Can sound define space?

This transcript was made, in part, by an automated service. In some cases it may contain errors. 

Ella: Welcome to Sense of Space, a podcast about the built environment

Welcome to Sense of Space, a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with. I’m Ella Hazzard.

Faraz: And I’m Faraz Shah.

Ella: Hi Faraj Shah. How are you doing?

Faraz: I’m doing pretty well. I’m really excited about recording this episode. This is something that I think I’m really passionate about.

Ella: Yeah, we’ve got an interesting one. This is, I like, I was thinking actually, before we jump into that a little bit about sort of

our process

Faraz: So we’re gonna, we’re gonna keep this a mystery.

Ella: Yeah, until I decide. No, just kidding. no, but like about our process for like getting to like the episode subjects. Like this one was like kind of a cool one, we picked a topic or the topic kind of picked itself. And then we kind of, everybody went their, their own direction to find something interesting related to it.

Faraz: I like to think the topic picked us. think

Ella: a little snowflake that came down and selected. Yep. But I like that each of us kind of went a different direction with it and came back with something that was really interesting. And I kind of, I like, I’m curious to see how we’ll weave together all of the pieces and parts of what we came to today.

So what we’re talking about today, our question of the day is can sound define a space? Is that right? Did I get that right?

Faraz: And I think that’s the answer too, that it can.

Ella: That it can. Yeah.

Faraz: So that’s it, that’s the episode. We’re done for the

Ella: I, yeah, okay. See ya folks, that was great. Thanks for coming. Thanks for playing. so I’m, I’m super excited about, like a bigger show and tell Some really interesting content through an interview that you did with a special guest.

I have to say, before we dive into any of that, Fraz, you’re really good at interviewing people and you’re really good at asking good questions. Thanks. I used to have my own business for a little while with a few business partners and um, we would do storytelling for non profits and Somehow, I got roped into filming, and because we were a small, like, it was like a five man, five person group, um, I would have to film and ask the questions for the interview.

Faraz: And

Ella: same time?

Faraz: yes,

so I was, I was doing the audio, doing the video, and interviewing at the same time, um, but because it was such a, like, this integrated process, we used to have, like, a little bit of a running joke of, Because these were like little non profits, it was small groups of people, they were, they were really passionate about it. So we would have this running joke of who could get the person to cry first.

Ella: Oh, jeez. And, is this your specialty?

Faraz: It’s my specialty.

Ella: Did you win all the time?

Faraz: All the time.

Ella: What’s your trick? Wait, don’t tell me. No, tell me.

Faraz: There’s no trick, but honestly, what you find out is that the people that you end up talking to end up caring a lot about what they do.

And sometimes you’re able to get a little bit below the surface and a little bit low below that and you start tugging on some heart strings.

Ella: I think that’s fair. And I also wonder, especially in like that, that kind of work, people are kind of heads down doing things all the time and don’t maybe always have the time to kind of zoom out and really think about why they’re doing what they’re doing. So I’m sure that being asked those questions are having time to focus on that.

Faraz: It’s therapy.

for everybody.

Ella: I get that. I could see that. Well, let’s see. We’ll see if you can get me to shed tears here. I don’t

Faraz: All right, I’m not making any guarantees, but maybe once during the podcast,

Ella: Yeah, not today. Today’s not, um,

Faraz: we dive into some of the good stuff. I guess I’d love to hear if you’ve got anything new or what’s uh, what’s your little bit for today?

Ella: I’ve spent a lot of time with this. I mentioned this, um, earlier, this book called Visual Thinking. Um, the subtitle is The Hidden Gifts of People Who Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions. Um, and it’s by, uh, an author and designer, um, who goes by the name of Temple Grandin, which is also a pretty awesome name, who identifies as, um, somebody who’s on this Spectrum of sorts, or maybe not neurotypical, although she would not, she does not like that term, because typical creates a box.

Faraz: Absolutely. It’s a lot of baggage there.

Ella: yep, totally. So I’ve been reading this book and it’s been kind of a Uh, like a bit of a therapy session for me and, and like I feel very, very seen, um, by how she describes the way that she thinks, the way that she’s learned, the struggles that she had in school and our like very traditional sort of test based verbal and linear education system, like all of these things and like basically also her point, uh, is like what we’re missing in the world by Teaching only in sort of this very verbal and linear and like standardized test oriented way and like who that’s filtering out

and not [00:05:00] supporting for success and like I feel very grateful that I kind of made it through that.

That school is not easy for me. I did well, but like, I think, like the. The work ethic was what kind of got me through. And I think she says a lot of the same thing, but I, I really, I don’t know. I feel very supported by this book. And one of my, my show until for later is something that she’s referenced in here.

So I’m excited to share that with you.

Faraz: Okay. I’ll be interested to see if I can make you cry during that segment.

Ella: Did you feel like I was getting close?

Faraz: there might be some things I could eat. No, I’m just kidding. I don’t

Ella: Okay.

Faraz: I don’t know.

Ella: see.

Faraz: really

Ella: What makes you

Faraz: Sometimes?

Ella: You don’t know? Oh, that’s like a good cry. Actually, all cr all cries are kind of good

Faraz: Exactly, exactly.

Ella: don’t know. So before we jump in, is there anything you’ve got like on your radar of like, like what’s

happening in your life?

Faraz: There is something that may make me cry actually, and um, I am concerned about AI.

Ella: Oh, okay.

Faraz: so I came across this article the other day, um, in a subsequent YouTube video. Um, I am a bit of a skeptic. I’ll, I’ll be honest. I feel like AI is like the new VR, the new blockchain, There’s just a little bit of a disconnect between hype and reality that I think is really interesting.

I have a YouTube video that I want you guys to watch.

The YouTube video we just watched is a reveal trailer for a product called Friend, that is an AI necklace. Uh, it’s a project that’s raised two and a half million dollars at a fifty million dollar valuation. It is a ninety nine dollar necklace. Um, it’s available for pre order. Maybe by the time this podcast comes out it’ll be out. But, um, Yes, this is a lot like Her, um, which is the 2013 movie by Spike Jonze, so

Ella: Yep,

Faraz: years ago.

Ella: yep.

Faraz: Um, It’s happening.

so this is the thing where I feel like, this is just, like, this is a thing that just came out, um, it brought up a lot of feelings that were pretty gross about how, AI, I feel like those two words have just been stuck on things and um, It’s like a cash grab and I really don’t know In my mind, like I feel like this thing is is kind of gross and disgusting But I really love to to know what what your reaction was

Ella: I mean, fair. So this is like, AF, like, artificial friendship.

Faraz: Yeah,

Ella: That’s what we’ve got going on here. This is terrifying, but also, like, I can totally see how, like, in some instances, having something like this would be better than nothing at all. You know what I mean? Like, also, I don’t know where I saw this.

Maybe this is related to a different episode research or research we did for another project that it was like, um, animated, like, robotic, like, fluffy stuffed animals and toys for, like, elder care

and, like, like, all these kinds of, like, weird Things that are like pseudo real and in some ways actually still beneficial, but also fucking gross and

terrifying.

Faraz: feels icky and maybe like gross is a strong You strong reaction to it,

Ella: I’m standing by it. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Faraz: and maybe even a little bit dystopian in that, like, there’s this augmentation to, like, humanity’s emotional needs and, I don’t know, it was interesting, like, that came across and then I started to think more about this. I’m like, okay, well, AI also gets thrown around everywhere else. how does this end up affecting the design industry? Right? Like you always have all these tools. Um, and I’m sure there’s a lot of potential for certain But at the same time, like it feels like, especially in that video, like it was such a superficial response to like certain moments. I just don’t ever see this as like a threat to And I mean this, I mean AI as a threat to like architects and designers because I feel like there’s always that human element that I don’t think it’s replaced like this empathy, um, contextualization, you know, craft, obviously.

Ella: I think we, I think we want to think that I, I’m not willing to go that far. I don’t, I don’t know what the answer is, but I am. I’m curious about how the A. I. s, plural, will impact our profession, and I do

think they will.

Faraz: like, I feel like VR. It was one of those things where it was like, you know, at least last couple years, it was the [00:10:00] new hot thing. You had the metaverse, all of that, and then it just kind of fizzled. is AI going to fizzle or is it something that you think is actually going to mature?

Ella: I think it’s actually a collection of all of these things. I think that, like, each, if you take each one of these things separately and, like, kind of by itself, it doesn’t, doesn’t make sense. It isn’t great. Like, think about like the way the internet came together, right? It took hardware

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: being developed. It took software to, it took all kinds of different things. So I’m thinking like the aspects of AR, VR, AI is like all of these things at some point will arrive to like a level where like their kind of co compatibility

Faraz: is going to be like a Frankenstein’s monster of like AR, VR, blockchain, IR, IRL.

Ella: yes,

Faraz: TRL.

Ella: yes, definitely

TRL.

Faraz: request live.

Ella: Was that Carson

Daly?

Faraz: that’s gross.

Ella: each thing, each piece and part on its own is, like, less valuable, but, like, there will come a point where things, there’s enough pieces and parts that, like, it will, something will figure out how to make use of multiple aspects of it, and it will actually become somewhat valuable in some way,

or useful. Yeah.

Faraz: what would you want it to be?

Ella: Oh man, are you doing this to me? Well, what I, well how about this? I will answer, uh, I’ll give you, I’ll let my corporate show and give you a diplomatic answer, which is to say that I wish what was happening, or what I would like to see happen is that like the things that are time consuming, not fun kind of brute force y efforts, like contracts, like legalities, codes, like all of those kinds of things, I wish I wish.

What I wish for our profession is that we could figure out how to leverage these tools to take care of those things so that we can be free to design and actually think about the things that you were mentioning, like the things that require empathy and sort of thought and like relational understanding to design better spaces, better buildings, better Systems, operations, things like that.

Like let architects do what they’re good at and like alleviate the heavy lift. Cause like I read an article somewhere that was saying like, I don’t need chat GPT to do the writing for me. Like, that’s the part I want to do. don’t do the thing I want that I want to do. And I’m good at do the things I don’t want to do.

Right.

Faraz: Yeah. Exactly. yeah, I love the idea that AI or, you know, this collection, Frankenstein’s Monster, is something that makes time for us to do the creative work.

Ella: So can I ask you, I would say, given that we all know that I’m like the Luddite of the group, um, what, you’re probably far more advanced in your usage of all of these things and have like found this tool. Like, what are, like, what are you already using? And what do you like or not like about it? And what, where do you see things going based on that, your experiences?

Yeah. Mm

Faraz: my experience is that sometimes AI is dumb. And sometimes it’s really smart. Um, I’ve been using it a lot recently for some analysis, right? So the maybe less exciting, but also interesting part of my job sometimes is, looking at how, like, we have a lot of data behind how, you know, we, we give samples, right.

From our, our organization, figuring out how. some of that data connects to the sales process, how does that connect to website traffic, and trying to see if there are trends or connections. And sometimes it’s a really great tool to just help break things down for you so that you can kind of crunch large sets of data and ask very natural questions.

Ella: hmm.

Faraz: But at the same time, I’ve also witnessed it, like fall apart at very simple things. So, It’s like, um, a really, really smart toddler.

Ella: Yeah, it’s well put, but I guess another sort of question is like, is that in service of like providing your, your team, your customers, like, uh, like a better experience, like what are, what are the objectives? Like, what do you want out of it?

Faraz: Help me understand insights, right? Help me get to the insights is really what it is. Like, I don’t interpret the data for me, but just

Ella: hmm. Mm

Faraz: Exactly.

Ella: about how to serve your audience and how to, okay, make things that people want. Okay. I have a, a thing, one of my, I will have to ask if we can share this in the show notes at all, but I was chatting with one of my friends who has two young kids, who, he just sent me an image of what happens when you let kids get a hold of ChatGPT,

and, uh, This is the image that came back. It’s a skyscraper that’s also a pepperoni pizza.

Like, intertwined,

which I thought was I don’t know, but it’s kind of amazing.

Um, I don’t

Faraz: Or maybe the grease [00:15:00] from the cheese will prevent

Ella: Maybe. It’s also, like, regular ass pizza, so I’m not sure if you Chicago folks are upset by the fact that it’s, like, not structurally sound. It’s like a deep dish

situation.

Faraz: Too thin. floppy.

Ella: Some blue malnatties.

Faraz: No.

Ella: very curious, so, you had, you had an interview with somebody, um, that I just listened to yesterday because I wasn’t in, which I really actually kind of like this experience, like, secretly it was a little like, I got to creep in the background and kind of listen without the pressure of having to participate, so thanks for doing the heavy lift on that one.

But I’m very curious, like, tell us a little bit about who you spoke with, why you thought this was interesting, how you think it’s pertinent to this topic. Like, I, I really liked the way that your brain works and like connects things. And it’s not necessarily where mine would go. So I like, I’m really, let’s crawl inside your head a bit, which me.

Faraz: I like music a lot. Um, I’m not musically talented at all.

I like a lot of genres and just, I think the nature of my education and kind of career choices, like there’s a definitely an appreciation on the technical side of things too.

So we spoke with, um, Brian Black, otherwise known as Black Asteroid, very ominous sounding, but he’s musician slash DJ There’s a lot of things that I really liked about just the type of music that he plays it speaks Very dearly to my heart.

So he’s actually got a couple albums out. It’s worth checking out on your music platform of choice, but there were some really interesting thoughts that came to mind with music where I always wonder if they’re parallels to to design that exist within music, right? Like what we do on the architecture and interior design and product design side. There’s a lot of shared thought processes and I think a lot of things that happen when we’re trying to find inspiration.

Ella: Mm hmm.

Faraz: And you know, when we were having that conversation with Brian, it was super interesting to hear that for his work in his particular sound, right? He’s developing. All of those sounds from scratch.

So there’s a very clear connection between what he has in his mind and what he executes.

which is different than some other genres where, like, maybe there’s, um, more of an emphasis on sampling. But what I thought was interesting is that he’s doing that in response to an image. And in particular, it was an image of Buildings like architecture, like is a thing that inspires the musician, which, you know, he creates that music and then that ends up inspiring other folks like us designers that end up affecting the interior.

So it becomes this really interesting cycle. Right.

Ella: it. I wasn’t expecting that.

Faraz: You just see all of these connections that happen, like, you just realize that there’s, I think, a lot of shared heritage between architects, designers, and musicians, right? He was even talking about his background, where, you know, he was originally a graphic designer, and I think he started in print, and then

went towards digital, and then, um, into, like, sound production, and then towards musician. And even some foray into fashion. So I mean like you end up with all of these different influences and like a mix of backgrounds that really resonated with me.

Ella: yeah.

Faraz: him?

Ella: of medium. Um, and like very intentional about the things that he’s doing. having attended neocon a few years in a row now and like knowing the kind of vibe that you like to set up.

you put up a bunch of acoustical stuff and then like invite somebody in to make a bunch of racket to show it off. I think Patricia actually was even one of those

folks maybe last year, but like I think you definitely have a certain Style or taste. I’m not saying that it’s limited to what you’ve shown, but I was like, Oh, as soon as I like, listen to the interview and then listen to Brian’s stuff, I was like, Oh, this is very frazzled. Love it. And I like, I really, I thought, I think his work is good. I like listening to somebody talk about how they create, and I think you’re right, the parallels, no matter what you’re making or the tools that you’re using, like designers are designers are designers. Um, I had a weird thought that’s like kind of about like meta about the podcast but also about like the kind of Paradox that we’re I think maybe sitting in the in the midst of

Which is like his music is like it’s hard.

It’s precise. It’s like it’s It’s like evocative and his descriptions of like beautiful, brutalist buildings. Like it made sense. Like what he, like what he said, he was kind of imagining makes sense with the music that he’s creating. And I think like, as we’ve like kind of pulled together, like, you know, collages of like images and [00:20:00] things like that.

And the music that we like, it all centers around this kind of like, kind of hard, like crisp, in your face. Yeah. Ish music and visual. And at the same time, what we keep talking about and what we want to do on this podcast is that like, we want to break down the barriers to design

Faraz: there’s some dissonance.

Ella: Yeah. But for both of us, and I think it’s like, we don’t want, like, I won’t, I won’t speak for you, but like the idea of being like very cool, like is what’s sometimes off putting about architecture and design, but at the same time, like it’s still kind of like fetishized or really like, and engage with a lot of that stuff.

And I guess what I. I took a long walk while I was listening to

Faraz: I have some questions for you about

Ella: Yeah, let me say one thought first, and then I’ve got questions for you. Which is to say, I’ve realized last night, I don’t think that it has to be an either or. I’ve realized that, like, I think there’s a duality or a plurality of things.

Like, in trying to say that, well, we can’t, it can only be, if you like this thing, then it can’t be that thing. Is probably the wrong approach, is where I landed yesterday. So, I guess I was gonna, like, that’s sort of where, I went with things after kind of listening to the interview and to his music quite extensively, but I’m really curious about how you navigate this for yourself and sort of like maybe, like, if you can talk about some of the different layers of plurality that are Faraz and sort of what you think about both your, your tastes, this podcast, like,

I don’t know,

Faraz: I mean, I wonder if this resonates with you as well. But like, yes, there is definitely an affinity and an affection for all those things that are a little bit harder. And I think it’s an appreciation. And there’s some Aspect of I think counterculture

Ella: Mm hmm. Mm

Faraz: and I don’t know what about it necessarily but that there’s some significance there where trying to break down barriers, trying to push the envelope, trying to challenge expectations

that is embodied in a lot of that music I think when you start looking at like what is like popular culture and popular music that there’s such a disconnect sometimes where it just sounds very different and I don’t know. I just I really appreciate how different it sounds and I I always look out for for something that’s new and something that’s challenging.

Like I’m willing to put in the effort and the time into, to finding it. does that resonate with you?

Ella: it, it definitely does. So maybe, maybe that’s actually the common thread that I’m looking for is that in some ways is this conversation between you and I, sort of the, the, the fe or the counterculture of trying to break down the, in approachability or the exclusivity that at least I perceive to sometimes be present in like the design and architecture community.

So

Faraz: maybe what you’re saying is that we’re trying to turn like architecture into design into something that’s maybe more approachable, right? Like

Ella: yeah.

Faraz: bears,

Ella: We are. We actually both are. I think we’re actually both like gigantic softies at heart, and yet some of the things that we’re both

attracted to, like, yeah, but I think we also are. I mean, like, not in the like, I’m cool kind of way, but just like the things that we’re interested in and like the stuff that we do, like, I think is.

And I don’t, I guess, it took me a while, it took me a few laps around a long park last night to realize, like, I don’t think that they have to be mutually exclusive. Yeah.

Faraz: I think that there’s a that duality is what makes life interesting. So,

I’m all for that.

Ella: yeah. I guess what I would be curious to know, and I’m wondering if maybe we can talk to him again, is like, I’m curious about whatever softy is underneath his hard candy shell.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: and like, clearly quite creative.

Um, but like, there’s more there that I want to, I want to poke at

somehow. Mm

Faraz: I definitely agree with that and I think, you know, when I was listening to some parts of the conversation, Um, There were moments where you could see, like, this very, like, technical aspect would come alive where you’re thinking about a very literal translation of, um, like the example that you, you gave, right?

This brutalist, kind of minimalist, uh, building and creating a soundscape that sounds and feels like that.

Well, on the other hand, I think there were some really interesting moments where he’s talking about these really imaginative, imaginative High level concepts, right? He was talking about How do you interpret what infinite darkness

Sounds or feels like and you know kind of the expanse of space

and I think like What was really cool is hearing his interpretation of of these things and I don’t know.

I think that that’s There’s like this common thread to to all of that work, right whether it was through the visual media as a graphic designer [00:25:00]through music or even he was talking about his work with Rick Owens on the fashion side. You’re trying to create or craft some kind of experience for someone else

Ella: Yep. Well, he’s, I think he’s adamant about crafting something specifically for himself. And if he doesn’t like what he’s doing, like, there was, there was a comment he made about, like, Like when he’s DJing live about like, he’ll maybe pick the first few songs, but then like from then forward, he doesn’t know what he’s going to do.

So like, there is an element of like crowd read and like wanting to, but like what I, what resonated for me was like, Oh yeah, you’re right. Like architecture is such a service based thing in some ways. If you’re doing it right, like you have to consider other people, but also like what’s in it, what’s in it for me?

Like what’s here for, as a designer, like, what am I getting excited about? Is it

Faraz: Yeah, but I wondered. Yeah. And I wonder, though, if it again. Those two things don’t necessarily have to be mutually exclusive either, right?

Because,

Ella: that’s fair.

Faraz: and I think what I see, or not see, what I hear in his music is that it’s his perspective, his lens and taste,

but it’s sharing that with other people. And I think that’s the, that’s the thing that you’re interpreting these moments or you’re interpreting these experiences through music, through sound.

To share it with someone, right? It doesn’t just exist in a, you know, uh, uh, a file on his hard drive, right? Like, it’s out there.

Ella: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the creative act is like putting your heart, like, Taking your heart out and putting it outside for the world to, to pick at

and or, or love and experience. But like, one of the things he said, I don’t know, maybe it was in reference to like his earlier work was talking about, which seemed like it was a bit more sort of restrained and maybe industrial or minimal.

I remember him talking about sort of like, You know, getting to the essence of what something was, and that it was more about editing or stripping away, which is something we’ve definitely talked about. But one thing he said was like, sometimes the negative space or what’s not happening is more important than what actually is,

Faraz: hmm.

Ella: that was a pretty

beautiful way of putting it.

Yeah.

Faraz: Love that.

Ella: Yup. And then what, what kind of, I don’t know if it preceded or followed it, but what, the thing I would really get excited about wanting to talk to him more about was the idea that like, he was not critical of himself, but saying that like, in some ways, the thing he doesn’t like about creating like electric, electronic music or producing and that,

Faraz: Mm hmm.

Ella: He’s, yeah, he used the word safe and that like in rock and roll or in other types of music or maybe even in live performance, I don’t know, that like the idea of getting a little bit dangerous or letting things like get close to falling apart before you either bring it together or you choose to let it fall apart, not sure, but I thought that’s where I was like, Hmm, so there’s something else like, what, what does that look like?

What does that Are you, are you letting it happen? Are you creating it? Like, what is that about?

Faraz: I think there’s some really direct translation between that and what happens in architecture. Like, you know, in a space, right, you use pattern, you use repetition to kind of set expectations. And I think electronic music is the same way. But then you have to kind of find ways to create these moments of surprise and delight, right?

You interrupt that pattern, you break it. And I think that’s the thing that, um, that’s so interesting about all of this, is it’s the same principles, mediums.

Ella: it’s part of the idea of like interaction, right? Like either whether you’re performing with somebody else on stage or interacting with the audience, is You can only plan so much and if you choose to ignore what’s happening, like the energy in the room, then you’re gonna, you miss it.

Like, you know, like you miss the energy.

Faraz: There’s something special and fascinating about how all of this stuff works together to evoke these feelings, and right, and it’s manifested, right, in how you feel in a space, I think.

Ella: Yep. the musical talent that you’ve brought through, um, Whether it’s live and in person or this experience has all been like really interesting. And any like random songs you send me, I’ll like land on a workout playlist. So

Faraz: love it.

Ella: thanks for that.

letting go or letting some, like, it’s part of the idea of like interaction, right? Like either whether you’re performing with somebody else on stage or interacting with the audience, is that like, You can only plan so much and if you choose to ignore what’s happening,

Faraz: you would send over a couple of examples,

um, about how sound, And space have a relationship. And I think one of the other ones I really want to talk about that I think is actually a very similar, but different approach is, um, sound walk by Ellen Reed.

Ella: the first one [00:30:00] she did I think was actually for Central Park in New York. Um, and what she does is chooses a specific route or like, destination.

series of routes or sort of maps a physical space, um, and then composes the one she did in LA with, with, with, uh, Kronos Quartet,

which amazing. Yep. Yep. So good. Um, but composes specific pieces of music for specific spaces. Um, and. And the sound walk, the element of that, the way that that plays out is that if you’re on a walking route or on a hike or on something, is that you will download this app, you put your headphones in, this is quite a personal experience, or I think should be, and your geography, or where you choose to walk, so long as you’re within her mapped out space, dictates what you’re listening to.

And so there are custom composed segments of music that. The one in LA. So I did this during the pandemic,

Faraz: which park did you go?

Ella: Griffith park and like, which is huge, but like some of the, like the more common hiking areas, which is really interesting because it’s like. Big sort of, um, height difference, like there’s some really steep trails, there’s like some like beautiful, like you’re walking around a corner, like these beautiful vistas that kind of open up, and she’s composed music that kind of, that’s her interpretation of like how she feels or wants, what she wants to express based on like that geography, so like, I don’t even know, like one, One day I was hiking this and it was like a, like a big patch of like sage that was like alongside the trail and it was like a hot day mid pandemic and I was like huffing and puffing because it was up a pretty steep hill and like just got this like big inhale of like sage just as I was like kind of coming around this corner with this like Big, like open view of all of LA with like this amazing music.

And I just was like, holy shit, like somebody. And I, in the moment it was like, she made this for me to have this moment right now. And it felt, well, she gave it to everybody, but like, it felt so special and so personal. And also I would say it got me out hiking. Cause it got me hiking in different parts of the park that I’d never been to.

Cause I wanted to hear more music or hear more in different things.

Faraz: I was listening to part of her video and she was talking about,

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: like a twisting or winding part of a trail, like how would that sound? Right, so I’m assuming that, you know, throughout your journey, right, you’re trying to maybe anticipate what’s coming next, right? Like, if I walk over there, what’s that gonna sound like?

Ella: Yeah. Yep. And, or, like, like she composed the length of the segments, I think, supposedly, like, relatively, so that, like, you should walk, you should hear the complete thing.

Faraz: Mm hmm.

Ella: From start to finish and then move into the next sort of segment. And so there were some times where I either went too fast and was like, Ooh, like I want to slow down and wait to hear the whole thing.

Or it was like moving way too slow up a hill. But like, yeah, the, the different sounds of like the texture also combined with like, yeah, like the crunch of like gravel under your feet or like, I don’t know, it was a very, it, it brought me closer to all of my senses actually. Cause I was paying attention.

Faraz: Yeah. I think that’s so interesting that there’s like this is what we’re talking about with Brian, right? That this visual stimulus kind of evokes um a sound and an emotion.

Ella: Yes.

but I brought to the table a table.

That the thing that I sort of most related to around to sound to find a space. And maybe it was a little bit literal and on the nose, but I’m very curious if you would share with us your experience of that and sort of tell, tell everybody what this is all about.

Faraz: Yeah, so this was, um, a TED Talk by, uh, Daniel Kish, right? So he was using sonar as a kind of method or a self developed tool to navigate the world.

I can’t remember if he said he was born blind or if there was, uh, so he was born blind.

Ella: I think very early age. It was lost to sight like as a baby. Yeah.

Faraz: right, so he had to adapt so that he could just live a normal life and I think this is the thing that was super interesting was that he was giving a little bit of a narrative of like his parents and their wishes for him was that, you know, it wasn’t raised with, I believe he said, it wasn’t raised with fear and that

Ella: hmm.

Faraz: this wasn’t something that was, you know, It wasn’t perceived as a disability.

It was just a different ability level and that most of the time the problem comes with people’s perception of what blindness means, right? Um, so I thought that was one really just interesting perspective of how he thought about life and how he thought about his journey through it. but he was talking about how as that one sense became diminished that he had other parts of his, uh, I guess his body right that compensated by other systems that took over right so like the ability to like he was using like clicking or other sounds.

It’s a way to like bounce off of other surfaces or other parts of the environment and he was able to interpret distance and shape and he gave a few examples that [00:35:00] which I think it was super interesting. We’ll make sure to link the video in the description too.

Ella: It blew my mind. So this is the thing that actually came up from Temple Grandin, the book I was reading, because it was talking about how people with Either disabilities like this, or our visual thinkers, like their visual cortex, like the literal part of their brain that handles that stuff, is either bigger or different.

And what Daniel was saying in that TED talk that I thought was crazy interesting was that, even though he can’t see, His visual cortex was like adapted to, and like, it was functioning. Like there was like in his mind, he could see what he was hearing. Right. And like the connection between his eyes didn’t necessarily work, but his ears had connected to his visual cortex.

And I thought that was like wild. Right.

Faraz: The neurology and like the neuroscience of all of this, I bet is just absolutely mind blowing. having a scientific understanding of what’s actually happening inside the brain and the body with all of this would be.

I would really love to understand more about what’s happening.

Ella: I know. And I wonder it’s like, how, like how much of like, Because we’re sighted, how much, how much are we not using that we could be, right? If we were to like to do like a sound walk in that way or like learn from him, you know, like, I don’t know. but I also thought like the idea you said about living without fear, there was something that actually kind of struck a chord with what he said there about kind of how Brian approaches his music.

It’s like, no, no fear. Like I’m gonna, like, I have.

Faraz: for some danger.

Ella: Yeah, exactly. Yep. And approaching it with like, I don’t know, a little bit of, um, well, not a little bit, a lot of courage and love for the world and his ability to share that was pretty interesting to me.

Faraz: I think his experience, and he gave this, um, a very literal, I mean, it’s a small example just to kind of demonstrate, but he was making kind of like a, like a, shushing, like a white noise kind of sound as he had like a, like a panel in front of his face and he would move it further away and closer.

you could kind of hear what the, um, the effect was and judging distance and everything. But it got me thinking about, and this is kind of what we were talking a little bit about earlier, right? So for architects and designers, right, we’re crafting this physical, um, emotional experience for somebody.

And, you know, if you use intention and you do this well, like, you can really help people. And you can make your space welcoming for, for people of different ability levels.

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: But what happens when you don’t? And you are either like, you’re creating a space that actually causes problems, or you’re maybe less intentional about it.

And you know, you’re accidentally creating spaces that are really challenging to navigate or, or difficult to be present in, right?

I just thought that was like a little eye opening of like, oh my god, like, this is actually, you could harm somebody.

Ella: yeah, lack of intention, I think does

create, I think more spaces are actually like that than are, than are not, um, and I guess maybe I wonder also maybe our audience could chime in at some point, but like, what are the things that we do to, to either accommodate or like kind of, like, if it’s a workplace, it’s like this, are there things that you bring in or do or change in your behavior to help compensate for that or out in the world, like how do, how are we navigating these challenges?

Um, and I wonder if there’s like a, there’s probably like a Reddit feed or, or something that’s like, where’s like the suggestion box for how to fix this stuff, right? Like,

like how do we, social media? I don’t know. But,

Faraz: And

there’s like really simple things, right? Like if you imagine like hospitality, right. Is a, a collection of environments, but you go to a restaurant, And I think this is something that I became, well, one, after I started working for Turf, but two, just, I think a lot of it was after the, um, a little bit after the pandemic, right?

You go into these spaces, you’re having dinner, maybe you’re, you know, with friends or family, um, and you’re trying to have a conversation with somebody and you just can’t hear them.

Because the space just sounds so bad. But like, that’s a thing that I feel like Maybe it was intentional in making it sound a certain way so that it felt like that restaurant was busy, but the negative implications of that end up affecting, you know, how somebody perceives themselves and, you know, maybe their guests in that space.

Ella: Yep. I think that’s definitely true. I like the, I have family members who aren’t on the hearing spectrum of the world. And so like between either cochlear implant or lip reading, but like we’re always conscious when we all go out to dinner, we’re doing things of like, how do we, do we find like a, either a [00:40:00] private dining room or can you see this in a big booth?

How do you see people so that like, You know, like, everybody has the best chances for inclusion in the conversation, like, yeah, like, I think, I think it’s important to think about all of these things.

Faraz: Yeah, and I think that’s a, like, as I was thinking about what Daniel was talking about and, like, some of the techniques he’s using. Um, the other end of that spectrum, right, is a space where you’ve kind of like hyper treated acoustically a space, and maybe it’s just a, an un nuanced view of things, or a very simplistic view of things, where, um, more is better, right, like you’ve reduced all the echo, all the reverberation out of a space, like, maybe not quite as severe as like an anechoic chamber or anything, but like, does that pose a, like a challenge to people?

Ella: I’m sure it does. I think that there’s, like, I think, like, you, you’ve mentioned this in some of our other conversations, but, like, there’s, like, the right level of noise, or, like, the right level of activity. For most people, for certain things, but we’re not all the same. And so I think it’s always about providing like a range of opportunities.

Faraz: Yeah.

Some choice.

you know, as we listen to all those conversations, right? We listen to Black Asteroid. We learned about the Soundwalk. We were learning about using sonar to navigate spaces. There’s a couple of things that come to mind. So, I think one. Acknowledging and understanding that I think there’s a very physical and emotional response that’s real, and that it’s important to take that into consideration, just depending on who’s in the space and what type of space it is.

Ella: Mm hmm.

Faraz: And then for me, there’s a second part that was more of a question, which is, I guess, is there a sound that belongs to a space?

Ella: Hmm.

Faraz: the sound walk, right? Each of those landscapes um evoked a sound that she interpreted. Like, is that true for every place? I

Ella: at it either. Right? Like, so like, I don’t know. I think that there’s infinite possibilities for those things.

And I think the other factor I’m curious about is like time, right? Like you said, you give the example of like a, a loud noisy restaurant. Well, at a certain time of day, maybe that isn’t. The case, or is less the case or, you know, and I guess maybe what I’d be curious to know is like, do people factor this into their experience of things, or are we just kind of falling victim to, to like having to be places when, when it, you know, on schedule or during the ascribed time for a set activity, but I’m curious about if people are intentional about This part of our experience, right?

Faraz: hope so and I think that maybe that’s a thing that I hope for. architects and designers is that It’s not so cut and dry. There isn’t an a one answer, but just ask

we’re more intentional about this and we have a more nuanced understanding, I think we’re we’re better serving

Ella: I like the idea of, or plurality. Like, you can be punk rock and have a Costco membership all

Faraz: Right.

Ella: time. Like, they’re not mutually exclusive things. But I think maybe that’s the other thing that’s kind of coming, like, out of, out of all of these sort of bits and pieces that we’ve explored today.

Is that, like,

spaces have different Energies and activities at different times.

And like, are we as designers, not only are we paying attention as we use spaces, but are we paying attention to sort of like the duality of, of each space as we craft it, create it and, um, experience it. I don’t know. I’m really curious to hear what people have to say about this. Um, and like, I’m sure there’s big chunks that were sort of missing here.

We only explored a few things, but I’m curious about how this shows up in other people’s lives.

Faraz: Yeah. I mean, I think with that being said, we’d love to be able to hear from any of our listeners about what, what they’re experiencing or maybe how they think about designing with sound in mind.

Ella: Yeah. Yep.

Faraz: Cool.

Well,

Ella: well.

Faraz: Thanks for listening to Sense of Space. This Schulte with help from associate producers Moti Tavassoli and Patricia Gonzalez.

Ella: Sense of Space is a TERF podcast and was brought to you by the Surround Network by Sandow Design Group. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surroundpodcasts, plural, dot com.

Faraz: And don’t forget to leave. a five star review on your podcast platform of choice, and feel free to leave any feedback by hitting up Ella on the other end of a tin can.

Ella: Or you can slide into our DMs.

[00:45:00]