Building a Non-Toxic Hospital

This transcript was made in part by an automated service, in some cases it may contain errors.

AJ: [00:00:00] Welcome to Once Upon a project where we Welcome to Once Upon a project where we uncover the powerful stories behind the spaces shaping our world. I'm your host, AJ Perone Today. I'm honored to welcome Eric Corey Freed an award-winning architect, author, and sustainability provocateur. At Canon Design, Eric has long challenged us to rethink how buildings can heal, inspire, and empower.

So in this episode. We dive into a few projects that take that mission to heart. Like for instance, in a hospital designed with one bold goal, no cancer causing chemicals in a place dedicated to treating cancer how novel. So from shifting the narrative around sustainability to uncovering how zip codes can be stronger predictors of health than genetics, Eric shares what it takes.

To design with conscience [00:01:00] and compassion. Let's get into it. Hey Eric, how you doing?

Eric: I am great. How are you?

AJ: Good. Eric, you've spent a lot of your career reframing how we think about sustainability, but I would like you to talk a little bit about what fuels your work today.

Eric: I find that the older I get, the lighter my grip on reality becomes that I'm, that I just start. I just start asking questions that I think my inner 8-year-old is curious about. probably started about 15 years ago, but it started this line of questioning with the clients that became very intimate and personal and familiar. And it requires trust. They have to trust me. I have to trust them. But asking questions and some of the questions are on their surface absurd.

AJ: Like are you asking them if they wanna go to the moon? Like what are you asking them? That's weird and bizarre.

Eric: Well, there's so many things in buildings and construction that just happen automatically. They happen by default. It's almost like. Boilerplate. So I [00:02:00] started, I started, I have this exercise that I do and I, I just call it assumptions mapping, and that's kind of the fancy polite word for what it is. But I just throw up a blank thing on the screen and I go, okay, what are our assumptions for this project?

And usually the clients will say, oh, we're open-minded and we're enlightened, and we're cool and innovative, and we have no assumptions. I'm like, oh, great. So we're not gonna do drywall on the project. It's not given that we're doing drywall. On the project and they're like, oh no, we're doing drywall. Okay.

Okay. So there that would be an assumption. So let's write that down. But that's it. Right? And it's, it's kind of absurd. And they go, yeah, but that's it. Just drywall and nothing else. Okay. So we're not doing vinyl floor in the hospital that every hospital does vinyl floor.

AJ: Because they all

Eric: or vinyl wall covering 'cause they all do it.

Yeah, we're gonna do that too. Okay. So then it, it starts to open their mind to the possibility that so much of what we do is on autopilot and the decisions are being made and they've never been questioned. And I feel that my job as a subject matter [00:03:00] expert in this case, in the field of sustainability, which encompasses energy, carbon health, water waste, operations, and so forth, my job is to push back on them a little bit so it, when I say that I've been letting go of my grip of reality. I've be, the older I get, the more the, the more the pushier I I'm becoming and pushing them on it. So it started with this very simple thing of, let's question our assumptions. And then it led into really me hammering them and yelling and yelling at them in meetings. To the point of which I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm gonna get fired.

I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be homeless. What's gonna happen here? But, but really kind of taking, taking a big risk, knowing that it's all in service. To making a better project and really in service to, to the patients and staff and occupants and residents and visitors and whomever is coming to this building.

AJ: So it's almost like you're reverse engineering because you are going in going, this is what everyone's gonna think that you're going to [00:04:00] do.

Eric: it's exactly what I'm doing. I'm doing a technique called back casting. and I'm doing it through humor and absurdity to prove a point. there, you know, and of course there's nothing sexier than dissecting a joke to really explain why it's funny. But that's really what, that's really what, that's really what I'm doing. Yeah. I'm, I'm back casting from an ideal future state that I want, and for me, the ideal future state is I. This is a hundred percent renewable energy.

It's a hundred percent zero carbon. It is zero harm, including no chemicals of concern. It's zero water, meaning that we're not only collecting and rehosting and then reusing and capturing water, but using it more efficiently and then zero waste in all of its forms. That's the ideal future state, a truly, you know, what I would call living building.

And so instead of me pushing uphill saying, Hey, do you want a green roof? And they go, no, like that. That's usually the response I

AJ: That's exactly what they sound like too

Eric: Yeah, instead of me saying that, um, instead my tact is, what if we can improve the quality of the experience and the outcomes for [00:05:00] everybody in the building?

So if we're designing a school, what if we boost patient, uh, you know, student performance and test outcomes? Uh, if we're designing a a, a a business, what if we could reduce. Um, absenteeism and boost collaboration. And if we're designing a hospital, what if we could boost patient recovery outcomes? What if we could improve immune response?

And it turns out we can do these things. We have these magic superpower every designer does. But we've been, shall I say, reluctant to tap into these superpowers because of this momentum, this inertia of the defacto default state of assumption. And what we end up with,

AJ: Don't you think it's, it's also process, Eric, because like we get so ingrained to, well this is the design process and step one is this, and step two is that, and that people even, you know, clients with their own RFP process about how they go around buildings. They don't think about it upside down. They don't think about it in a different way.

And it [00:06:00] sounds like you really have to shake it all up to make it different.

Eric: well the, the RFP process, especially because, it's amazing how much scarcity based thinking creeps into the RFP language itself, how much they lead out and what they don't say. And I, I, for, for us, a Canada design, we started this idea of what is the RFP not saying.

When, what are, what are kind of the hidden words there? These things do not exist in a vacuum. So if, if a healthcare system is putting out an RFP for a new cancer center, yes, every architect in the country is probably excited and looking at it, but I'm more interested in, in, in the organization itself, what has been their trajectory over the last 20 years?

What have they been moving towards? What have been the. The sustainability goals that they publicly stated that aren't mentioned at all in the RFP, but I know that are there 'cause they're on their website and what has been their progress towards those goals? Where are they, where are they likely stumbling?

And [00:07:00] so this to me is, I'm, I'm reading the tea leaves a bit, but it's, it's interesting and it leads to a much higher level of engagement and discussion in a conversation when we do talk with them. In other words, what I'm saying is I'm not waiting for the RFP to ask me for sustainability, I'm assuming.

Every client has sustainability needs, whether they realize it or not. And what I'm doing it is as I'm saying, Hey, do you realize that you have these sustainability goals? And how is this project gonna help contribute to those goals? And by the way, if you don't think this is important, your competitors certainly do.

So here, your competitors and what they're doing towards their sustainability goals, I'm taking very much a data informed approach. To sustainability, but I'm doing it in this fun way where we're laughing about it, but that's really just my sugar taking medicine down kind of, kind of thing.

I'm not as interested in win rate as I am, as the quality of the conversation I'm having with the, with the client, which sounds weird, [00:08:00] but we have countless examples of, I'll, I'll give you a quick one if I may. We received an RFP for a new headquarters for a, a public utility. At the same time, I had observed that this utility had been slowly decommissioning Coalfire power plants on their path towards, uh, zero zero emissions.

So I put a question to them of, Hey, instead of us going over here and building a brand new building from scratch with all the carbon and all the other stuff, and instead of me trying to convince you to make it mass timber or low carbon, what if we just took one of your decommissioned power plants and turned that into your headquarters, literally a phoenix from the ashes, like you'd

AJ: Wow.

Eric: build, building on the bones of 19th and 20th century infrastructure to build a 21st century headquarters. I know that's not what you asked for, but to me that's a much as, are you open to that idea? Are you interested in it? Because if so, we'll go all in and show you what it could be. they love the idea so much. They withdrew the RFP [00:09:00] and then issued a new one.

AJ: Oh my gosh. That's so great.

Eric: the, the opportunity was there in front of them. They just weren't, you know, again, the momentum was, well, we we're growing and that's success, and success deems that we need a new headquarters and so let's build a new headquarters.

Right? All those things that make total sense. But I, I just liked, um, the sim symbolism of, of the question. And what I especially loved is my team was like. Right there. Like, yes, let's do that. Perfect. And they were all in because I, they could have told me that, they could have said, shut up, freed. That's dumb.

You're freed, you're ruining this. Which is, you know, what I expect to hear all the time. But, that questioning of the status quo at, at this, you know, at this point of in my life as an architect and designer, that's, that, that's a much more interesting process.

AJ: I'm imagining you as a five-year-old and how much your mother probably loved this side of you of shut up, freed. You gotta stop asking me 155 questions.

Eric: My, my, my, my, my poor mother. Uh, [00:10:00] no, my, you know, I was, uh, um, cutting holes into the walls and rearranging furniture and, and taking things apart, and I was not, I was troublesome

AJ: Yeah, I, I can imagine. Okay, so let's get into the A project now. What project do you wanna start with?

Eric: I wanna start with, with one of my first projects when I, I joined Canon six years ago, and this is one of the, this is probably the first big, what you call a strategic pursuit. This was, this was one that the healthcare team really wanted. They had really been positioning to, to be, um, at least, uh, in the, in the running for it.

And it was the University of Chicago, um, medicine cancer center, a new cancer tower. In the heart of Chicago and it was one of the first really big, like I said, strategic pursuits, meaning we we're all in. We really want this, this so identifies like who we are. This so hits on so many things that we could really bring to the client, like we think we could do a great job. This was very much a, they're all, they're [00:11:00] all very much a group effort. There were, there were a lot of amazing things that I, I won't bore everybody with, but there were a lot of amazing things that the design team had come up with about, um, well, if we're gonna put this thing in the middle of Chicago, the ground floor suddenly becomes very important.

Instead of, instead of a cancer center being a, a roped off walled exclusive garden that nobody can get into, what if we activated the ground floor? What would that mean? What would that look like? And so we had a lot of these ideas around community. but it also led to some other conversations of, well, the social de determinants of health and the south side of Chicago are really poor. Life expectancy can vary by as much as 20 years simply by living in the south side of Chicago versus other parts of Chicago.

That disparity is troublesome. In fact, it's maddening to be honest with you. Like how? How in the United States of America in the 21st century could there be a 20 year difference in your life expectancy simply by where you live? And so it started raising other questions that the client was very keen on, which is, um.

What if we offered free [00:12:00] cancer screenings for everybody in the community, what would that look like? What would that mean? What would that do for you? And, and they're open to all of it. So there are a lot of that kind of things. One of the things that I really took away You have to remember that every single person coming to a cancer center is terrified. They're either about to get a diagnosis, which could change their life, or they're about to embark on treatment, which hopefully will save their life. But everybody coming there is terrified.

AJ: Yes.

Eric: And that's a striking thing that's very different than if you're designing a mall where everybody's happy to go

AJ: absolutely right.

Eric: or a school which they look forward to every day, hopefully.

Um, so it's, it's a very different typology. We also design a lot of children's hospitals and our children's hospitals. They are, they're wonderful places to be in because they're bright and colorful and, but they're also, you know, speaking as a parent and someone who, you know, loves to see children thriving, it, they're hard to be [00:13:00] in.

but if everybody coming to the cancer center is terrified or everybody coming to the children's hospital is terrified because of what might the future might bring,

AJ: Right.

Eric: it started, it started this, I was interested in this field of neuroscience called neuro architecture.

This idea that spaces can affect how you feel. In fact, they can even infect your brain chemistry. So I asked a question to the team and then we eventually asked it to the client, and the question simply was. What if we designed the lobby and the reception desk to deliberately trigger serotonin in their brain to make them feel calm and at ease?

If everybody coming here is terrified, what if we, what if we were to do that, like on purpose? Um. And the first question from everybody was, well, is that possible? The answer is yes, it's totally possible. The second question is, well, what would it look like? And it's like, well, would it involve day lighting and bio affiliate color and contrast things that we're already doing, but it would be much more intentional.

And then what would it mean for the client? And then it led [00:14:00] to a bigger conversation. Hey, I've got a wacky idea What if we didn't put, I don't know, cancer causing chemicals in the cancer center?

You know, where the cancer people are? Like, maybe wouldn't that be a wacky idea and just doing real crazy, but doing it that big and absurd question because it's an absurd question I in, in a, you have to realize that as there's a certain part of me that feels it is not even my place to even. Ask a question because that is so beyond what most architects do.

There's another part of me as a lifelong environmentalist and as a human saying, who's angry, that I even need to ask the question. And this is the last six years of asking this question to now dozens of clients, especially cancer centers and children's hospitals. But I do it on every project. Now this has been the most fascinating to me 'cause it's opened up, a flaw in how we build our buildings. I find what they say in that 20 to [00:15:00] 30 seconds after, after I'm, I'm like, suddenly serious. I'm like, no, I'm serious. We're not gonna put cancer causing chemicals in the cancer center. We're agreed. Right? I'm looking around the room and everybody's making eye contact with me. We're all agreed. Their smiles go away, and in that 30 seconds, something happens.

It's a, a transformation and it's fear. You can smell it in the room.

AJ: Was gonna say they're, they're probably terrified 'cause they're like, oh

Eric: Oh, shit. He, oh shit. He serious.

AJ: Oh my God. And I'm complicit because I've been making these decisions too,

Eric: and suddenly somebody, because they know it's part of their job. Ask the question. Yeah.

But I heard these materials are, are more expensive than other materials or Yeah. But I heard these materials are not as durable. Harder to maintain than, than traditional materials. Now look at, look at that framing. They're saying something that is not informed by any sort of real data. They're, they're making the toxic materials, the cancer, the ones that can't contain the cancer causing chemicals, [00:16:00] they're making those normal and everything is in orbit around that.

I hate vinyl. I think it's safe for me to say that. I think you'll find that sentiment along among a lot of sustainability designers. I, I hate every aspect of it. I hate every stage of its lifecycle. It's toxic, even its disposal. And we put it in because the perception is that it's cheap and durable, by the way.

It's not that cheap anymore and it's really not that durable, but we keep doing it because of that. It ends up being perceived as being cheap and durable even though it's not. But if that is be, if that is normal me then pushing on, Hey, let's not put cancer causing chemicals in the cancer center. Suddenly for it, it, it upends that paradigm.

AJ: Because that's the status quo. This is what we've always done and we've always done it this way, and now you want us to change. [00:17:00] So I'm imagining that when you're trying to look at just the toxicology of a project. You've got enough pathways and enough options to do it and do it well. The, the new design to, to design in a more sustainable way.

Are there certain things that you keep butting your head against, especially in a hospital environment, that you're like, I can't figure this out. How do we make this more sustainable? And it just, you can't figure it out.

Eric: Yeah, there's, there's, there's quite a few, you know, just off the top of my head, we really want to build a mass timber hospital,

but in the building code, a hospital is a very special occupancy group that has a lot of special requirements around egress.

which we need, in an office building, if there's a fire, you're awake, you're dressed. It's the middle of the day.

you're out of the building in 30 seconds. I don't know if you've ever been in like a, a fire alarm situation in an office building, but everybody, everybody's laughing with the fireman out front in 30 seconds

AJ: [00:18:00] Yes.

Eric: in a hospital, that is not happening in a hospital. The patients could be non-ambulatory. They could be in a coma, they could be hooked up to IVs. They need help getting out. Um, you're on a gurney, you're being pushed by somebody else.

You need two, three hours to clear out a hospital. Office buildings clear in 10 minutes, hospital is still going. You're not laughing with the firemen, you're worried at this point. So, and here comes, you know, quirky little green architects saying, Hey, let's build out a wood. It doesn't stop us from trying. Um, we've been doing parts of hospitals, like we do the cafeteria in, in mass timber or we'll do the, the lobby in mass timber. We're having, you know, we do a lot of medical office buildings 'cause those are just the office buildings.

we're trying to do parking garages outta mass timber, but the ho But there's, yeah, stuff like that. I have a wealth, an abundance of amazing, innovative, healthy materials that are just as expensive as vinyl. I'm not gonna say cheap, but I'm gonna say just as expensive and just as durable [00:19:00] as vinyl.

The trouble is still this perception that 30 seconds after I ask the question. Everybody agrees and everybody previously was laughing, and I'll even say to them in the meeting now, look what happened 30 seconds ago.

You were laughing at me at how absurd the question was and now suddenly it got real. Why? And I've been calling them on it. What would it take for me to overcome this? Fear

AJ: Yeah.

Eric: it takes is tell me all your, tell, tell me all your fears.

And it, and again, goes back to trust. What are you, what are you really afraid of here? And what we, what we've come up with is what if we give you big samples, three foot by three foot, four foot by four foot? We'll give you these big samples, put 'em into your existing facilities, run your machines over them, test them out, and give us feedback. What are your other fears? Well, I guess we'd want to talk to other hospitals that have done this material. Okay. So if I give you a list of hospitals, [00:20:00] do they have to be cancer centers like you, or can they just be any hospital? Sometimes they'll say no. It'd have to be exactly like us. Sometimes they want to visit them, so it has to be within, I don't know, three hour drive or something.

Okay. But tell me your fear and we'll, we'll work to, meet, you know, meet you where you are. Because the issue is in technology. That's the interesting part.

AJ: What do you mean by that? The issue's not technology.

Eric: We've known how to build truly regenerative. Remarkable buildings for 30 years, I can build you a net zero energy, zero carbon, zero waste, zero water building. I've been able to, I mean, I was doing it in the eighties. I mean, we were doing it with boat batteries, but, but, but still, but now it, the issue is not I can build you a net zero building.

Now that's, the technology's not the issue. The only thing standing in my way is fear.

AJ: Yes.

Eric: So suddenly that means that I don't need to be a technical expert. I need to be a psychological expert.

AJ: let's stay on that thread for just one more moment. [00:21:00] 'cause one of the things you just. Hit home to me. Like you're talking about a, a child walking into a hospital or a medical center and they're, they're riddled with fear. And I was last week in San Francisco traveling with my son who was having surgery and he's neurodiverse, he doesn't understand language, but.

Boy, did he sit still in every doctor conversation and anytime they said something like, oh, we're gonna put an IV in your arm. He's like, don't cut off my arm. Like, no one's cutting off your arm. We're putting an IV in your arm. He goes to the surgery, he comes out of amnesia or out of the anesthetic and the, he looks round, makes sure all of his body parts are there, and he shouts out.

I'm alive. It is terrifying if you're a child.

So looking at neuro architecture and some of the things in your design process, I mean, number one let's the chemicals of concern. Let's park that [00:22:00] for a second. 'cause we're gonna say that's table stakes. We're gonna say that's what we're gonna do and we're gonna make everybody do that. But what are the other things that you're going through in the design process that you're thinking about?

'cause you're treating the whole person. You're not just treating. Part of the person, you're treating the whole person. So what are you thinking about and what is your process in designing these medical centers in a more neuro architecture way?

Eric: it's safe to assume that every hospital we work with, regardless of where it is, whether it's in California, Wyoming, Wisconsin, or New York, or Florida or anywhere, it doesn't matter. They care about their patients. Uh, they wouldn't be in the, they wouldn't be in the profession otherwise.

The, the amazing thing about working with healthcare clients is the Hippocratic Oath exists, and so this do no harm

AJ: Exactly.

Eric: mentality and mindset is pervasive. One of the tricks of the trade is if I'm ever facing a meeting with just the facilities people, If I know that I [00:23:00] just have facilities people, I will say, let's invite some per the providers in as if I get doctors and nurses. And healthcare practitioners into the room. It changes the conversation because then with the fac, remember the facilities folks, their job is to build the facility as cheaply as possible, as quickly as possible, and to mitigate risk.

That is their KPI. And I respect that and acknowledge it, but I also know that it's gonna dominate the conversation if I get providers in the room. This changes the conversation greatly. The, the other, the other big thing is a lot of hospitals have really amazing goals around community health. They do not make their way into the RFP. They have amazing goals around sustainability that their C-Suite has invented. They do not often make their way into the RFP. There's this, there is this disconnect. Again, the issue is not technology. I can build you all these. We can build you these things. Now the issue is the fear that comes with it. The perception is that there is a green tax, and if I'm building two identical buildings, this is the one that we ask for.

And this one has your added sustainability features. [00:24:00] The one with the added stuff is always gonna cost more. And that is, believe it or not, that's true. If I have two identical buildings and I'm adding a bunch of stuff to this one, of course it's gonna cost more. But the trouble is that you've. Essentially painted us into a corner with a flawed process. What I'm advocating for is stepping back and saying, wait a minute. These buildings are not identical. the green building is gonna be centered around access to daylight and bio affiliate. It's gonna boost patient outcomes. By the way, we're not gonna just assume a four stair traditional system.

We're gonna a chilled beam system because that has acoustical benefits, affection control benefits, and a lower operation cost. We're gonna take those savings and funnel them into other things. So the other fundamental difference is I'm not here to sell anybody on sustainability with a capital S. I'm not interested in that.

I'm certainly not interested in selling them on lead or some rating system that they don't want. I'm interested in selling them on the outcomes and benefits that sustainability can provide Here, here's how it's working today. Our research shows [00:25:00] that the social determinants of health for your area show really poor air quality, and this is affecting asthma rates, especially in children. We think a green roof could help alleviate those concerns.

We also think that doing EV parking around the parking lot and then aligning to the public transit would also improve air quality around the building. That's the difference. I'm not selling them on a green roof. I'm selling them on the clean air and in and lower asthma rates that the green building would bring.

That is a very different value proposition. The outcome's the same, but it's changing them from a scarcity based mindset of fear and limited budgets and risk aversion into an abundance based mindset of the building can be part of the solution, and that's important.

AJ: And so do you do that for every building and every zip code or is it kind of like you're doing the same things generally? Like is it really mattered based on the zip code there?

Eric: No, I [00:26:00] The zip code? The zip code's interesting because It bothers me that the zip code is the largest determinant of your health.

AJ: Yeah.

Eric: More so than genetics, more so than lifestyle choices. So you're telling me that I could eat right and eat Brussels sprouts every day and go running 10 miles a day and my zip code is still gonna be the bigger determinant of how long I live.

That is maddening to me just as a human. and so I start with the zip code, but it's by no means just zip code related. The, the question, should we put cancer causing chemicals in the cancer center is also followed up with, Shouldn't every patient have access to views of nature in daylight?

AJ: Yeah.

Eric: Right? And the answer is like, well, yeah, but that's not what happens, is

AJ: Right. No.

Eric: So again, my job is to push these levers and to do them earlier and earlier in the process to, um, to affect hopefully positive change on the project. And yeah, we do it on every, on every project because it's easy.

So 50% of it is assumed. I know that our healthcare clients. Love [00:27:00] their patients. In fact, one of the questions I ask in the workshop, and it's my favorite question, I I'll, I'll ask them questions of how can we be more flexible in the future? How can we measure something instead of measuring efficiency is the best thing?

Is there a better measurement? Like I ask a lot of these psychological questions, but my favorite question of all time, and it's a simple slide and it just says, how do we love our patients more? Because they already love their patients. I mean, they, they're, it's amazing. Same thing with when we do schools, especially K through 12, how do you love the students more? crappy pay with crappy conditions and they love their students. So I'm just asking the question, how do we love our students more? How do we love our patients more? And I love the responses I get, but it's a very simple. Again, it's, I'm, I'm the facilitator. I'm not, I, it's not like I'm coming in with a pre, you know, predisposed set of like, this is this one size fits all solution at all.

what I always say to my team is I'm just looking for threads to pull on.

and I love doing the workshops in person because my, as you know, my, [00:28:00] my, my background is in comedy, right? So

AJ: is perfect. It's

Eric: Is perfect. Yeah. But I'm, I'm used to reading the room and so when I, when I, when I'm in a, when I'm in person in the workshop and they like, you know, squiz, um, crinkle their brow a little, I, I usually, again, that's a thread I'm gonna pull on and I'm like, it looked like you were gonna say something there, but you didn't, what were you gonna say? or, or they start to open their mouth and they, they self edit. And I go, well, you were gonna. You were gonna say something, what were you gonna say? And I'm pulling, pulling, pulling. Or I'm very much like a therapist. They'll, they'll say, well, of course we can't do that. And I'm like, say more about that right now.

AJ: Yeah.

Eric: one of the guys on my team, Elliot says it's like jazz. And I like that 'cause it's, 'cause I, I'm always saying to the rest of the team, just follow my lead. 'cause I don't know where I'm going. I dunno where we're going with this. Just follow my lead. And the process is fun because I want it to be fun. Who wants to sit in a four hour workshop? That's boring. That sucks. this is gonna sound like bragging, but it's, it's not, there's a point to what I'm saying, but every, every time I do one of these workshops, the [00:29:00] client, someone in the, from the client or multiple clients will come up and say that, you know, I do a lot of these types of workshops and that was the best one of these I've ever been to. What I say to them, and I say it genuinely is, yeah, that was the goal. yeah, that was the whole point. Like that was the goal is I wanted to make it the best one so I succeeded. Good. Okay. And it's not so much that I'm so brilliant 'cause I'm an idiot, it's, it's more so that everybody else is also by default doing workshops the same way because this is the process that they've been forced into by the RFP and by the. And so it's, I think it's fun because we're breaking the rules a little bit and we're, and we're going to places in the conversation that they don't normally go. And that's, so that's, it's fun because of them, not because of me. I'm just the thread polar.

AJ: [00:30:00] I love what you're talking about 'cause you're talking about process, and I've said this for years, that the design process needs to be thought of completely differently because a lot of times I think the process is broken. Right. And it's because you get stuck into these stereotypes. You get stuck into these, um, decisions that are just always made. 'cause that's how we've always done it. But take us to what the actual project now, 'cause I understand how that all applies in a workshop and how making decisions about a project is really important.

But now, now you're actually doing the project. talk to us about something that's like gone really well or gone really bad, or did you get the outcome that you were hoping for? Loaded question. I know.

Eric: to be in sustainability is, it's a, it is a challenging field. I'm not saying woe was me. I, but I am saying if you see a sustainability, if you have a friend working in sustainability, give them a cupcake and a hug. I think because,

AJ: Only if it's a vegan, gluten-free cupcake.

Eric: vegan,

gluten-free. Yeah. [00:31:00] Which is, you know, who wouldn't want that?

But I think when it works well is when, like with University of Chicago, we went into the interview before we even won the job with a bunch of what ifs. What if we were to activate the ground floor?

What if this was at a community outreach piece? What if, what if we didn't put cancer causing chemicals in the cancer center? We had a series of these What if pillars That became the narrative for it. We did not go in with it. Preconceived notion of design at all. It also really, really helped that, within Canon design is a, is a studio called Yazdani Studio, which is very special and in its own way.

In the one hand it's a very standalone project and they do world class architecture across the world. and they engage every client in what they call this prototype process. And it, and it is really crept into everything that we do. Even the projects that Yazdani Studio is not on. This prototyping process is an innovation gateway. And really what it is, is [00:32:00] we're just, we're gonna question everything along the way, and we're asking them permission to do so. It's not that. It's not that these clients had all this money or all this foresight or all this anything.

They're normal clients. They needed a cancer center, To their credit though, they were open to the process and I think that's the key. Again, it comes down to fear a lot of clients who go, Ooh, no. So we're asking 'em permission. Can we go through this prototyping? Can, can we use this process to uncover what you really need?

And from that, what we'll get at the end will be something that is probably not what any of us expected. when that goes well, it's great. But on the other hand, I also have my, my day-to-day is, um, I mean this is my life where I go, Hey, uh, free. Can you be in, um, Milwaukee

AJ: Tomorrow.

Eric: Yeah. It's like, yeah.

So, you know, fly to Milwaukee, which is fun. and we're, we're talking to the head of this healthcare system, and this is our typical client. This guy, he's been in the job for 20 plus [00:33:00] years. He's got the sweater vest and the tie. He's good at his job. He knows his systems. He's been holding this thing together with bubblegum and Popsicle sticks for 20 years.

He knows how to eke this out. Again, good at his job, knows his stuff. that's who I'm up against today. Like in a chess match.

AJ: Because you're gonna make his his life a lot harder.

Eric: That's what he thinks. Yeah.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Eric: I walk in and Mr. Sweater vest says, just so you know, I hate lead and I hate sustainability. That was his opening. That was, hello? That was, hi, my name's Eric, just so you know. I mean, he might as well have hit, just hit me with a bag of manure and I'm like, and I never know what to say in this situation. And I, I have a couple, like any comedian, I have a couple go-tos to deal with heckler, right? I, same thing with this. I hate, I hate lead. I hate sustainability. Your move. Right? And to which I, with him, I, you know, I, I, in a [00:34:00] millisecond I thought, okay, let me go with empathy. I said, uh, me too.

AJ: I thought you were gonna say that. I would've said that. I would've said Me too. Let me tell you

Eric: he was taken aback. I said, what, what drives you crazy about sustainability? Again, I'm pulling threads. And he said, well, cost more. I go, well, yeah. How have you been doing it? He was like, well, we keep adding on. I'm like, good. Here's that word added. You keep adding, you're not integrating.

He's like, what do you mean? And I said, forget about sustainability. Let's talk about you. Um, how many of these sweater vests do you have? No, let's, let's talk about you. What's currently driving you crazy right now? And he said, you wouldn't understand. I said, look, I'm not as dumb as I look. Gimme, gimme a, gimme a shot.

And he said, okay. Uh, we spend $96,000 a year plowing snow. It's Wisconsin.

AJ: Yeah.

Eric: I go, yeah, I seems reasonable. I think for Wisconsin. What's wrong with [00:35:00] that? He said it's $96,000. You know what I could do with that money in our budget? I could do so much more. But I was it on plowing snow and then it snows again and I gotta plow it again.

And over the years, 90, you know, on average about 96,000, that was our last year spend on snow snowplowing. And I go, that drives you crazy, huh? And he goes, yeah. I go, huh, well you know that big central plant from the 1980s. You want to pour another $3 million into to keep it afloat? What if we didn't do that? He said, what do you mean? I said, what if instead we took just half that amount and used it to put in a geothermal system and we get free hot water from the ground and we'll use that as our new central plant. And um, we also use it as the basis of heating and cooling. For the facility. But one of the weird byproducts of getting warm water outta the ground is that we could essentially put that in tubes in your parking lot and anytime there's snow in the forecast, you flip a switch and it prewarm the thing so the snow [00:36:00] doesn't stick

AJ: Like they do at the airports, right?

Eric: Yeah, on the heaviest snow days. You'd probably still have some to do, but for the most part it would save you a lot of that. And he said you could do that. I go, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Now, again, I'm not here to sell him on sustainability. He walked in with me saying that he hates sustainability to my face. So, so instead it was just like, what are, what are your problems and how could maybe we use sustainability to achieve certain outcomes that to benefit you.

So we went from my hate lead and sustainability to Mr. Sweater vest saying, what else do you got? I like that. What else do you got? That's kind of the point, right? Um, that's where it becomes interesting, and that's where success begins. We, I mean, we have this all the time. We, we designed a children's hospital.

We designed a lot of children's hospitals. We designed one, five years ago we started design on it. The head of facilities, who's a nice guy, said, I hate lead. We've never done lead. We're never gonna do [00:37:00] lead. And I think sustainability is a waste. to which. I said, me too. And you know, tried to do whatever we could in that workshop.

It went nowhere. The team went on to design the building and I didn't think about it again. 'cause we, uh, you know, do it all the time. I try, tried my best, couldn't break through to that guy, Four years later, I get a phone call from him. Hey, do you remember me? I go, yeah. Uh, at this point, the building's designed, it's in construction.

It's 85% complete

AJ: Oh gosh.

Eric: It's four years later,

AJ: Yeah.

Eric: he said, my board is asking me what we're doing in terms of sustainability for the new tower. What do I tell them? And I go, why don't you tell? Tell them how you told me to piss off four years ago. We didn't be to tell 'em that. He's like, no. He's like, no, seriously, what do I tell them? And I said, okay. Luckily the building's in California, uh, because of the energy code there, there's a lot of [00:38:00] things that we actually did that we snuck in under your nose without telling you, we'll make a list of those things, but in reality, there's probably other things that we could do that led to a conversation of first a list.

Here's the list of things that we're currently doing in the 85% complete tower. That's almost done. Here's the list of what we could be doing. In the tower. And then that led to, oh, by the way, let's go get lead certification for it. Suddenly the board was very interested in lead certification. Now that's very difficult on a building that's 85% complete, but we did it anyway. Um, it became their first lead certified project ever. And then the board said. Actually, can you help us with this? So we just completed their sustainability plan, their first ever sustainability plan. So we went in a four year period from, I hate lead, I hate sustainability, go away to, this is of critical, vital importance for us.

That is an interesting journey for any organization to go through in four years now. It, it also came from the top. Their CEO is amazing. It also came from their providers. They, [00:39:00] they, you know, in that time had done a lot of. Growth and work and things, but it's that'ss amazing. So even when they don't work out well, I think if we have good humor about it, it, you know, it, it still works out in the end.

You know, they're not, they're not necessarily gonna be in the same emotional head space that I'm in when it comes to sustainability and that's fine. So, um, I'm just happy that we got to be with them on that journey.

AJ: It sounds amazing. Well, Eric, you've, brought us through your process, which would, would people call it a. Human centered or human first approach to doing things or like how do you describe it when you have to talk to people about what you do and why it's unique?

Eric: Yeah, we, we actually have a spin on it. I can, we call it living center design. And that is not marketing speak for us. I mean, we, it's really part of our ethos, but it's, it is a, it is human centered what what's amazing about it is that I'm, I'm, essentially granted these design opportunities to have [00:40:00] these conversations with the clients.

And again, they're not easy.

but the fact that we're able to just have them is, is amazing. And then, and then change that income. But, you know, I'm, I'm feeling, I imagine like a lot of people, 2024 was the hottest year on record. 2025 is not done yet, but it will be one of the top three hottest years on record.

The last 10 years have been the hottest years on record. All the, all the data points are going in the wrong direction. One of the biggest acknowledgement that I've had over the last few years is that modern sustainability as a movement. Which, by the way, dates back my entire life, right? The first Earth Day was 1970, the year I was born.

The modern environmental movement has failed. That is a hard pill to swallow as a lifelong environmentalist, but if it has failed, that means that we need to step back and reassess of where are we going with this? And because it has failed. I also know that the old way of doing it of, gosh, Mr. Mr. Client, Mrs.

Client, is it okay if I don't put cancer causing chemicals in the cancer center? Is that all right? If I make the building better? Please, please, please. That doesn't work. It didn't work before. It's not gonna [00:41:00] suddenly magically work. Now because of the urgency of climate change, I have lost my marbles a little bit and I'm just like.

Hey, I got a wacky idea. We're gonna do this, and this is important to you. And this, by the way, aligns. This happened with Ohio Health. I asked the question about cancer causing chemicals and what they said, we were crying in the workshop. 'cause they said, this is who we are. This is our ethos, this is what we want.

We're gonna make this happen. And then of course, the facility guy said, you're right, regardless of cost. I'm like, no, it's not gonna cost more.

AJ: You wanted to kick him.

Eric: Yeah.

AJ: Well, Eric, thank you so much for reminding us of what's at stake and what's possible when we design with purpose.

[00:42:00]