, you know, we should really get you something for your. your room at home. We should, we should really get you some Laura Ashley. So, so, so she very sweetly came to the apartment and at the time, uh, young Dennis jr had the starting lineup of the New York Yankees on his wall.

That's what adored the wall, uh, of young Dennis jr. And she very cleverly said, Oh, well, you know, maybe we can do something with This pinstripe theme, you know, maybe we can bring a beautiful Laura Ashley cricket stripe And we can bring a couple of other colors in and we're just going to redo Your space amazing.

Yes, and you're gonna and you're gonna love it. Yeah, and it was the most amazing Transformation and so this beautiful laura ashley cricket stripe wallpaper went up on the walls and there was this beautiful beautiful golden wheat themed curtain that was made for the room and some other accessories. And honestly, I mean, it was the most beautiful space that I had just been gifted by, uh, by the nice people at Laura Ashley and completely elevated by my space in ways I never would have imagined.

And I love that that

Jeremiah: room still means so much to you.

Dennis: I love it and miss it. And I just, I remember it just being so beautiful. So fabulous and looking back on it also ridiculous I was like very different childhoods friend insane

Jeremiah: so amazing But desperate to see a picture it

Dennis: was it was so so charming and then you know years later I think the wallpaper started to fray I think I put a poster of john f kennedy up on the wall and other things like went up over time, but it was It was just such a funny thing to look back and think of a young boy This having this

Jeremiah: laura ashley room.

Also, I thought posters were over Um side note and my daughter now wants posters. Does she yeah, what the fuck's going on? I thought we moved on what does she want posters of does she have Taylor Swift. Oh, of course. She's a Swifty. Well, she wasn't a Swifty and then she made a transition and now she's our core Swifty.

So it's pretty dark in my house. Although given her political inclinations, I'm on board with her. I'm a Swifty too. I am too. We all want to lend our support. We love a childless cat lady. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I want to jump into your career because you had um, you had a really Impressive, um, career in the design industry.

You've spending over 20 years, countless areas, um, from advertising to sales and marketing to publishing to business growth and development, all of which has kind of led you here and now, um, you're hosting this podcast business of home, which has become this juggernaut,

Dennis: huge,

Jeremiah: huge. So what inspired you to get into podcasting?

Dennis: It was interesting whenever, so the, the woman that started business of home that was used to be called editor at large, whenever I was in between a job with some big home company that I was working for, I would help her with something. And when I wrapped up the custom furniture business, that company got sold to another company and I had some time on my hands and she said, Oh, why don't you come back?

And maybe. You can write a column for us and we joked for a while, Oh, you know what we need is a podcast. That seems to be a big thing these days. Let's get a podcast. Let's talk about everything that's going on in the home industry. All these companies that are trying to disrupt the home industry. Let's talk to them.

Let's, let's educate people about this industry that I love so much and so enjoy covering. And I, I kept. Sort of bringing it up and we'd put it off, bring it up. Uh, and then finally, uh, Julia came to a panel discussion that I did one night with some designers and it was such a fun conversation. She's like, wow, we, we really do need to get you a podcast.

Let's get on that. And the next day she [00:30:00] sent me a picture of some microphones set up on the table and said, come on in. You know, they're waiting for you. And

Jeremiah: that was it.

Dennis: Yeah.

Jeremiah: That's so wow. And you were really kind of, I think you were on the forefront of like when that whole podcast explosion happened, because you started, it was in 2018.

Yeah. And you're closing in on your fourth. 400th episode. Is that right? Ooh, God.

Dennis: It's yes. Yes. No, it's a, it's a lot. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. We had no idea. And really you never, of course, know with these, with these things, but it caught on so quickly and we, and we ended up having so many great conversations with people and in the beginning, many people, of course, who didn't know me, didn't know that I had, to your point earlier, had.

Worked in the home industry for a long time. Yeah. I, I had worked for Domino Magazine. Yeah. I had worked for Waterworks. I had, I had been with all of these different companies in lots of different incarnations, and people just thought, how, how does this guy know so much about the home world? Who, who is this guy?

Because if he didn't know me, yeah. They're like, well, who? Right.

Jeremiah: What's the most interesting evolution you think has happened with the podcast over time since the beginning?

Dennis: It's interesting to see the, the moment that people realized, Oh, wow, this is, this is actually a really important thing. I should do this and come on this so that people can hear me in a, in a big way.

And there was that, there was that moment where people started pitching us, the beginning you have to go and ask people to come and be on your show. And there was that moment where suddenly. PR firms were pitching us and people lining up where I would meet someone at a cocktail party who was Unusually nice to me in a way that made me just think, huh, our relationship seems to have changed.

Wait, you used to be an asshole. Precisely. Just what I was thinking. You never used to have the time of day for

Jeremiah: me. And now suddenly, wait. It is wild how successful it is. I mean, I get, I've been stopped so many times about our conversation that we had. Um, and I think, you know, for the three people that don't know what business of home podcast is, it's daily media sources, um, leading publication, covering home industry, um, delivering the voices of interior design professionals, essential news.

And I think really thoughtful analysis and insights, which is what I love listening to, and I love hearing people's journeys. And I think, um, one of the things that makes the podcast so special is that you have a knack. For making guests feel at ease and supported during interviews, where does that come from?

Is it something that you, was it like that initially, just from the beginning, or something that you got more comfortable with? How did you learn to host?

Dennis: You know, it's so interesting. Another job that I had when I was younger, I was an intern at the Charlie Rose show.

Jeremiah: No.

Dennis: Yes.

Jeremiah: Oh my God. I

Dennis: had the worst childhood ever.

And, um, so I used to, and my job was to, uh, go and greet guests as they would arrive and then get them, uh, set up in the green room and, uh, tell them if they wanted some hair and makeup, we would arrange, whatever. And then I would spend the night there as Charlie would do a whole series of, of interviews.

And then I'd wait to take the people to their cars or whatever. And, uh, and, and so I just spent all of this time watching Charlie Rose interview all of these different people. We Celebrities and world leaders and, and authors and you name it. And people were coming in and out the door and Phil Collins is coming down one set of stairs and the ambassador to Egypt is going up the other stairs.

And I mean, it was just a, it was a crazy scene. And so I really did consciously or otherwise, I, I had just absorbed a lot of what he did and, and how he did it. And then I think. Again, going back to my father, I just, my father just had such a wonderful way of putting people at ease and making it clear that he was going to take care of them.

And he cared. And yes,

Jeremiah: that's exactly how I would describe you.

Dennis: And you know, growing up, my, my parents entertained a lot. And so my father was always teaching me about what makes a good host, obviously in a different setting and with a different idea in mind. But the skills are remarkably the same. Yeah.

What can I do to make you immediately comfortable?

Jeremiah: And to connect.

Dennis: Yes. Yeah. And the other thing is,

Jeremiah: uh,

Dennis: I mean, and you know this so well, so many people seem to start a podcast because they like talking.

Jeremiah: Yeah. And

Dennis: I get

Jeremiah: that. That's my where's my emerges. Right.

Dennis: Wait, when really it's about listening. Yeah. And, and, and so what, what makes for a great conversation is one where you can tell how engaged the person is and you're engaged with [00:35:00] them and you're picking up on something that they said instead of going to question number 12 on your sheet of, of questions.

And so that's really, I think what I somehow learned along the way, but a lot of it honestly is instinctual. Yes. Yes. And, and just. Growing up, learning to really care

Jeremiah: about, about people. Do you spend, do you have 74 people like researching every guest that you have? Like, how do you get your information? The lovely

Dennis: Mrs.

Scully, how do you retain

Jeremiah: all your information?

Dennis: You know, so what is great is that I, I always do a pre interview if I can, so that I can spend some time just getting, getting the person more comfortable. Uh, I do do a great deal of research. Um, and I, if I've. in the beginning it was a lot of people that I knew and so that's a very different kind of Conversation as the show got much bigger and there were a lot of people that we that we didn't know we had to learn talking to other people about them or finding ways to really learn what this person's like and then it's It's studying.

It's, it's crashing. And I was, I was a terrible student, hilariously, but I, I learned how to cram for, for this kind of thing. Yeah. And, and again, a lot of it is being genuinely curious and interested. Yeah. Um, but so that's a, that's a huge part of it.

Jeremiah: Who's been your most surprising guest, good or bad? I mean, I, you probably can't say, but you can say.

Dennis: Um, well, you know, I mean, so let me turn this back to you. Okay. Thanks So that's the very good hosty move. You were one of my most delightful, surprising guests. Really? Yes. Why? Because when I first spoke to you and you revealed that I could go anywhere with you and that we could talk about anything. Yeah.

We did. Yeah. And I loved that. So giving me that freedom, which very few people do. That's so annoying. In fact, just the opposite. You see, so often you can tell immediately where people's boundaries are or where the limits are and where you can't go, which is the only place you want to go. And you're thinking, why am I even doing this?

If I can't go there, this is the whole point. I mean. Yeah. So with you. One of the reasons that I just fell for you so completely from the beginning. Yeah, you were just let's talk

Jeremiah: about

Dennis: anything

Jeremiah: See we want to go. I mean, honestly, I don't know how to do anything other than just be myself So well, and I it's all the interesting parts the good the bad the weird, you know That's the shit that makes it makes us all and interesting and what makes it of course Of course and let people in I know let them see that it's an interesting profession You Because there's a lot of forced perfectionism That drives me absolutely crazy because there's no I mean, obviously we know this nobody's perfect.

No business is perfect No, nothing's perfect And so I think you know, I appreciate you saying that because um, I always strive for just authenticity over anything I have to ask, you know, you've have an insider looking at this industry for so many years now. Um, Have you witnessed an evolution, you know, how has it changed to you from your perspective?

Dennis: Well, you know, it's it's interesting because Technologically, so many things have changed, but really so little has changed in this industry. The way designers or decorators and some people like to be called designers and some people like to be called decorators. Yeah.

Jeremiah: Designers.

Dennis: Right. So, I mean, the way you all work It is still remarkably similar to how a previous generation did.

Maybe offices are structured in a different way. Maybe you're getting your information. Everyone in your outer office is on what appear to be multiple computers in your office. So I love a screen. People, absolute worst nightmare. So, I mean, all of that. is, is very contemporary and feels different, but honestly, you're, you're buying fabric, you're buying furniture, you're going antiquing, you're, you're trying to find some vintage pieces.

It's really very similar, which is why the fact that the podcast was born out of all of these companies who came along and thought they were going to disrupt the home industry. The joke is, Good luck. You're not going to disrupt the whole industry and it's just going to continue to operate in the same way that it always did.

And, and so yes, there'll be innovations and I'm sure AI will bring some wonderful, scary things, but, but it's, it's really, it's, it's so similar and that is what is so wonderful about

Jeremiah: it. I know. I feel like the only thing that is, that I've watched over the course of the last 10 years kind of shift. Is just the interest and you know, it's cool to be a designer now or a decorator You know, I think when I started my business I was like I am not gonna be a decorator.

I have seen them I've seen that gentleman at the local store. That is not who I am and you know, but um And I just there wasn't a lot of access and a lot of people on it [00:40:00] And so I think I watch now and it's like, you know People are interested in it. It's a, it's become a lot more, um, sexy.

Dennis: I agree. Uh, what I, what I wish was happening at a faster rate was a, a real appreciation and understanding for what designers do.

Exactly. And the value of what designers bring. Yes. There, there is still not this, this appreciation for everything that's involved and, and there's not, there isn't the level of respect given in, in many cases, sometimes, sometimes people respect it and understand it, but oftentimes people think they can get it on the cheap or it's not really the same as my lawyer or my doctor or when, when really, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It it is

Jeremiah: I know I mean listen, I know I spent all day talking to clients, but I mean that changes your life good design It sounds very cliche Um, but I believe it i've seen it. I've lived it i've watched it. Um, and um, I mean, it's my favorite thing in the world So i'm wondering as we're talking about all the places you've lived all um the spaces you've crafted and created and been a part of big small minimalist maximalist You When do you now feel the most at home?

Dennis: You know, it's funny. I grew up in New York city and honestly, if I had an appreciation of trees, it never registered trees, to be honest, they didn't mean all that much to me. Okay. There were a few of them on my block and fine, whatever, you know, like whatever trees I could take them or leave them. Um, but honestly, I, now in this little tiny house that we live in, we have a back porch and I go out to that back porch in the morning, surrounded by trees and birds and stuff that I just honestly didn't even relate to as a young person.

And now I just think it's the most magical place in the world. And so it's not ornate or highly decorated. We threw some furniture out there, but it is. It, it's a magical place to me and where I, I delight in going every morning when, when I get up. I love that.

Jeremiah: Yeah. Your little corner.

Dennis: Yes.

Jeremiah: It's

Dennis: so beautiful.

It's fantastic. And again, hilariously, never thought that would matter to me whatsoever. And my wife who grew up in California and she's all about trees and she can actually name them all and whatever and tell you what state they're in and why this leaf is turning this color. Oh my God. Look how stressed that tree is right now.

I don't know. I had none of that registered with me. But I, I get it. And, and the, the air that it creates around you and the, and the space during COVID, so many people discovered outdoor spaces and how important they, they were. Uh, and I having this little house made, made me discover the outdoors in a, in a way that I never, that I never had on my priority list.

So that's how it works.

Jeremiah: Well, that's beautiful. Um, can I ask you a couple of quick fire questions? Sure. Okay. What sign are you?

Dennis: I am a Scorpio. Hmm See November 7th, okay. Yeah, see but now what does that mean to you? So when you hear Scorpio, you're

Jeremiah: fun until you're not. Oh, I'm now you've got like, you know, you can get You can get testy.

Dennis: Okay.

Jeremiah: Oh, but it takes a minute.

Dennis: Well, it's gonna take a lot to get me testy, Jeremiah, but, no.

Jeremiah: Do you have any heirlooms that were passed down to you that you have still?

Dennis: I haven't taken full possession of much of my family's wedding china and glassware, but I absolutely have reserved it and, um, and my mother very sweetly brings back pieces to the house whenever she comes over.

Um, so she's, she refers to it as decommissioning. And so she starts decommissioning by, by bringing bags of China and glassware over. There's a beautiful black and white photo album of my parents wedding, including all of the things that people gave them out on this table. And I, growing up, I so loved that wedding album again, for reasons I cannot understand.

I wanted everything. In that picture, all that china, all that glassware. I wanted all of that. I always have. I always will. Those will always be cherished possessions to me.

Jeremiah: Um, what are you watching

Dennis: right now? I am always in the midst of a British police procedural. Oh,

Jeremiah: you're so high brow. I was

Dennis: hoping you're going to say Housewives of Orange County.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh, in fact, it's, it's very hard for me because believe me, I, if there is a British belief procedural, I have seen it, people say, Oh, Luther, or what about watching Shetland or what about watching like, no, no, no. Believe me, I have, I've seen it. So we're rewatching a show called line of duty, which is so fantastic.

And I'm hoping that I can forget just enough. So the story isn't ruined, but where's that, what is it on? Well, line of duty can be, can be watched on Brit box, which of course, you know, any good British British show. Okay, exactly.

Jeremiah: Um, if you could instantly become an expert in [00:45:00]something, what would it be?

Dennis: You know, the funny thing is for all of the years that I've been in interior design, I am terrible.

At making really good sound design choices.

Jeremiah: I don't believe you.

Dennis: So I would love to really be a talented, and in my early career, I spent a great deal of time watching the work of Steven Gambrel, whose home I was in last night. And who I just thought this man is on a, this man is on a whole other level.

Level and beyond and the other person that I again just because these people worked with waterworks a lot Thomas O'Brien Was another one who to me is just a design God and and so when I watched them work and the layers and all that they created I just thought I know nothing. I am just a neophyte and And I would love to have that I would love to have that gift.

I would love to have your gift. I would love to have Uh, you know what what nate can do and and what those two gentlemen that I mentioned can do I would uh I would love that and I am so far from that right now

Jeremiah: I can speak for a lot of us and say we're grateful for the gifts you do have and for you sharing with us Thank you for coming and doing this with me.

I really appreciate it You're so easy to talk to, which is not surprising. Um, and I survived interviewing the interviewer.

Dennis: And it wasn't so nerve wracking. No, it was fine. I made it easy for you. You were great. Um, thank you for doing this. No, no, no. It's such a pleasure. And thank you for asking me. I'm delighted I could come.

Yeah. A pleasure. See, I told you painless.

Jeremiah: I just want to say thank you so much to Dennis. It was fascinating hearing about a story where he's been, where he plans to go now, and make sure you guys check out his podcast, the business of home. I'd also love to hear about the special places and the pivotal moments in your lives. Be sure to post, comment, or tag us on Instagram at CAClosets.

A very special thanks to the team behind the scenes. This episode is produced by Rob Schulte and Rachel Senatore at Sandow Design Group.