Building Hope in Motion

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AJ: Welcome to Once Upon a Project, the podcast where we uncover the stories behind the spaces that shape our world from the first spark of an idea. To the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, AJ Paron. This season, we're diving

into the connection between design and wellness. How the environments we create can support healing, nurture, resilience, and elevate human experience in the ways that science is only beginning to understand.

Today. The story is a real personal one for me. Like many families, mine has been touched by Parkinson's disease. And I've seen firsthand how deeply it affects not only the person diagnosed, but everyone around them.

That's why I'm so excited about the project we're talking about today, one that Reimagines how design can support people living with [00:01:00] Parkinson's and their loved ones.

Joining me are two designers from Gensler who are leading a remarkable new project in Detroit, a free facility for the Kirk Gibson Foundation that combines exercise, community, and support for people with Parkinson's disease.

I'm thrilled to welcome creative director Lily Diego, based in Gensler's Detroit office, and Michael Scher, global wellness leader from Gensler, Chicago.

Lily and Michael, welcome to Once Upon A Project.

Michael: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Lily: This is great. I'm so excited to talk about this with you.

AJ: let's start at the beginning. How did this partnership with the Kirk Gibson Foundation come about and what was the vision for this space when you first got involved?

Lily: This was a remarkable kind of connection We have a mutual friend and colleague, who has Parkinson's, who's also on the board. The Kirk Gibson Foundation. So when the Kirk Gibson [00:02:00] Foundation, was undergoing the idea of opening this center, they were going to reach out to a number of architects as partners to be able to help visualize what this new innovative space could be like. Luckily, one of the board members knew the managing director of the Detroit office. And reached out to us and through great conversation and partnership and collaboration of the wonderful work that Michael and his team has done, we were able to, present, a great idea that would be mainly about how can we co-author and co consider what a facility of, of its kind.

The first of its kind could be like for the Kurt Gibson Center.

AJ: So Michael, walk me through what the challenge was of the project from the very beginning. What were they trying to accomplish?

Michael: there's a lot that we were looking at at the beginning of the project, really specifically around what is a Parkinson's Wellness Center and really being able to define this as a first of its kind, uh, within the [00:03:00] country. And so for a lot of what we started with was how do we think holistically about what wellness and wellbeing and what.

Different dimensions that we should really be focusing on and being to elevate across the, across the project here. And so really that was, that was how we really entered the project, was thinking about how are we able to think about not just the individuals who have. Parkinson's, but what does it mean for the family members?

What does it mean for the caregivers? How can we start to think about all of their needs, not just necessarily physical movement and motion and how we can start to design for that, but how do we start to think about the program and the strategy that can really start to create a very different environment that builds community in, in a really holistic way.

Lily: that's what's so great too, 'cause it was such. In alignment with, the Kirk Gibson Foundation's vision because this was, a independent. Facility, separate from a healthcare system, but it [00:04:00] would be free for individuals. A program that provides those services free for individuals.

They wanted to ensure that unique type of community-based type of support. So, like Michael was saying, in terms of creating that environment that was not only for those, you know, afflicted with the Parkinson's. syndrome or disease. It was also for the caretakers and families who would also be part of this holistic unit that would be living, with Parkinson's.

So it was so well aligned in, in terms of how can we share that vision and creating that space.

AJ: And I know from my loved ones that there currently there's not a cure for Parkinson's. There's a lot of treatments and there's a lot of things that you can do, but it's, it's also very new. So tell us a little bit of how. How they're trying to treat people with Parkinson's. That might be different than like if you went to a hospital or if you went to your regular doctor's office.

Like what's, what's unique about the wellness center?

Michael: what's important here is that we're not necessarily treating Parkinson's, disease, and that [00:05:00] this isn't necessarily about a. A specific point of care, but that we're creating a place to allow individuals and their family members to, build community, but also stay active and have movement that that can start to pull them forward.

And so, you know, how we think about this is really in addition to any, you know, clinical treatment that's happening, and really allowing this. Place to be a draw for individuals, especially, you know, in a beginning and an early diagnosis where their world has been turned upside down and the questions start to become around, well how do I live my life?

And do people, you know, a lot of times people are kind of moving inward and you know, as Kirk would say, often during the design process. Parkinson's makes your world a lot smaller, especially at that diagnosis. And how can we expand that smaller world? How can we think about the ways that we can really pull people out, allow them to have a home, a place that they want to go to, um, and really allow them to know that.

This is a disease that they can live with. And this is a disease that, [00:06:00] you know, you can manage. Um, it's gonna make your life a little bit different. Um, but that you're still able to do so many of those things that, that you really love and are a part of that. And so, you know, I think at its core that's what the, the mission of this center is and how we've been thinking about what the design does, but really thinking how do you expand someone's world?

Um, and how can we use a place and a space to be able to do that in a really meaningful way.

AJ: That is so critical for families and people that are suffering from this disease. I know my great grandmother had Parkinson's. My grandmother had Parkinson's. All of her sisters had Parkinson's and. What has been really interesting to me is when my grandmother got the diagnosis, it was like a death sentence, right?

We don't know what to do. We can't even confirm that you have this, but this is what's going to happen to you. And there wasn't a whole lot of treatment options. You just basically waited [00:07:00] your life out. when my uncle got diagnosed, he was in his fifties and he is an amazing man. He was in Top Gun, he was on the joint chief of staff.

He is an A type personality and knows how to get things done. So I had sent him to this treatment center. He took it on, got through the denial, but basically built all these supports like what you're talking about around him. Now we go to a, a different aunt and that is not what they wanted to do. That is they didn't want to do exercise.

They didn't wanna try these treatments. They didn't, they didn't really wanna go to the, to the support group that they had there. And so you could see a real market difference. And you know, my uncle has been living with Parkinson's. He's in the eighties now. And he got diagnosed when he was 50, and he's still driving very, very fast.

you can see the power of exercise and the [00:08:00] community of how. If you don't wanna build that for yourself, guess what? It's really hard to have someone that's in denial to be able to do that.

Lily: Yeah. the Kirk and Center, the motto is movement matters. cause it is such an important ethos to what, you know, Kirk is, is, is telling everybody.

And the beautiful thing about the center is, not only is it focused around movement. Because it does matter, but it's also focused on choice. So the, activity based programs, the cognitive health, you know, wellness activities there are based on choice. So things aren't prescriptive in terms of saying this is what you must do in order for you to live this type of quality life.

But it is about engagement. And activation and motivation. So the space was developed, you know, based on a lot of conversations on how can we help motivate so that individuals feel that they have the ownership of their lives and their future, you know, um, treatment and [00:09:00] what they wanna do. Which is so important in terms of when you are activated by your own, uh, choice of how you can, uh, move along with your diagnosis, then you're gonna be so much more invested in terms of how you're going to, um, have your quality of life be.

So when you can motivate around activity-based programs that are within a community space, so that you're like, oh my gosh, I see. People doing amazing on those spin bikes or they're, they're boxing and I can do that. I wanna be a part of that, This is what this center does, is it helps motivate by showing that there's a variety of different activities that you can be involved in, in all, you know, areas of what that means.

Michael: at the beginning of the project, like very early on, we had a number of conversations with, you know, individuals and. You know, engaged with the, with the foundation, a lot of conversations with Kirk and his family. And we came up with what we call the eight Es, uh, for the project, which were [00:10:00] really the, the jobs to be done for the building, um, and for the center itself.

And they really build on everything that Lily was just talking about. And, you know, a. Looked at this at a variety of different scales. And so we had the first E was encourage, right? How do we get people out of their home? How do we encourage them to try new things? How do we encourage them to be a part of this?

The second one, and maybe they don't necessarily need to go into any kind of order here, but, um, you know, empower, um, thinking about how do we empower individuals, um. With this disease or their family members with it. Education is another one that was really huge to make sure that this isn't just about allowing for, um, that movement to happen, but how can we start to educate individuals?

How can we allow people to educate one another and again, continue to build that community? enrich was another job or another e that that folded into this because it really was about an enrichment of life, right? You're coming here because you're going to feel enriched, uh, again. Whether you are a, a member or an individual who [00:11:00] has Parkinson's or a family member, uh, we talked a little bit about expanding.

Um, the, the job needs to really start to expand. It needs to engage and allow for a different, a variety of different types of engagement. Um, the, a big one that I love is really the, it needs to embrace. It needs to be a place that is welcoming, and allowing people to feel comfortable when they're there.

and then the last one here is energize people need to feel like they have that energy, they have that movement. It's not gonna be every day, right? But maybe when you come to the to the center, it's gonna leave you feeling a little bit more energized than when you start it.

Lily: Yeah, it's so great ma it's a game changer for them. You know, they were like, we've been waiting for a space like this. And to have a space like this be the things that we didn't even know we needed was, you know, it was, it was beyond fulfilling and rewarding to hear, that the vision that Kirk and his team had is ex doing exactly what it needed to do

AJ: You can see how that energy that energy's transferred to you. It's transferring to me right now. Like you can see it's [00:12:00] that positivity. So let's talk a little bit about the physical space, what did you consciously have to think differently about in order to try and get as much encouragement, you know, in empowerment to these, people that are getting treated so they can, you know, hopefully reach their utmost potential.

Lily: one of the key areas of the space is that central hub. that is the heart of the space. And it is a, a, a double height space that acts as that center. when you first are welcomed into the space with your family, it's a lot of times where your first, engagement with a trainer or a consultant would be with. and it is a space that is physically, placed where. When you're sitting in it, you can see almost every activity based room. So you can

see [00:13:00] where the three different gyms are. You can see where the pool table and the games are. You can see the spin room, the rock room, the art room. So you're in a place where when you sit down, you can see the full engagement of all the activities that are provided within that space.

So it is just by proximity. And visibility, that connectivity happens where people are easily motivated because they're, they can see like, I can do that. And that was, spoken about quite a bit from, you know, from Kirk and his team about just that motivating factor of how you can feel empowered when you see others. You know, so how can we ensure that these activities are not behind closed doors, but they're open and, and easily accessible to others.

AJ: I think about when you go to an occupational therapist or a physical therapist the treatment happens. Behind the closed door, and you actually can't see what other people are doing at all because of privacy issues.

Michael: this is truly a community [00:14:00] center, at its heart. And I think just from barriers from the beginning. This is, this is an adaptive reuse project. This project is going into, what was formally an amenity gym space for, uh. automotive organization. There was a lot of workspace, that was within it.

And so as you're able to move in, to that space, Kirk's office, um, is right along that path, which is another really, you know, I think powerful move. And when we think about adjacencies and what people are seeing and how are they welcomed in Kirk in so many ways is, you know, a, a hero to so many, um, from

AJ: And he's a bit of a celebrity.

Michael: Kirk was a former, MLB uh, star, if you will. a major league baseball player. he played for the Los Angeles Dodgers as well as for the Detroit Tigers winning World Series with both teams. And there is a, I think, love for him, that is really powerful and also a draw to others.

I think as we talked about the design of the space and what could be within it, he didn't necessarily say [00:15:00] that he needed to be everywhere. It didn't need to be the famous, there's a famous image of him from, uh, the World Series where he had hit the home run and he does a big fist pump. and that's an enduring image that shows up over and over again of, of

AJ: And it's an e enduring

Michael: Yes, there you go. We, but you know, it wasn't that that needed to be plastered everywhere. the recognition of, you know, the power of him, his. Brand, the, the history that he has and what he's able to do for others with Parkinson's and allow them to kind of come in and be invited into that space is really important.

it really starts to become about the community space and then everything else that starts to work off of it.

And so, How we think about that design and how we thought about just making sure the adjacencies were there and we're getting the right amount of natural light into that space and we're able to share those, the, that light and those moments became really kind of critical to, again, de-stigmatizing coming to a place, um, that is for Parkinson's or for individuals and family with Parkinson's.

AJ: I [00:16:00] mean, we, we've seen that with the Michael J. Fox Foundation too, that when people have proximity or know that, oh gee, I might be able to get to meet him or be at this event with him. it's a different trajectory,

Lily: And the beautiful thing about it too is Kirk is not trying to be the rock star of the space. Like he knows that his, um, his perseverance through, you know, major league baseball is definitely a draw, but he's actively using all parts of that gym. one of the last times I was there, he was literally putting up all the boxing bags, that's the joy I think that this foundation and the center is all about because it's doing exactly what, you know, everyone's hoping it would do. it's promoting that movement, that movement matters.

AJ: Yes, it does. And Michael, you're an expert in that because you're the wellness leader for Gensler. So we know from years of research and workplace environments and built environments, how is this different? how did you have to think about Movement in a different way for this center?

Michael: Yeah, I think, you know, we wanted to [00:17:00] promote active design as much as we could. You know, allowing individuals to be able to move from one place to the next, but also making sure that we do have those moments for rest and those moments to be able to. To, you know, take a seat and relax. Right? There's, there's challenges that come with that.

I think, you know, some of the, the components of this that are really interesting is when we start to think about furniture, um, solutions and how we're thinking about those different types of furniture arrangements and seatings, and knowing that a little bit higher of a, of a seat makes it easier for individuals to stand up.

And so we have a variety of different types of seating. Uh, again, they're all of a, of a quality and of a, of a finish that. Does not look clinical in any way. That was the intent was for us to, again, make this feel as residential or as, um, you know, kind of more commercial as possible. And so to be able to leverage those in different types of seating arrangements to again, be able to give choice and variety to that, uh, became really important.

We also [00:18:00] know that, you know, there are certain patterns and things that can be challenges for individuals with Parkinson's, and so really making sure that we're looking at the right use of. Color, um, how we're tying that to patterns and materials, whether it's, uh, carpet or, uh, wall coverings and paint to be able to make sure that it isn't necessarily queuing, um, individuals in a negative way.

AJ: Give us some examples of like what things. Like that could be a problem for someone

Lily: so we went through a variety of different, you know, choices just because we know a lot of, um, high contrast patterns can also just be very jarring, you know, uh, visually jarring. And it just, um, it, it creates kind of like an eye twitch.

That is, associated with like

epilepsy and triggering seizures, you know, so being very careful with just high contrast patterns. even the, the spatial quality of patterns as well in high contrast is something to be considerate of. And just also the, uh, texture. So even when you're looking at flooring [00:19:00] transitions or the, the height and pile of certain flooring, the ease to which, you know, one can walk across or shuffle across it is very important to consider because that is something that is, a consideration with someone with Parkinson's.

And then even with the furniture, so a lot of the furniture, whether it was, you know, custom millwork built in. Or if it was, you know, loose furniture, they always have an area where you can kind of easily push off of, or higher seat heights.

There's also just a diversity of seat heights because of that, a diversity of plush to firmness. On the seating as well. the swivel of how, the chairs work or even the bases of the chairs. So a lot of times, you know, being, taking into consideration the kind of base a chair swivel has sometimes provides for more stability. So all of these we're taking into consideration the light quality. So, nothing within the facility is at a high daylight, so you're not gonna have 35 [00:20:00] to 4,000 Calvin because of that. Everything is at a, um, a softer quality. So something like Michael was saying, is a little bit more residential. It's just a softer quality of light throughout the entire space.

AJ: Safety's always a big concern as well. So what safety issues did you have to consider

Lily: some of the existing, you know, parameters we had to, to work around, um, because it was an automotive company, this was part of their fitness facility, They used half of it as a fitness, so they kept the, the elevated, walking path.

But then downstairs right now the, the current gyms are used to be lab rooms, so they were kind of like acoustically, um, sound labs for testing. So there was a lot of various. Grade levels that were happening. And so we had to take into consideration all those different grade levels and how to adjust for it.

So the certain types of slopes that were very easy to transition from, it was literally just a three inch grade difference, but it was enough [00:21:00] for us to kind of increase that slope. So it was an easier slope than, than traditional or, handrails that were in place for just kind of walking past when there were, you know, that type of transition. we opened up walls in very few places, but again, that was for connectivity and visibility. So a lot of just that comfort and safety of knowing that you could see through to certain places where things, so there wasn't a lot of just closed off corners in the facility. was, was definitely part of the. the Wanted program to just make sure that everything was so easily connected and visible.

AJ: So you guys have described this project as deeply experiential, So what are some of the ways you've created an environment that's uplifting, that's empowering and supportive? All the ease, right? For the, for the [00:22:00] users. how, how have you made it feel different?

I.

Lily: color was something that Kirk and his team wanted to ensure, was bright and activating, and it was surprising how involved they were in choosing certain color palettes in certain patterns. the first charge was, we do not want this to be a gym. We don't want this to be a spa,

AJ: Somewhere in

between.

Lily: But it has to kind of perform with some of those qualities. and in the end it was really this, this beautiful palette that was. Almost universal for everyone felt comfortable with. So it was a tone that incorporated, very earthy, but uplifting colors, you know, from the orange, the yellows, the blues. there is a banner right now that goes in the double height space that has the motto of movement manners, and it has a variety of individuals showing how movement matters within that banner. It's the celebration of what we can do. And it is in that, vibrant tone. Kirk asked specifically, he is like, [00:23:00] this does not have to be tigers blue and orange. You know, so we were, we were like, okay, but, blue and orange are beautiful colors to use. And he goes, well, just don't use it in the Tiger's way, you know?

AJ: No more baseball

Lily: Right. So we used it with a, you know, with a lot of complimentary tones and we kind of, you know, honed it down so it was more earthy, sky blue and more of

that terracotta orange, you know, so it just felt very natural and organic to the space.

Michael: we really wanted to bring as much nature into the space as we could, and you know, the constraints of the building itself that we were adapting to. There's even a grade change from, you know, where the plantings are on the exterior to coming in. So you do get this really nice.

On the window wall exposure to the plantings and the lower plantings that are there, but really thinking about how to bring nature into the project as much as possible. As Lily said it, it wasn't a gym. We were explicitly told, this is not a hospital, this is not a clinic, this is not a school. There were a lot of things that we're told that we were [00:24:00] told.

This is not, um, which is great 'cause we get to create something, something new and different, but finding ways to bring nature into this, uh, whether it's the, the green wall that's, uh, near the. cafe area or other plantings that are dispersed, uh, throughout the project. It became really important and a lot of the conversations that we had to get us there were really with Kirk and his team around where are those places that bring you relief, that bring you a sense of calm?

I know we talked about a. Energizing and being able to bring that forward. But what are those other places that people can feel like they're themselves? And nature was a big component of that. And so finding ways, even talking about ways to bring sounds into that. You know, one of Kirk's go-to places is his, is his lodge, and going on walks and hearing.

The ducks and hearing everything kind of making noise in nature was really important to him. And so how do we bring some of that into the space was another component of just how do we start to layer this project with meaning [00:25:00] and feeling that this wasn't a place that you are typically going to, but something that's very different and allows you to really feel at home.

AJ: you're both working at the intersection of design and science what do you hope the long-term impact of this project will be? Not just for the people that use it, but for how we think about designing for wellness more broadly.

Michael: very much like the mission of this project, we start off, we're gonna do this as a pilot, as a prototype, and we hope that this is something that can be rolled out across the country, whether it's, you know, in other locations within Michigan, or it's starts coming down to Chicago, or we're able to think about

AJ: Bring it to Minnesota.

Michael: and bring it up to

AJ: Minneapolis. Yes.

Michael: thinking about how this can be replicated, uh, in a variety of different ways, I think is really important. Uh, but I also think from, you know, what this project has shown me is that we can do a lot with a little. And that we can take spaces that may be [00:26:00] underutilized or may not be thought of, but are geographically in a great location to be able to pull from all the individuals that are there and turn it into something that's really transformative.

And I think how we start to think about layering. Not just the physical space because that's super important here, but how do we think about the operations? How do we think about the programming? How are we thinking about the adjacencies to really, again, holistically look at individuals health and wellbeing and not just those who are suffering, but the families and everyone else that are engaged with that.

To me, that's where we're going and that's where we need to continue to go, to be able to push this forward and really create these places that have. Deep impact for individuals and communities, uh, at a, at a really a broader scale.

AJ: So, Lily, the ribbon cutting for this center is happening soon. Right?

Lily: It is. It's happening this coming Monday on October 6th.

AJ: Wow. And we're in 2025 right now, I know people have been in the space, people are using the space. What feedback have you [00:27:00] gotten of how this space Im is impacting the people that are using it?

Lily: the best comments I've received so far is that it is, it's a game changer. You know, it has uplifted their lives in ways that they didn't think was even available to them. So, similar to what Michael was saying in terms of this was, you know, this is a pilot, you know, hopefully there could be more like it. That is the feedback that's coming is that this has been in the short amount of time that it has been open, you know, it has had such an impact that. The idea of making this a replicable space is being taken very seriously. You know, and the idea that we've kind of shook or, you know, more so the Kirk Gibson Foundation has shook the, you know, processes in terms of this as an independent. Type of a facility and program that is providing something that is non-prescriptive and focusing so, like so much on whole health [00:28:00] wellness around cognitive and, um, activity-based programs that is a co-author type of, uh, rehabilitation is, is such a. Dynamic thing that yes, you want more of this, you know?

And right now, when we were first going through this, there's one other. Facility of its kind. And so how can we get more? So that's, I think, what is the greatest type of feedback is how can this become more of the norm?

How can this type of, program and space be more of the norm?

AJ: As a designer thinking for the future, yes, we want this to be a pilot, but is there anything that you saw in the design process that you were like, huh, I should maybe do this for my other projects, or, this was a really interesting angle that I hadn't really thought about before.

Lily: Mm-hmm. We always talk about how collaborative design is, and sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not so much, you know, it's, we, we try to make it as collaborative as possible. [00:29:00] This was one of those where every. Every phase of the design process was collaborative. We had to gain knowledge from others in ways that helped amplify our understanding of what space and behavior could do so that we could, you know, continue to design appropriately. we workshopped straight from the beginning. It was always a workshop type of conversation that started always with, with Kirk and his team, and we just kept inviting others to that. And it was, there was a cadence that was continuous throughout the entire process. I would love to see more of that. I think we should be doing more of that in all of our design projects where it is always a, An open, larger conversation, you know, to make sure that our ideas are always, enhanced.

Michael: the ability to, do a lot with a little, uh, is, is where I come back to and the amount of impact that. [00:30:00] Paint selections can have or just, you know, how you think about reusing spaces like where the offices go or just the, the move of a reception desk from being something that is a barrier to something that's inviting.

Um, these little moves that have great impact are ones that I think we need to think about more and more throughout our design. It doesn't always have to be the. Biggest splashiest thing that we're doing, but it really can be those smaller things like poking a hole through that wall so that you can see the movement that's happening within the gym, as an example, is enough.

You don't have to tear the wall down. You don't have to think about the restructuring. Yes, that might be nice. Maybe it would be good to have glass in there. Um, but we can do smaller things that have just as much impact. Uh, that we can start to go forward. And I think as designers, we need to think about those steps and those, those opportunities in ways that allow us to, again, continue to make sure that we're supporting the missions of the projects and the, the people that we're designing [00:31:00] for.

AJ: Wow. Lily and Michael, thank you so much for sharing this story, this project. It's, it's really a beautiful example of how design can transform not just the spaces but the lives that are in it. And I just have to say, you know, from a personal perspective with someone with family members living with Parkinson's, it's really moving.

To see design used in this way. It really gives me hope for what the future can look like when we bring empathy, science, and creativity all together to solve problems. So thank you for the work that you've done and I want to come and look at the project. So I might be taking your trip to Detroit soon, so that's.

Lily: Yes. Thank you for letting us share it.

Michael: Yes, thank you. A.

AJ: And to everyone listening, you can learn more about the Kirk Gibson Foundation and its mission to support those living with Parkinson's and see the center By [00:32:00] visiting kirk gibson center.org. And of course, we'll keep following this project as it takes shape in Detroit. A huge thanks to our brilliant production team, Rob Schulte, Rachel Senator, and Veri Lister.

If you love this episode and want to hear more like it, head to surround podcast.com, your hub for design stories that matter. I'm AJ Paron, and this has been Once Upon a Project. Join us next time as we continue exploring the stories behind the projects, shaping the future of design and the lives of the people who inhabit them.