Better Not More?

The following transcription was made in part by an automated service, in some areas it may contain errors. 

Ella: [00:00:00] Welcome to Sense of Space, a podcast about the built environment and all the stuff we interact with. I'm Ella Hazzard.

Faraz: and I'm Faraz Shah, and today we have a special guest, our

third timer, longtime collaborator. We're still waiting for the jacket to show up. Carolyn Noble.

Carolyn: Hi. It's so great to be here.

Faraz: Yes. And today we're gonna talk about experimental architecture,

Ella: Carolyn. It's been since maybe June, since I last saw you,

Carolyn: Isn't it amazing though? I mean, here we are. We're talking about sense of space. Think about time and space. That feels like a year ago and like a week ago, all at one time.

Ella: Totally. Yeah. It was great. Great to hang out in person. And then we also had you on last, season of sense of space. We spent some time I think talking about biophilia together, right?

Carolyn: sure did

Faraz: I still keep referring to NeoCon as like what happened last year, even though it was only a few months ago.

Ella: I feel like

it's your New Year's Eve.

Carolyn: It really is. [00:01:00] It's like the grand finale of the industry,

Faraz: What have you been up to since we last saw you in June?

Carolyn: I mean, there's a lot that's going on. We're.

We've got several projects happening with turf. Um,

Faraz: All top secret.

Carolyn: have all top secret busy, busy, busy with that work.

I've had a little bit of travel which is exciting. It's always great to get a new

perspective on things.

Faraz: you and I just got back from Venice, Italy.

Ella: can you set the scene for us where you were, why you were there? What's going on?

Faraz: Beautiful sunsets. Nice fall weather.

Carolyn: Italian

food and wine.

Faraz: I have never been to Venice before.

Carolyn: Nor have.

Faraz: absolutely stunning. We stayed off the like, kind of main drag, so it wasn't as touristy, which was really just pleasant and quiet and calm. And then I feel like we got a chance to kind of immerse ourselves into just some really heady, like capital A architecture that was [00:02:00] so inspiring.

Ella: well, first at the scene, where is the BNLA held? like, let me visualize with you.

Carolyn: Far and I have talked a little bit about this. So how many trade shows have you been to or it's in Yay. Conference center in anywhere USA and you haven't seen the sun all day. You're glad you have a watch on. 'cause otherwise you wouldn't know the time. Um, and uh, you know, oftentimes the experience doesn't fit the city.

There's no culture. There's the dining options are very standard. This

Faraz: We're looking at you. Las Vegas Convention

Carolyn: we are looking at you Las Vegas Convention Center and you're sad. chicken that I have to put mustard on.

Faraz: It's not hot dog in water. It's actually like hamburger patties and chicken patties

and water.

Ella: Sad chicken.

Carolyn: Could have just been a hot dog, I guess.

Ella: might have been better.

Faraz: Yeah. Would've been better.

Ella: So you didn't have hot dogs in Venice, is what you're

Faraz: No. No

Carolyn: hot dogs in Venice. No. And uh, it, it's unbelievable though because [00:03:00] the, I would say the venue is the city, so the BN A is throughout the city. Um, there are some areas that are, um, for different countries that are exhibiting there that are specific to the BNLA, but otherwise. It literally is in and around the city.

You might go into a furniture showroom that's, and find an exhibit as, as we did. it was just very beautiful because the city is part of the show.

Faraz: Yeah, day one. I had to find it, which is not, you know, as easy as I would've hoped. But again, I had never been there before, so I actually got a little lost and it was kind of, it was cute to walk around and see what else is out there, but when you find it, it was kind of unassuming.

Carolyn: For us was really good with the maps, y'all,

let's just say I ended up going the exact wrong way in the complete wrong direction and it [00:04:00] took me about two hours to figure that out. So.

It was really good once I connected with Raz and he took over the navigation.

You are fantastic

Ella: It's like a a scavenger hunt.

Carolyn: it is. And it's, it's like discovering a surprise around every corner. Truly. And then, I mean, the architecture itself, you know, here we're talking about experiential architecture, I mean experiential architecture in Venice 1000 years ago to design this idea of a floating city, um, is mesmerizing.

So, you know, here we are in this. old City, but yet when you think about what was done and what is still there and what continues to evolve, it's really inspiring.

Faraz: Yeah, it was one thing too, like the antiquity of Venice was really great contrast to what you saw in the Biennale where. Like the two different venues that you have, that you have Arsen la and then you've got the Giardini, and [00:05:00] then there's all these other, um, kind of satellite events as well. But like we focus on just those two before the show closed.

It's so future forward, future thinking, every entity, uh, country that's exhibiting their, you know, whether it's in their own pavilion or in like the larger arsenal like pavilion. They all kind of have like a really unique interpretation of the theme. So this year was like, uh, around like a collective intelligence.

And seeing the cultural context, helped kind of set the stage where you can see what everyone's take was on it. And try and see the differences of between how each culture or how each group interpreted this, uh, finding out like what's important to them, what's important to their future.

It was unlike anything I had experienced before.

Ella: can you give some examples of how two different countries interpret, interpret it differently, and like what, what were the kind of cues to you or what you picked up on?

Faraz: [00:06:00] before you even get into the main kind of arsenal, a pavilion,

I stumbled into Icelands.

it was a very, very simple, space, kind of white box. But they had this array of, like LCD TVs displays, and they're basically talking about a imagined world for Iceland where their landscape has changed because in the this future that they've imagined they're using lava forming.

As a way to create the architecture for people to live. And so they've created this whole like scenario and world building. There's a short film that talks about it where for their context, these corporations have, uh, like harness this energy. And they've created these domes because it's a response to like drought.

And so they've created like an organic environment inside and they, I think, used like a video game engine to visualize this, but it was really, really well done. And then in an adjacent room, they just have kind of these [00:07:00]examples of like the obsidian glass that's been created by lava and like a little sculpture.

hyper kind of regional focus on like that material and their environment and their kind of imagine perspective. and that was at, over near the Arsen.

Ella: Mm-hmm.

Faraz: go over to the Giardini and there was a Canadian pavilion, and I think it was, uh, Pico plankton was the theme, or

was, a smaller pavilion, but it was a almost like a living workshop where, or like a little lab.

And they had created a 3D printed scaffolding. They were growing this, uh, plankton or bacteria onto the scaffolding, and as it was exposed to the air, it would actually harden because it was consuming the carbon dioxide in the

atmosphere. And then that would, they would use that to create this structure, and then they would apply it to this larger piece.

I don't know any other word to say other than inspiring, like it [00:08:00] truly was.

Ella: That's awesome.

Carolyn: while there are all these different places and geographies and cultures and um, philosophies on design, there were a few themes that were pretty consistent and.

I was inspired because I felt like everyone was there to figure out these lofty problems. Um, you know, things like water conservation and how we can conserve water. We saw this extremely artful exhibit in Uruguay, um, uh, pavilion where it was just droplets of water that were slowly. Going into the buckets, so you had the sound experience, it was lit, very dimly. And there was also the narrative on, you know, Uruguay, here it is a, a country that has plentiful access to the ocean and it doesn't have plentiful access to water. So asking these really [00:09:00] big questions about things like water conservation and climate change, and how we can work together to solve them. I believe it was, In Egypt, and one of the quotes essentially was, I don't have it right in front of me, so I'm gonna

paraphrase.

we cannot predict the future, right? The future can't be predicted, but we can be part of the success of the future. So my takeaway was, wow, there's some really lofty things going on.

I was really inspired knowing that we have some incredible thinkers, scientists, designers, architects, problem solvers, artists that are working on solutions and, and again, all throughout the world, it was, it was extremely impactful.

Faraz: this is so different than the experiences that I think I've had as an, you know, industrial design background or like exposure to the interior designers that I've worked with. These like conceptual, cerebral [00:10:00] problems that are being addressed with architecture as the tool or the medium, like that was so distinct.

Like everything was so big. Right? Like, not like the built thing, but like the, the

Ella: The scale of the problem and the solution. Hmm. Yeah. I think that's bigger even than architecture in some ways. Like architects play a part in that. But it's like an urban, these are, it requires more than just architects, right? This requires, I guess, the collective intelligence of many minds and many different disciplines to like hack away at these wicked problems, right?

What do they call them? VUCA problems like volatile, uncertain, ambiguous, I dunno, Fuca, uh, complex and ambiguous. I

Faraz: is like the, the architectural, like fubar.

Ella: It's like a strategy term. I think that that talks about like problems that are at such a, like a high, like they're, they're just so hard to untangle [00:11:00] I think highlighting the, sort of the themes and the content is helpful for you guys from sort of a turf lens specifically, were there things that you.

Saw experience felt like. What were the conversations you two were having together while you were there?

Faraz: I mean, part of it is you just digest, like I, it's hard to describe how expansive this is. I mean, you know, we had folks from our PR firm. Who have been, you know, over multiple trips, like they've gone to this and they're like, you know, it's large. Every country has its own like, uh, pavilion, but it doesn't really describe the scale and the variety of thought that happens here.

And I think for us, like it was really trying to understand like when we went. We're looking through the lens of, okay, well how does this apply to turf? Like, what are we gonna do from a product standpoint? Are there some other strategy decisions that [00:12:00] come out of this? And when you go to a commercial show, like let's say for example, CEL, right?

Another Italian show happens in Milan, much more of a direct application where you can see maybe three to five years out.

Ella: Mm-hmm.

Faraz: Material usage, color usage, like maybe even different product categories, but it's all commercially focused and you can see, okay, I can anticipate how this comes to us or how this comes to the US market in the near future.

This is so far out, it's like five to seven years ahead and thinking before, I think you see practical commercial applications out of it. So, you know, in my mind I'm thinking about the cultural context. Of any one of these, these groups, and it's like, well, how can you take the inspiration elements from these cultures and apply that thinking or apply those influences into, is it new products?

Is [00:13:00] it how we think about materials? so they're a little bit headier, maybe not as, specific to something like, oh, I can implement that tomorrow, but. we're working on the, like our strategy deck coming out of this and I'm,

I've got a ton of ideas of how we want to do this.

Mm-hmm.

Ella: sometimes when you're zooming back and forth between present and like. X distance into the future, you can kind of get whiplash as you're kind of zooming back and forth. can you either of you speak to sort of your emotional state after an experience like this?

Like,

Faraz: the exhaustion.

Ella: yeah, yeah. No. Aside from the jet lag, you're like the mental and emotional experience of trying to have to hold, hold the, the current and the future at the same time.

Faraz: Awe.

When in one word. For me, I think that's it. It's awe. I don't know.

Carolyn: Yeah. All is a good one. I, I think for me, it might be hopeful. I mean, let's. What is it, vuca, there's a lot of VUCA right now, and, we have these [00:14:00] amazing creative, intelligent people that are future thinking and working on real solutions.

and then at the same time, there'd be exhibits that we would see where I, I would, you know, be kind of there. Observing and interacting and, and, and then I would get that magnetic like boom. Like, oh my gosh, I just got the concept, what they're talking about. I mean, for me, like that was just energizing,

extremely energizing.

Faraz: Like there would be times, so I think like our travel was staggered a little bit by like a day. So like I basically speed walked through part of the like pavilion and just kind of taking it in from like a visual standpoint. Like, okay, what is visually interesting? What am I seeing?

And then I did it again when Carolyn came in. Just slowing down to read is so important. The context of [00:15:00] what they are showing really, really, really helps to understand, like it isn't something that you can take at face value, whether that's good or bad, I don't know. I'm not, I won't judge, but it's like, I will say reading the, the prompt or reading their description of what they were trying to achieve.

Really helped, really, really helped.

Ella: Did it otherwise feel kind of esoteric

Faraz: I mean, it would be like taking a look at an environment like, okay, wow, that's really interesting, or that's really compelling, like how they, they built this or kind of created this, or maybe it was about craftsmanship. And then when you read the descriptions, like, oh shit, that's actually like, that's really deep.

Carolyn: in the Nordic Pavilion, so this is Finland, Norway, and Sweden. You walk in and it's largely kind of open and

Faraz: it's

Carolyn: this. Yeah, very stark. And there was this like 1980s car

Faraz: 1990s, it was a Mitsubishi 3000 gt.[00:16:00]

Carolyn: I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not a

car person. Clearly not a car person. I thought it was like a DeLorean, so that, that gives you an idea.

Ella: those are cool too.

Carolyn: I mean, I would love to have one. But you see this, this car, and it's completely covered in graffiti. It's stripped down to, I mean, literally stripped out all of its parts. and you're just kind of looking at it like, huh, okay. and I have to read this for you. It's like destroy the defaults of design. Redesign the remains, disrupt the dominance of the norm. So

Ella: That just gave me

Carolyn: like yeah. So that's one of those. Yeah. And that was one of those like, oh, like moments for me where I was just like blown away. And then, you know, it's even funny, I'm looking at our, our images right now while I'm talking about it. It's interesting too, how you can even see it in my images, which I just kind of threw in there in order.

You can go back and see how like the last [00:17:00] image is like really focused in on the car. Like, I got it. Like

Ella: Like, as you're

Carolyn: see it. Yeah, and it's

just, yeah, and it just, it just really inspired me like to like, wow, we can rethink things so differently.

Faraz: I don't know, and maybe this is my own naivete, but some of the countries, I think my own bias, it's like I wouldn't have expected that,

Ella: Hmm.

Faraz: um, to be their angle and their perspective, but thoroughly impressed,

Ella: That's

awesome. I think there's also something I wanna highlight that you said, or the thing that you did that's allowing us to have this part of the conversation for us is about pace. Um, and the fact that you did the same thing twice at two different paces is something that we can actually all do.

Anywhere we go, right? Like if you go to a new city, like I used to go to a new city and back when I ran and had knees, that allowed me to, I would go running and I would, I would do like the same kind of like speed walk scan that I, that you did and be like, okay, I wanna come back here later or come back here.

But also taking that same pass at a walking pace, like you discover so [00:18:00] much more richness or if you're, you know, driving through, like you see things differently depending on the pace that you're going. And I think. you have to build in time to slow down

and to like really absorb things deeply.

Faraz: and I think if you don't do that, you leave more on the table.

I feel like it's such a rewarding experience and I feel very, very fortunate that we were able to go,

Carolyn: Yeah, I do too. And if I may, I'd love to make a note as well. On the attendees. There is a population that we do not see, or at least I typically do not see at shows. And that's

kids.

Faraz: Oh my

god. Lots of kids. No

Carolyn: Kids from elementary

school, Like my son who's in third grade. Yeah. All the way through high school, everywhere.

Kids.

Ella: That's wonderful.

Faraz: we were finishing up in the main pavilion and you just see like 30, 40 kids, you know, they're just walking around a little train.

Carolyn: this might not be something that we see, you know, two years from now. It could be seven years from now. And all I could think when I connected that is, [00:19:00] that's who's gonna implement it.

And it's so, yeah. And it's so exciting to me, you know, as somebody who. I love, I have such a passion for students in our industry and it's something that we're always saying is like, design is such a great career path. And just to see in other countries how it's integrated at the earliest phases of your academics.

And I just thought that was if, if we're thinking about like experimental architecture, right? Imagine if some of those kids, right? Because I think from my understanding. It's part of the curriculum

Faraz: for that region. Like that you

have to go. Yeah. if you were that age and you have exposure and maybe even if like 10% of that you can internalize and digest and if 10% of those kids are interested in like something related to this field. How far ahead they are at conceptualizing and thinking through these challenging, uh, VUCA problems and thinking about [00:20:00] that just in general, right?

Like,

oh, this blows my mind.

Ella: it's like an aspect of agency as well, right? Like that we, we trust you, like we're not gonna shield the world from you. We're gonna show you like, yeah, we, we've fucked it up a

Faraz: Yeah.

Ella: but we gotta think about it. Oopsie, actually, I'm. I'm. gonna blame that.

I'm gonna blame that on our parents. But

whatever

Faraz: Right. Yeah.

Ella: the boomers did, the boomers did it. No, but to invite them into the problem, and also in some ways take accountability for the fact that like, yeah, we probably didn't help make this any better. We're the first kind of generation to start realizing that we need to do something about that.

Or maybe like, you know, a few generations before us, but. But to invite them into like, how do we work on solving this together? And that we trust you, we empower you. Sorry, not just go figure it out, but like, how do we work on it together,

you know? think that's one of the things that I would love to encourage people to like to take away, whether they get a chance to go to this or something else, but like these heady problems. Hopefully by getting [00:21:00] exposure to them, you're maybe equipping yourself with the context or the tools

Faraz: to address them. for future architects, future designers, having these tools at a young age helps, I think shift your perspective.

I look at all of the, the things that we saw, I feel like there's this like evolution of like these experiential moments that they're creating. That goes from maybe like a superficial like splash or like attention getting, like, uh, gimmicks to tools and techniques that make you feel something as you're going through them.

the number of like just large displays, right? Like projections or like big S screens. Um, that's one thing, but like how they're using it to not just like bombard you with visuals, but. Allow you to kind of step outside of the rest of the environment and into what they're trying to communicate

is, it's so elevated and like the [00:22:00] sound, like it's not, um, it's not just music.

Everything that we saw, I feel like almost without fail, almost every environment, let's say 80% had an acoustic sonic experience that was part of what you're supposed to do. Um, and that to me just elevated the whole experience in a way that you could see it, you could hear it, you could feel it, and you could get something out of it to take away.

And, I don't know, I think that that's really promising. Thinking about like those kids being able to take that learning and interpret it, misinterpret it, adapt it to what their future is.

Ella: I think that sounds really beautiful and like quite meaningful actually, if I'm hearing you both Right. The other piece I wanna highlight that you said is, is about that uncertainty, which is like whether you're a designer or not. I think the skills that we're, we're, [00:23:00] we've lost is the ability in some ways to deal with uncertainty.

Like, we want to know what that, if I do X, Y, and Z, I'm gonna get this score on a test. Or I wanna know like there's a certain element of control and like, um. Exp expect expectation of consistency that I think that we have, particularly in the West that disa allows us to,

to, to, to, yeah. But it dis allows us to really manage things that we're not, to learn new things and to have these kind of experiences in like nascent spaces and.

That terrifies me, honestly. So things like this and the fact that like if we empower young humans of all kinds

to

Faraz: and old

humans like us. Yeah.

Ella: Yeah.

I mean, yes. Like that, that's actually a really good point. There's the, like, you can't, there's no age that you are too old to throw away the script and start all over.

Right. Don't be

Faraz: Yeah, I can,

Ella: it all away.

Faraz: I can confidently say there are things through this as not a young person that I will be taking [00:24:00] away from this and, and learning and internalizing and applying it to what we do in the future. And it's because been fortunate to have this opportunity that I'll, I'll remember that

and I'll take it with me. Well. So it seems like it worked and you're doing an excellent job, great

Ella: sales pitch.

Faraz: it. Yeah. Everybody, let's go

to Venice. so you guys were left with feelings of awe and hope. Are there any sort of. Like lasting thoughts or takeaway? Like can you share some of what those, like one takeaway that you feel like you're gonna implement in your either

Ella: personal or professional life?

Faraz: so our. Other partner who's helping us design the, you know, turf design experience centers like showroom component next year. She's actually there now. We were, you know, passing in the sky. Um,

Carolyn: We [00:25:00] high fived over

the Atlantic.

Faraz: High fived over the Atlantic. Exactly. Um, I'm really curious to see like what she's gonna get out of this, but I do think that there's a.

Not just an aesthetic component, but this sonic acoustic experience that I want to really consider of a designed, kind of purposeful mood that comes through this sound. And it doesn't necessarily have to be music,

um, but I want to think about it. That

application for our space,

Ella: That's cool.

Faraz: I'll give you another example, like the Irish Pavilion, they had this structure that they had created in, in a space, and there were speakers on the outside perimeter of the structure, like facing out, you know, for Passerbys as well as, uh. Speakers that were pointing inside in the middle of this structure.

So imagine this kind of like [00:26:00] circular, cylindrical like building and like there's seating inside and then outside you can walk around it. The outside acoustic experience was actually playing sounds of like the construction and like people and the environment of like, you could hear birds, you could hear conversations, you could hear like people like working with materials.

And then on the inside was like just these sounds of nature. And there was kind of like a, a bit of a mood happening inside just through whatever instruments they were using. And there was something really purposeful about that inside outside acoustic experience with different perspectives and what it meant for that sculpture or structure rather.

I don't know. I wanna figure out how to harness that magic.

Ella: Okay. I'm excited. you've set yourself a challenge, sir.

Faraz: Yeah. if the end result is give someone goosebumps right when they come in and not just 'cause it's cold. Um, but I want, that's, that's one of the things I Carolyn, what about you? Like what, what do you think? Like what, what do [00:27:00] you, was the big thing you wanna take? I.

Carolyn: you know, when we're thinking about product design and making something intentional and for us, and I have a lot of conversations as well on, you know, even turf design and how can we be really great partners and. Sort of rethink that.

What is the architect and designer really looking for? What, what's meaningful to them? And there was a quote I saw Making matter what too often

Faraz: Oh Yeah,

Carolyn: matter.

Faraz: that was so fucking

good.

Carolyn: Yeah. And it's just this idea of like, we don't need to just make shit. To make shit. What if we just made something. Really great and intentional and helpful.

And that's something that I found as a huge takeaway. Um, you know, when I think about my work and, and things that, that we wanna accomplish. And then I guess one other sort of big inspirational moment for me, and it was in [00:28:00] Germany, they had a whole exhibit dedicated to. Um, how architecture and, and I mean this was a common theme to be fair, but Germany's really blew me away.

It was a whole concept, and again, both, I mean, talk about a big ass screen. It was like literally a, a theater style of screens just showing the city and building, and then every so often you'd get this biophilic moment with trees and birds. Trying to emerge and coerce these things together and this idea of trees as jewels and Yeah, rather than the decoration of a city we should be building around the trees.

Faraz: Germany did it really,

Carolyn: yeah, it was really good. And I mean, it was the, it was that and then it, they literally had trees just growing right out of the pavilion. It was, you

know, both. Yeah. Both ver, you know, digital and then both physical, it, it, it was [00:29:00] really, really

Faraz: they had a, a really interesting, um, kind of projection mapping set up. So they, I think they had like. Seven or eight projectors, um, in the ceiling, but it's a larger kind of pavilion space. And they were projecting in front of you to your left, to your right, and on the floor. And so they're telling this story.

About the built environment, how we've covered so much of the spaces in cities. So this is, you know, like an architectural problem for the outside. And they were talking about the impact that it's had on, uh, the environments. Uh, and like the ambient temperature. Since we've covered those spaces, it's higher.

So they're using like this biophilic. narrative about uncovering some of those spaces using these trees as jewels. And then when you go to the, uh, adjacent space, so it's kind of like when you walk in, you have a central kind of [00:30:00] area where they're the pavilion, where they've got this huge projection map story to the right is like infographic, kind of like storytelling, that, that helps describe data.

And then on the opposite side

is the experiential component where. When you walk in,

the room is all black. It's dark, it's totally insulated, but then above you are space

heaters. So the, the temperature was something like 90 degrees. I dunno,

Carolyn, you're like, oh, this feels like Atlanta.

Carolyn: oh my gosh, it's, yeah, like I, I, that was one of those like, oh wait, this shouldn't have happened. 'cause it was 86 degrees. I was like. Ah, I feel good again. And then

I'm like,

oops.

Faraz: burning up.

Ella: but

that's interesting. So it was

not

just

sound, but they used like sensory,

like,

Carolyn: and,

It was heat mapping

Ella: Ooh, that's so

cool.

Carolyn: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here and it was a true honor of a career to join FRA at the Venice B in la, and I [00:31:00] just bouquets of gratitude

for that

Ella: Aw.

Faraz: of a lifetime.

thank you so much again for coming and joining us on this episode. We love having

you.

Carolyn: Chow Chow.

Faraz: Hey. What the hell do you think we should name this one.

How do I get to

Venice?

Ella: I like that

one.

Venice? Anyone?

Faraz: Should I move to Venice?

Ella: all right. I have a, serious one that's been kind of brewing in my head, which is better, not

more

Faraz: oh

Ella: like thinking about the future of things. How do you feel about that?

Faraz: That feels right.

well, you know, I guess it's that

time. So thanks everyone for listening to Sense of

Space. This episode was produced by Rob Schulte with help from associate producer Patricia Gonzalez.

Ella: Sense Of Space is a Turf podcast and is brought to you by the Surround Network. To hear more podcasts like this, please visit surround podcast.com.

Faraz: And make sure to leave us a great review wherever you like to listen. Podcasts. Make sure you tip your gondola driver. [00:32:00] Um, let them know what the best podcast is. They'll appreciate it. see you next time.

Ella: Okay. Bye.