Big Feelings?

The following transcription was made in part by an automated service, in some areas it may contain errors.

Faraz: [00:00:00] Welcome to Sense of Space, a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with.

I'm Faraz Shah.

Ella: And I'm Ella Hazard. How are you? Farha, how's your day

Faraz: I'm doing very well in a very generic way.

Ella: You're generically well.

Faraz: I'm generically well, we're, uh, at work in a bit of a weird spot. I'm about to go and do some traveling next

week, so I'm trying to cram in a bunch of heads down

work. Um, but at the same time. We have other people who are returning from travel, so there's a flurry of activity, and so it's this kind of weird, like,

two opposing sign waves, like inter intersecting right now.

So I'm, I'm there. That's where I'm at generically. Well,

Ella: generically, well, specifically It sounds So you, so you're heading, are you heading to, you're gonna Europe next week, right?

Faraz: That's right.

I'm going to Italy, I'm

going to Venice to do a little bit of [00:01:00] research I've never been to the Biennale and this is the year that it's focused on architecture. So I'm going over there to do a little bit of scouting work,

do some trend research, some analysis,

hopefully come back with a lot of photographs. A lot of interesting thoughts so that I've got a lot of inspiration going into the next year or so, or two years. We'll see.

Ella: That sounds really fun. I think we went, you went last year or two years ago with Carolyn.

Faraz: Almost three years

Ella: Really? Oh,

Faraz: three years ago we went to Milan

for CEL again. I had never been. and it was a really, really amazing trip to be able to bring back so much of what we saw as insights.

Ella: Mm-hmm.

Faraz: So I'm looking to, to do that again, but this will be a completely different experience.

Ella: Cool. Well, I'm excited. Maybe we could, uh, make one of our future episodes a summary of I want to hear all about your trip, and it would be awesome if you're, you're going with Carolyn again. Right.

Faraz: That's right.

Yep. So we're gonna meet up, she's coming from [00:02:00] Atlanta. I'm going from Chicago.

We're gonna meet in Venice, apparently, as As one does.

Ella: Well, that's really exciting. That's a big

Faraz: How are you doing?

Ella: I'm good. I had a, a, a weekend that felt mostly like a weekend. I only did a little bit of work. I did a bunch of schoolwork, but I am really into the subject matter. So it was good reading, fun stuff. And then I went yesterday to the Broad Museum in downtown LA that one of my neighbors and friends invited me to the Jeffrey Gibson, uh, exhibit, which is, he's a.

In native or indigenous artists who uses like these crazy bright colors. So it was like sculpture. There were a bunch of, like heavily beaded works and he did some, uh, audio visual stuff that was like, had really good music that like, I wanted to just like stay and dance to like, it was, it was a really, it was nice.

I hadn't been out to a museum. I, I just like, I realized I might be taking some of this for granted. I live so close to it and don't

Faraz: the the broad is actually really interesting. Like it, uh. It had some [00:03:00] really, really cool programming. Um, gosh, this must have been 20

19, 20 18 or 2019 whenever I was living in Southern California. They did, uh, oh my God. What was it like summer, the arts type

thing where they took over the broad and they had it set up where there was a music festival outside in the like, kind of green space.

And then, uh, the top floor was like. Underground, like nightclub. They had, uh, in one of their theaters, they turned it into like a, a punk show. And so they had all these areas that you could kind of like float in between.

Ella: I

Faraz: Um, it was, it was really, really cool experience.

I also remember somebody from the Towers Next door, I think it's like a residential complex with like some elderly folk that came down to yell at everyone.

Ella: That's sounds about right. Like get off my front lawn. Like

Faraz: Well, they were like, it's so

loud. Why are you guys doing this?

Ella: That's hilarious. Yeah. There is, there's like a couple of [00:04:00] towers. There's promenade tower, there's a couple of like, yeah. Elderly cony kind of experiences. Part of me kind of wants to, it would be fun to like live over there with all the, the old and like hang out, like crotchety old people.

It's my favorite, but yeah. But it made

Faraz: wanna be one of them. One day

Ella: I think I'm.

Faraz: I crotch the old people. I.

Ella: old man. I think I'm turning into a grumpy old man. Um, we're working on it. I just like fewer, fewer fucks or better prioritized fucks to give, right? I don't know.

Faraz: More

prioritized.

Ella: yeah. So, but this weekend being back in like a space of, I don't know, art and culture and being with a bunch of fun people made me and being in a space that's like designed to make you feel something like the Broad Museum is quite a journey in their permanent collection, but also in the, the one that we went to go see made me realize that this kind of ties in some ways to the topic that we.

Decided to talk about today, which is spaces for big feelings. I'm curious to hear [00:05:00] what your thoughts about this subject matter,

Faraz: it's

actually kind of timely. Um, over the spring, I actually had a chance to participate in, uh, this thing with, uh, A SID. So last year I was able to participate in a similar program, but it's, uh, this a SID collective where there's a, a match between industry partners and, uh, so like manufacturers. Designers in the in interior design field where you get together and you talk about topics that are relevant. Actually one of those things that we're talking about that'll be a future, uh, white paper. I think coming NeoCon next year in 2026

will actually be about optimism and joy. And so there's like this really kind of deep connection between what I just went through for a few months and this topic,

which is about those big feelings.

Right? And maybe those were specific ones, but. Yeah, I'm actually, I'm pretty psyched about this, but I think, yeah, go ahead and like [00:06:00] lead us off if you've got

some big feelings about

Ella: I do, I ha I do have big feelings about big feelings. Happy feelings about sad spaces maybe, or interesting feelings about sad spaces? a side project or research that I have been conducting for a number of years in like a, a space, like a, a design space that I've been super SES obsessed with is end of life, death care, grief spaces.

Um. And I attend almost every year. I'll take, I used to take PTO pay, pay my own way. There's this, this conference in LA called End, well, it's a one, a one day conference, but it, and it's attended by mostly. Like palliative care doctors. There's a lot of folks that are from the funeral industry that show up there.

There are people like death, doulas, um, folks from insurance companies, but not a lot of architects or designers. Um, but they put a, put together a pretty awesome lineup of speakers, and they do it a little bit kind of TED Talk style, [00:07:00] but it, it's also one of these spaces where you're. Everybody in the room is there because they've in some way dealt with or are working with like a pretty hard subject matter, uh, on a regular basis.

And so the stories that get told, like they put out tissues on every seat to start with, so you sit down and like there are no, no assigned seats. And so during the

Faraz: Right. They're, they're signaling what's about to

Ella: I mean, but it's true and I think they're also in some ways hinting. Like it's permissible to cry in these spaces. And I can't tell you that like how many times I've boo-hoo sobbed next to a complete stranger in the space of one day.

And it was totally okay. And it's a space where people show up wearing all kinds of sparkly clothes. It's a space that's actually filled with joy and that people that choose joy 'cause they're working with. People in some of their sort of worst moments of life. And so it's a really interesting group of people, but it's not a space where I see a ton of architects and I think I'd like to see more.

And so I've just been kind of attending this as a spectator and doing some of my own research, [00:08:00] um, into a company called Recompose. that composts or decomposes, people's bodies after they've passed in a very natural way.

They use wood chips in a blend of, they design this proprietary system that basically returns your body to soil, in about 30 days. And you can receive that soil back as a family to use it for plantings or something to spread that around the way you would ashes. Or it can just be donated if you don't wanna see it again.

But it's a, a third option between. You know, burial and cremation that is actually much more carbon neutral, and is actually helpful to the environment. And the reason I bring this up is because the woman who founded this Katrina. She was an architect and this was her thesis in school.

And so I've been kind of fangirling and obsessively following her business. But the other thing that, that she has done despite, in addition to the, the process that she has designed is she runs basically a funeral home that has these pods that you would go into, but she's changed that experience as well into [00:09:00]something that feels really, really beautiful.

and. Maybe more hopeful than it is sad or just like it's, it's reverent. But the space that she made and the process that she designed are a completely different approach to something that I, I think we've been pretty separated from in our western culture. So,

Faraz: How was that going in as. You know, from an architect's mindset coming into some of that, that conversation at that conference.

Ella: I mean, I, I think people were surprised when they're like, oh, that's interesting. Like, why are you here? And I was like, I don't really know. It's like, again, like

Faraz: So it was like an unexpected like presence on their end too. That's

Ella: Yeah, the I like, why would you be here? And I was like, I don't know why I'm here yet. I just want to be here. And talking to, like everybody had a different sort of perspective. One of the most interesting conversations, and I'll share this as like a, a hot take from somebody that was from the insurance field, which this was an unexpected comment.

Um, but she said to me that the spaces that we need the most help with, or the place where [00:10:00] architects can help is we really need to rethink our funeral experiences. Uh, funeral homes are.

They're antiquated. Like the, the, this experience hasn't been redesigned in a long time. Um, and there's a few examples of places that do this well, but she basically said, what if we could turn these into multipurpose spaces? What if it isn't all just about death and dying? Like, like it's a space for gathering and that could be used for more things.

It would be a better business for people who operate these spaces. And also it would likely help you to design something that doesn't feel so attached sort of to morbidity, you know?

Faraz: Yeah.

there's a cultural component to this too, where. There's a little bit more in, um, intention because I think like the idea that a funeral home hasn't been redesigned maybe also gives a little of credit that that experience has been designed at some point. And I think

culturally where we are now, um, as a society is a lot more

mixed.

And like, I think that's something that I'm [00:11:00] mindful of is like if you come from a different cultural background. How do you create a space that can allow someone to process that grief or on the flip side process, moments of celebration in a

way that feels relevant to their experience or to their intended experience?

Ella: Yeah. Yep. So, I, I don't, I don't have a, a a next step in this vein, but I also have a very good friend, Roberto Scheinberg, who has a, a cool firm in la and he, uh, and Laer architects just redesigned the. The next phase of mausoleum at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, which is like this beautifully transcendent, like it's one of the tallest buildings in the neighborhood.

So you get these beautiful views of the Hollywood Hills. You can see most of LA from there, but it's also just an architecturally gorgeous space. And I would say that that cemetery does such a great job of, they do like tons of programming there. They show movies during the summer. They always do an incredible day of the dead.

You get to build, they have like a temple competition, so you like walk around and turn it into like a whole, it's a [00:12:00] whole fair. Your face painted all these kinds. They, they program it really well. So I think it's one of the best examples that I know of a space that's had a, has an intended purpose, but they program it as a, a park as a space for gathering in, in my.

Little hopeful heart, like if I were buried there, I would want people to come visit and hang out. And so I think it's kind of cool that they're using it as a space to celebrate, but also investing in like rethinking the grief experience through architecture as well.

Faraz: do think that it's worth pointing out that death and grief is on one kind of foreign.

Of the spectrum, but big feelings aren't necessarily just about that. I think, we all have them at some point in time, right? Whether it's moments of celebration, moments of joy,

but also just sadness or, um, you know, [00:13:00] just intense feelings.

Um, and it could be in the workplace, it could be, you know, in other environments and public spaces, but I don't know that. Spaces have been designed intentionally. like if I just look around where I go on the day to day, I don't feel like there's a, um, an intentionality to how you one person can experience those feelings.

what is it about spaces that allow you to feel like safe to process those feelings or to process emotions?

Ella: That's a good question. do you have the space in your home or wherever, like when you're feeling overwhelmed, like either like overwhelmed in a good way or overwhelmed in like a, I need to take a break from the world for a few minutes.

Like, where do you go?

Faraz: My Volvo,

Ella: Okay.

Faraz: I have a no for, yeah, for me it's, uh, it's my car.

I have. But it's a, there's a symbolism [00:14:00] that's connected to it in that it can be anywhere.

Right? So I think the, the freedom, or maybe this is also just a personality trait of like the very literal, physical, like escape of like

conflict or escape of

whatever. Feeling that feeling. I can go, I

can drive somewhere.

Ella: And I'm sure there's people at work, there are people at home, like there's, that's like a place where you could actually be by yourself if you needed to be. That's like yours. Hmm. Okay. if I could do everything and anything from bed, I probably would.

I am such like a bed dweller. That is my safe space. I could run the world. Like sometimes I just bring all the screens and it's just like everything is happening, but like it feels. Safe and it's uncomfortable and terrible for your body to work that way. But some days, like when I ju I think it's also 'cause my bed is in, like I have dark curtains hanging kind of all around it.

So it's like, it's the one, I live in a big loft and so it's the one space that I can kind of make feel like a smaller room when I don't wanna,

Faraz: Right. It's

Ella: when I [00:15:00] can't. Yeah, it's cozy.

Faraz: that's worth pointing out that even the, like the car, right. It's, it's small. It's,

Ella: Yeah, it's cozy.

Faraz: cozy, right? What is it about designing spaces that have like those characteristics that make them feel safe or make them feel comfortable

Ella: It's like womb like,

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: I wonder. Well, I think we were like, we did a little bit of research for this, but somebody put a cool article about like the redesign of actual podcast studios. If we're gonna get meta and talk about the spaces that we podcast in.

Faraz: Right.

Ella: Which, although this is a virtual space we're podcasting out of. Right. You're, you are in Chicago. I am in la and we somehow managed to make this feel like our podcast cocoon. Do you think things would be different if we did it in person?

Faraz: Probably

Ella: What would you want our space to feel like?

Faraz: darker lighting. I mean, even, I mean, I know you can't tell right now, but like I've turned the lights down

quite a bit in, in my office.

Um, I have a lot of background noises. Like I, I sit right next to a door that opens and [00:16:00] closes. the visual isolation, the acoustic isolation, and I think like the calm lighting

to me is something that I'd want is like a kind of intimate space for intimate conversations.

Ella: I like that. I think that that rings true as I'm, as I watch other people's podcasts, the ones I tend to respond to are where they feel like they're all cozied up on a couch or like, it feels like they're taking good care of their guests as well. If they have, you know, it's like comfortable for them

Faraz: Yep.

Ella: facilitates the kind of conversation you'd want to have.

I think it also depends on like the duration. Like if the other podcast, I tend to. Watch, as well as listened to is called Diary of a CEO. Do you know this one?

Faraz: I don't.

Ella: I'm a little obsessed with that. I don't, I won't lie. The host is this British dude named Steven Bartlett. I think I'm obsessed because the content of what he's talking about is like stuff that I'm interested in, but they're like two hour long episodes, like two hours so long.

Faraz: That's intense.

Ella: Yeah. But it [00:17:00] looks like a very, like, then they're sitting at this like very clean, crisp table. It looks like deeply uncomfortable. It ma like it makes me upset, but I wonder if it's like. He's trying to set the scene for the kinds of conversations that need to be had that aren't warm and fuzzy always. You know?

Faraz: I wonder too if it's, some of it's like free of distraction.

Um, is a, a big jump from a podcast studio, but I think about, uh, healthcare situations. Um, I think that. There are delicate conversations that need to have been had in an environment like that, and at least personally, the things that I've seen and experienced have been, you're in the middle of a space.

It's not private. There's a lot of noises, things happening, right. It is still. An active environment with other patients and things like that.

And it becomes a very, um, [00:18:00] disjointed kind of experience where the, like the dichotomy of having all this activity and then this almost like one-on-one or one to two kind of person interaction

becomes, I don't know, it just, it, cheapens isn't the right word, but it doesn't feel like it should be that way.

Ella: sure. Or like a

Faraz: and I,

Ella: promoting, like healing and wellness and like the, the gravity of the news you may be receiving or trying to grapple with. Right. Information.

Faraz: Yeah.

And I mean, it's like a healing space like that or a, a place where, you know, there might be like some end of life care that's happening. it feels so contradictory to that experience that maybe, you know, you and I as, visitors in that environment would prefer and. That's such an, to me, that's an opportunity right there.

Ella: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think this in some ways hearkens back to our biophilia episode, like the [00:19:00] how do we go beyond putting a plant on things, but that, like, how do you make spaces that support that kind of interaction in a better way, or at least offer an array of different, uh, opportunities for different kinds of interaction.

Right.

Faraz: Yep.

I mean, I can definitely give you an anecdote too that was, uh, maybe not the happiest moment, but, um, we had a, a family member over the holidays who passed away and there was, uh, a moment where we went to a hospital and, you know, this was an, an end of life situation

and. All the furniture was uncomfortable.

The, uh, lighting was, I mean, it was a hospital, right? It was

very functional. no one could get comfortable and you're literally waiting hours and hours. I mean, I think we were there for 18 hours, just waiting.

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: And the space itself, It had such an impact on how everyone felt, how everyone felt, and how everyone [00:20:00] processed,

that it didn't actually add to a positive experience.

It added to a negative experience.

And that was such, such a, um, I won't call them out, but it was in Indiana

and it wasn't great. and if I were like their facilities team, like that is such an area that could be improved where, you know, being really intentional about. The type of furnishings, and I think it's an, an investment

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: by, you know, healthcare facilities to be able to create the space that allows people to, uh, process emotions, to hold grief, to, um, be there for their loved ones.

I think that that's something that's absolutely missing in some of these, uh, healthcare environments.

Ella: Yeah. I, I totally understand that and agree, but it, yeah. Uh, I can't even start in on our healthcare system. Like that's all, that's all written for another day, but, which that's, yeah. But I totally agree and I think that like, [00:21:00]Maybe the thing I'm hearing out of this that's not, not said is that part of the healing process for the person that that's experiencing that acute issue is in some ways having the people around them.

And if you're not making those people comfortable to help them support in a good way, then it doesn't, it detracts from the situation and it doesn't, it's not not helpful.

Faraz: And I think like that speaks of more broader, kind of issues in the built environment in that yes, there are these individual level experiences, but it's also a collective,

uh, experience or shared experience across people. And I think that looking at it in terms of, um. Collective grief

is one aspect, but there's also the opposite of, you know, collective joy.

And I dunno, I'd like to think through the idea of like balancing this where the kind of grief and emotional loss that can come with like really significant life changes is also [00:22:00] balanced out by, you know, really positive moments and like how do you facilitate. Joy and happiness and like done so in a, in an authentic way.

I.

I, had a, a note in here about manufactured joy. Uh,

Ella: Wait. Si. All right. Tell me more about what you like. What is, give me an example of manufactured joy.

Faraz: so in, in my little post-it note, uh, for the episode was, was Chuck E. Cheese.

Ella: Oh yeah.

Faraz: You know, I don't know if you've ever been to a Chuck E Cheese, but when you were a kid, like, you know, they had the, the animatronic band, the colors were so bright, the sounds were so intense and they had this like animatronic band and you know, the awful pizza and whatever, but like. They were so over the top to, it was like a laugh track for living, where it was like really just, okay, be happy here.

Ella: so the adult version is like a Dave and Buster's or something like that, right? Which is all like, like a, a temporary and ideally less expensive version of Disneyland. Like I can go here for a few hours. This is not an [00:23:00] ordeal there spread up amongst the cou country.

And this is a place where we can go be forcibly joyful

I'm gonna take one quick step back, which is to say, I think we're talking about this in the proper order, which is that I don't know that you can actually understand real, true, authentic joy until you've lost something or until you're willing to engage with like the feelings of sadness.

And in some ways, I, I would posit that. This is gonna get slightly existential. That, that, True joy comes from living through hard things and, and understanding or appreciating life differently because of something you've suffered. not that they always have to be connected in that way, but, so there's the manufactured aspect of joy, but are there other spaces?

What are other spaces that are maybe more [00:24:00] authentic expressions of that, that you in, in your

Faraz: You know, um, I consider there's a lot of parallels between residential. Design and commercial design in that the home is a place that a lot of people associate with opportunities for joy. You know, if your family unit was in a way that you had like family dinners, right? So like these dining experiences, you can draw that parallel back to the workplace and like these communal spaces for people to eat

or hospitality, right?

Like to me, like those are ways that I, I draw that connection of. Places where you can experience joy because of, you know, some shared, um, experience, like

the love of food, but also the conversation that comes with it. And a lot of times those can be very like, happy, joyful moments.

Ella: I like that. I would agree. That was the first thing that popped into my head was like a, A

Faraz: Food is love. [00:25:00]

Ella: food is love and like I have a pretty big seating area and living room. I have two different seating areas in here and every time I have people over, we all end up basically hanging out at the, I have this, like where I'm podcasting now is the bar in the kitchen.

I'm cooking and half the time we don't even go sit down at the table to eat. We just like stand around the island.

Faraz: exactly. The kitchen is also a big thing in my life too, because that's also like a right. I love to cook

and it's the same thing when, when we entertain, it's, um, everyone just hangs out in the small kitchen.

But that's where the fun is.

Ella: Yeah, I think that's true. All right. It's funny, I've thought about this a lot. The way that my, my unit is set up is you kind of walk in, there's like a little fireplace seating area, then there's the kitchen, the dining table, and the living room, and then like the bedroom's off in the other corner.

But I, I realized that because the kitchen is here, I can't get people to move past it. Like even if I put food and candles and

Faraz: so you just need half the size in your space.

Ella: yeah, I just need like the kitchen or, or the way I was thinking about how would you organize a house? How would I organize that [00:26:00] differently to like drop people through other spaces if ultimately where we're gonna hang out is in the kitchen.

Right. Like,

Faraz: True.

Ella: rather than putting it first and then they just don't go anywhere else, you know?

Faraz: The end of the journey.

Ella: Yeah.

Faraz: Right? Make them suffer through the rest of the design so they get to the joy at the end.

You can't have, yeah, you can't have your dessert without your porridge.

Ella: I think that's funny. I have a, like a, I was having a a, a burning man thought. I feel like this is gonna permeate our whole season. Sorry, not sorry.

But this was a, a place of intense feelings that was a temporary city in both, in a lot of ways. And I was kind of thinking about my emotional arc through the course of the eight days that I was there.

And at first I was very focused on like getting like the logistics of things, getting there, get everything set up. It took me a few days to get in 'cause of the weather, blah, blah, blah. Like get your shelter established and then. Finally when it stopped raining, I had a chance to like go out and be out.

And I remember the first night like going out for like a few hours and then feeling so overwhelmed by the whole thing that I like retreated back to my little spot because I like, [00:27:00] like chill. Yeah. It was so overwhelming. And then by day two or three, I kind of got into the swing of things. Then. I don't know if I've shared this with you before, but they, there are two burns that happen at Burning Man.

They burn the man on Saturday night, and then my favorite burn is what happens on Sunday night. Which is the temple burn. And so there's a space and there's a specific crew that designs a different designer every year. And the, the group that builds this every year, they stay out by the temple and they build this, like they don't party with everybody else.

Like it's a very reverent experience where they create the space, and people come and they hang posters, they bring mementos, they bring ashes, they do all kinds of things to use this as a tool to. I dunno, help move through grief and into joy. But it's like it's adjacent. It's the farthest thing out, but it's also adjacent to all this joy.

And so I remember feeling very grounded. I went, I got up early on Thursday morning and brought, I'd written some letters to people who were important to me and was prepared to set down some emotions. And so I had written those, [00:28:00] brought them, and I was like, I want this out of my tent, out of my energy, out of everything.

Now I'm ready to let this go. And had. I brought them there, left them like looked at all the everybody else's things. Had a big boohoo kind of in public, which is common. A lot of people are crying. In fact, one woman brought like a a blanket, set it down on the floor, laid down in like child's pose, and let out the loudest whale I've ever heard, like the grief from like the bottom of her soul that like, it ga like it gives me goosebumps just talking about it right now.

I was like, oh, I don't know what she's going through, but I feel for her. But as I was leaving, I was still kind of like, I don't know. I was in the process of setting things down, feeling her grief, feeling other people's grief. And I was kind of like heaving, like, so like sobbing a little bit loud as I was walking away and some random person just came and put their hand on my shoulder not for long, and then just walked away and it like, it felt so.

Loving and like I, I didn't even see his, his face just in passing. And then a few nights later on Sunday night, they burned the whole [00:29:00] temple down. And I thought I would feel so sad, but I have never felt lighter. Um, like it was really a cathartic experience of watching, of setting something down, making a choice too.

Live with my grief in a different way and the levity and the joy that comes from that. Like what it made me realize is that I grew up with a pretty religious family and went to church all the time, but that didn't feel like a really good, safe space for me. But this really did. There was non-denominational, there was no, there was no agenda in this space.

And I was like, we need more of this. Like where can I just go and cry, you know?

Faraz: so as I'm hearing you talk through this, I mean, I think that what I'm hearing is that there was. Maybe expectation isn't the best way to describe it, but an acceptance that this was a space to have those feelings,

and it sounds like people [00:30:00] were having that to varying levels, but that it was part of the process.

Ella: Yep.

Faraz: I'm really kind of curious how one person can maybe take that experience. Adapt it to how we treat spaces outside of Burning Man. Because I

think, you know, that's this like almost transcendental experience that can happen, but it's a, it's a destination, right? You have to go there and

everyone else has kind of gone there with this purpose.

But how do you create mini versions of that through

the workplace, through healing spaces, through

educational spaces, right? Like

there's gotta be ways to adapt that.

Ella: Yeah, like little

Faraz: Without burning, without setting things on fire,

right? Or, like, we'll collect these and burn them. Like, you know what, I like some way of just letting something go. I, I like the idea of like tiny temples everywhere to, to people's emotion. But also I think that that. The part that I didn't say [00:31:00] is that like this is one small space.

Ella: Well, it's not small. This is one space in a sea of like 80,000 people where it's like joy and creativity and art. But like there was still, still this was held importance and it's something I think almost everybody that goes to Burning Man does at one point in time or another is to go visit the temple and then you return back to however you want to.

The celebration part of things, which is I think sort of the biggest sort of the thing that people think about most.

Faraz: Let me ask you this.

Do you think that there's a stigma to emotions in like architecture and design?

Ella: Yes.

Faraz: You're shaking your

Ella: Yeah. In, in, in, in public and the workplace in general, like everywhere. Yeah. Of course there is, you know this

Faraz: But like,

socially, right? Like if there's a stigma associated with this,

right. How do you, how do you affect that change in, in the built environment? I think that's probably one of the most, like significant, like forks in the road, [00:32:00] is

it's, uh. Without leading by example, right? Like how do you create a space that allows someone to, um, process, to experience joy, to have grief?

And it's not a,

uh, judgment. They feel safe to do it.

Ella: Yeah. So it's like creating a space to do that. Like, I don't know if there were, back in the day when we were trying to care for our employees, there were like nap pods and like lactation

Faraz: Like wellness rooms Yeah. Like,

we have one at, at our, uh, at the Turf Design Experience Center. We have a wellness room.

Ella: it's not like a 'cause Other than that, the only place you really have to go cry is like the bathroom. And that's not even really private. Right.

Faraz: right. Or isn't, um, designed in a way that allows someone to do that in a,

Ella: Yeah. A comfortable, safe. Yeah,

that's fair. I like this idea. I don't like, there's, there is something to this, but I also like this as like a, a public, I dunno if it's art installation or if it's a [00:33:00] public service, but a tiny temple or a place for, to release things so that you can be in your feelings of contentment and joy and, you know what I mean?

Like to let it go.

Faraz: Yeah, and I think maybe without provocation though too, where, you know, it can just be neutral. I went to Los Angeles County Museum of Art when I was living in, in Southern California for a little bit.

There was an exhibit that was there. Um, it was a photographer and it was showing, you know, their life's work. And then they had like this one itty bitty box. That you would go into and it was just a television, and I think I, we talked about this last season, but there's a television that was playing something and then a box of tissues next to a chair, and it's only meant for one person. And you're like, well, fuck,

Ella: Alright, here we go. You're like, I needed to cry anyway, so might as well.

Faraz: yeah, but I feel like maybe that's unnecessary that we don't need to go to that level. But it was a one person kind of solo space [00:34:00] designed. To create and evoke an emotion and just, yeah, let loose,

Ella: I like, I, I'm appreciative

Faraz: like the, um, like a scream room, but for a cry room,

Ella: That was actually on my list of like intense spaces of things I haven't tried yet, but want to is have you ever been to like a rage room where you get to go bash stuff? I would. You wanna do that?

Faraz: I don't know. I don't feel like that's me.

Ella: I like, I don't feel like I'm carrying a lot of rage right now, but

Faraz: I appreciated like, you know, office space and like, you know, some PC load letter

and all that stuff, but like, you know,

Ella: Hey, Rob,

Faraz: hi Rob.

Rob: I, I just think it would be important to note that it's been scientifically proven that rage rooms increase rage.

Ella: what?

Rob: Yes, because it's not, uh, organized through like a clinical professional.

Whereas like, you know, a, a professional psychiatrist or something could guide rage

in a [00:35:00] way that might be meditative or constructive. A rage room. You're like, I'm angry. I'm going to throw a glass against the wall.

Guess what? Still angry.

Ella: it. I guess. Yeah. Not having a lot of rage like

Rob: I've been to one Ella, I've been to

one. and

it was fun.

Ella: it was, yeah. Yeah. It seems

Faraz: So entertaining, but maybe not processing.

Ella: Yeah. That's helpful. I did not know

Faraz: So it just allows you to take out your latent aggression,

Ella: late in aggression. Yeah, I don't feel

Rob: Look great for, great for a group of coworkers.

We'll put it

Faraz: Instagram.

Ella: Yeah, that's true. I feel like I, yeah, I would probably do this more for entertainment value.

Like, I'm not, I'm not a the breaker of things or like a, a thrower of things. But I do think that it would feel very wrong and kind of a fun way to just take something that's like perfectly functional.

This is so not in my nature. Just like destroy it for no. Earthly reason. You know, like that feels so wrong that it would be kind of fun a little bit,

Faraz: Mm.

One who has the [00:36:00] power to destroy things has the true power.

Ella: Totally. So there's something else you said that kind of like resonated a little bit, which is we're talking about extreme feelings, but I think we can't talk about that without, you said, you talked about neutral and I think that it's important to say that I think that in this country we're heavily.

Focused on extremes or like big feelings or like happiness. It's like written into our what? The bill of Rights. Right.

Faraz: Mm-hmm.

Ella: But like, I don't think that, I'm not sure happiness is a right, nor is it something that you should really feel all the time. Like I, I wanna hold space for neutral, which is, I think contentment.

Like my needs are met, I have what I need. Like nothing horrible is happening. Nothing amazing is happening, but I'm okay. And like, why isn't that the goal, you know?

Faraz: Yeah. Well, I think that maybe one of the opportunities for designing spaces is that. It's an acknowledgement that not everyone is at baseline contentment,

right? You think about like your laszlo's hierarchy of [00:37:00] needs, right?

You have no idea who's coming into that space where they're at.

So it's almost impossible to, you know, make the assumption that whatever you're putting in as a, you know, design feature or an accommodation is going to bring someone up from, you know, feeling low into baseline or

baseline in a joy.

You have no idea.

Ella: Yeah, that's exactly right. But I also think from like a societal standpoint, we should shift, like I feel like happiness is too much of a region that's actually creating more discontent than it. You know what I mean? Like, we're like striving for something that I don't know that we should be or that can't exist at.

You know? You can't live life at an 11 all the time, right?

Faraz: Why not?

Ella: I mean, you can drink brown red.

Faraz: I don't know that I agree with that.

Ella: I, uh, well, I can't, I'll speak for myself. I can't, I can't do an 11 all the time. That's even good. Too much of a good thing is too much and overwhelming, and I need to crawl into bed.

Faraz: Life is life [00:38:00] through moderation.

Ella: Well, yeah, or just being, I guess, content with the simple things like, I don't know, maybe this is just like A-A-D-H-D thought of like letting, letting the A DHD drive this year, which is like do a bunch of random things.

You don't get there very fast, but I think where you get to by half finished things or like little explorations or starting a million projects all at the same time is. Like a weird sense of peace and contentment from just kind of being or doing. It was like very meditative once I stopped trying to judge myself for not being air quotes productive, you know?

Faraz: I mean, this is the kind of theme that runs through everything that I feel like we talk about is that. It just depends, right? Like that should have been the title of our podcast. But yeah,

it depends. But like there's so much nuance to this that it's gonna be different for every type of person, but I go back to this every single time, right?

The fact that if you can get an architect or designer to just even ask this question, they don't have to have the answer,

just ask the [00:39:00] question. Like, you've already gone so far above and beyond what typically occurs in the design process, in the design phase, where. Just thinking about this, like what does it mean for one person or a group of people and just do something.

It could be a bunch of little things or it could be one big thing, whatever. Do something.

Ella: I think that's true, and I really like your point about the fact that we don't know how and where people are showing up from in their life, in their day and their whatever, and that I, you know, if I'm taking accountability, I'm speaking from a position of like incredible privilege that like I, I have never had before.

And so grateful, grateful for that. But you're right, like I think we all walk around with, with big feelings in one direction or another. And I, I, I am now intrigued by spaces to, I don't know, like a, a, like a pressure release valve, if you will, to exercise some of those feelings. Um, so

Faraz: That may or may not be a [00:40:00] rage room.

Ella: Well, it sounds like it's not, I don't know. I like where this conversation went today. I feel, I feel like I have something new that I wanna think about how to design or implement in the world or, or maybe research other people already doing things like this. Like what it made me think about is like, you ever see like the tiny little like neighborhood libraries that it's just like a little, like

it's like a birdhouse on like a post or something like that, where like people like take a book, leave a book.

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: that

kind of thing, like Right. But for, but for feelings.

Faraz: Take a feeling. Leave

Ella: Leave a feeling. Yeah. There's something in here. I don't know what it is yet, but I like

Faraz: That's your tiny temple.

Ella: Yeah. Tiny Temple.

Faraz: I think we should figure out what the name of this podcast is gonna

Ella: Hmm. I like that.

Faraz: Take a feeling, leave a, feeling.

Ella: Big feelings.

question mark.

Faraz: Let's see what comes out. All right. Thanks everyone for listening to Sense of Space. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte with the help from Associate producer Patricia Gonzalez.

Ella: Sense of Space [00:41:00] is a Turf podcast and is brought to you by the Surround network. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surround podcast.com.

Faraz: Make sure to leave us a great review wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and make sure to hand this to your local town crier so that everyone knows. We'll see you next time on Sense of Space.

Ella: Bye.